Punishments for racist physical attacks

German Men Given Suspended Sentences in Racist Attack


One of the main reason why hate-crimes are getting so frequent in Germany is that people committing those crimes are getting off soo cheap (i.e. paying some euros as fine, few hours of community services, in exceptional case ending up in prison for little time).

Attacking someone *almost* to death is a serious crime in most of the countries world wide but Germany lets off these criminals so easily, and more so in crimes involving racist attacks. This is not a healthy trend...

German Justice (or lack of it ) strikes again

If and when the Munich U-Bahn attackers are convicted and sentence we can expect to see clear evidence of how Germany's "justice" system is über crap in this area.
Similarly this week, a load of fascists were found not guilty of various charges relating to an assault in Halberstadt, mainly as the police and state prosecutor fucked the cases up.

It s not JUST about sentencing and harsher sentnences for crimes is not the only way to solve the complex set of issues.

Due to the young age of the perpetrators "Jugendstrafrecht" had to be applied ... based on the Jugendgerichtsgesetz

I haven't been reading the papers much but I can tell you that the prosecutor has to link one specific person to one specific crime, he cannot accuse all of the defendants regardless and the court cannot punish them regardless. The DA has to prove that Nazi A. slugged punk C. on the nose, punk E. in the stomach and trampled on punk F.'s foot. In the melée even the punks probably never knew who or what hit them.

I am not defending the acquittal, just explaining the legal side.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3469434,00.html

But the immigrant attackers are given looong jail terms... this is German justice system which we should get used to... racist attackers who almost best someone to death are handed out a penalty of few hundred euros but immigrant attackers for a similar attack are given long jail terms...

It does seem to be a trend, subjectively at least.

We'll see what the white German pensioner gets who tried to push a young Greek girl under a train at Petuelring for the hideous crime of being a teenager and non-Aryan.

...
Although they were vicious attacks, it doesn't sound from the description as if the two victims were beaten almost to death, unlike the old man in the Munich subway. The sentences seem very light, but maybe they're no more lenient than sentences imposed on those guilty of equally vicious attacks for other reasons.

The question is, should the sentences for racist attacks be heavier than for equally vicious non-racist attacks?

Anybody ever find a translation for "mensenverachtend"? Is it meaningful that a word exists for a concept in German that I cannot find an adequate English word for?

If you mean "menschenverachtend" then inhuman is a pretty good translation (and is what LEO also says)

They've been given 12 year and 8 1/2 years each. According to the Spiegel report (below) the judge ruled that the nature of the attack (repeatedly kicking him in the head) meant that the attack should be treated as attempted murder rather than ordinary assault. Personally I'd find it hard to disagree with that decision.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/german...,564651,00.html

Its a combo of 2 words: 1) Menschen - People 2) Verachtend - To despise/To scorn.
So, the combo-word means "Hatred Towards People".

I'm sorry, but what is the difference between a "crime" and a "hate crime"? Aren't most crimes done out of hate? Shouldn't the sentence handed out be based on the crime committed and not the reasoning behind the crime???

I just don't see why people expect longer sentences for someone who, say, almost beats a guy to death for being black as opposed to beating a guy almost to death because they thought that they looked at them the wrong way. Both individuals are fucked up angry assholes, but I don't think the motivation can be taken into account (unless, of course, provocation is involved)

The reason there is specific punishment for hate crimes is to deter people from committing them. If there is no specific punishment for hate crimes, it will appear that the society does not recognize the danger, does not consider such crimes harmful, or does not care about the minority being targeted. In Germany, what is happening, and I don't know if people notice this, is that some of the hate crimes are passed off as personal crimes... like "he looked at me the wrong way"- but for a neo nazi, anything a non white person does can be construed as a personal offense. With foreigners knowing that it can be such a risk to be brown in Germany, no one in their right mind would go around inciting random German people. Truly, whenever I hear a German person explain away a mob beating of a single immigrant by a group Germans, I wonder if he/she is in denial that there is a problem.

I obviously don't know who you heard "explain away a racist attack" but I have never heard or previously heard of any person of any nationality here in Germany do that. Racist attacks are very much deplored in this society.

Racist acts of violence are officially deplored.
However, the police and state prosecutors are often slow to recognise such crimes as having a rascist or xenophobic background.
And a, purely co-incidental, tendency for example, to let key witnesses drift away from the crime scene while the cop argues whether or not he#s like süsser or scharfer senf on his leberkässemmel.

But that can happen elsewhere too. It was common in the UK before the Steven Lawrence Enquiry.

