No more Aufenthaltserlaubnis for EU citizens

I did indeed send an Email to the Ausländerbehörde, and got a snappy reply back which I followed up with a phonecall.

From 01 Jan 2005 there are no Aufenthaltserlaubnis for EU citizens. As mine expires in a few days time, I should theoretically have it renewed, and then I guess throw it away on 31 Dec 04.

However the unusually reasonable woman told me to just forget about it, and come in in January and get the "Bescheinigung über das gemeinschaftsrechtliche Aufenthaltsrecht gemäß § 5"

For this you need a passport and nothing else. It is "unbefristet" which I suppose means life long.

As she pointed out, I am now entitled to an unbefristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis instead of a 5 year one, but the unbefristet takes a few weeks to issue so the probability is it will be