To explain further: I have found that it is quite common for most Germans to be somewhat embarrassed about these types of crimes. I, personally, have found that many people will downplay the risk to persons of color by explaining that "Germany is safe" of "the neo-nazis are in the east" or that such crimes are over reported or that the individual victim somehow did something to "provoke" the attack. I insist, when you are a person of color living in a country in which you know it is possible for you to be beaten up based on the color of your skin, what are the chances you would ever willfully do something that might bring a violent reaction?? In all, it just really seems as though many people are embarrassed about what attacks like this can make Germany look like to people outside of the country--- they are more personally offended or embarrassed about the "bad image" than they are about the fact that such things happen. It's a slight distinction, but can be quite significant if you are a person of color! The fact that Germans are upset when reading these reports does not mean very much. Why are they upset? Who do they feel sympathy for?

I think Una. that the "loss of face" yo mention is one of the reasons that it is gladly swept unde the carpet.

As the past year's Munich U-Bahn attacks show, anyone can be a victim of racist violence. Do we know how many violent racist attacks there are every year here? Whatever the number is, it's too many, but let's not pretend that racist violence is epidemic in Germany and is winked at by the populace. Only a miniscule number of Germans would ever feel even the slightest sympathy for the perpetrators of racist attacks, as they are reviled here. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the German people. My personal feeling is that sentences in general are too light here for various violent crimes, regardless of whether they are racially motivated or not.

BTW, on the subject of feeling sympathy, perhaps you might want to take the topic up individually with MT, who seems to me to have a lot of unwarranted sympathy for the Arabella Park perpetrators of racist violence against a German man than he does for their victim.

With regards to violent racist attacks, the real racism lies with the pepetrators of racist violence. Let's not forget that.

Conquistador, I will agree that racist violence is racist violence. And that all of it is bad. But no... not everyone is at equal risk for racial violence. I'm not trying to disrespect German people or make them look bad. I'm just being honest here. And the way I see it, a lot of German people tacitly justify some of the hate crimes by making reference to the "behavior" of foreigners, as if they somehow provoked it. I am not insulting the German people. I am being perfectly honest here. It is not a matter of demostrating support for racist beatings, but not instinctively condemning their actions, that brings my attention. Also, I do not condone violence against Germans! This is just plain wrong, and I understand the unique problem that some immigrant youth are posing to the german people. Clearly, a person who moves to another county and has the audacity to harm the citizens of that country simply has no place in the community and should be deported or imprisoned.

But we are not here to compare grievances, are we?

I do not by any means back down from my claim that there are in fact many "civilized" German citizens that would never beat up or insult a person of color themselves, but somehow do not really condemn the people who do these things to hard working honest immigrants who contribute to the system--- and would not stand up and be vocal against this kind of behavior. Where does this leave us?

In a society that values children, we punish pedophiles, don't we? We actually punish pedophiles extensively to show that we value children.
In a society that values order and law enforcement, we punish people who harm or kill police officers, don't we?
In societies that value the contributions that come with diversity, there are special punishments for people who target others because they come from diverse groups... whether that is nationality, religion, race, or age. Germany has some politically correct laws on its books. However, some Germans simply believe that auslander-types are not deserving of any special protection, even though they may have special "attention."

Bullshit.
You were the one clutching your pearls and crying to your mummy about personal smears on the homosexual marriage thread so leave it out here hey.

I said from the start that I saw no alternative to a serious custodial sentence and that has happenend.
I am not convinced it was attempted murder and I think there some issues that could / should have been mitagating were swept under the carpet at the trial.
As reported in that oh-so-dangerously anarcho-Marxist, hater of the German state, the Süddeutsche Zeitung.

But let's get back to thie issue of this thread.

Racist or xenophobic attacks aren't particular to Germany, they happen all over.
A case in point are the recent horriffic attacks on immigrants by South Africans.
But we're in Germany, so what happens in Germany is more immediate.

I think a key point is raised by the poster above.
Yes, racist or xenophobic acts of violence are deplored.
But that is when they are recognised as such.

Especially in smaller towns, it often needs preassure fro outside for the local "bürgerlich Mitte" to realise there is an issue.
The mayor of Mügeln was saying the mass attempted pogrom against Indians was something like "a bit of high jinx" until the media from the big cities put it in the spotlight.

Seems you fail to see the difference between the vicious serial libel directed at me on that thread (in violation of TT rules on personal attacks) and what I expressed as my opinion of your viewpoint, which is not a personal attack on you, rather it's obviously my own criticism of your stance on a current event/issue. If you can't see the difference, obtain some glasses. If you bizarrely think the opinion I expressed in my criticism of your viewpoint on the Arabella Park attackers' trial was inappropriate, report it to a moderator.

By what standard would Germany not be safe?

I challenge you to name any country in the world with a lower rate of violent crime, regardless of whether we are talking about people of an "unusual" skin color or for the general population. I have never seen any of the "neo-nazis" you are mentioning in Munich, nor have I ever heard of any murder of any black person here. Never mind, I have a hard time remembering ANY murders in Munich. Do you think you can safely say the same thing about, say, Chicago? Or any other large city in the world? I am curious.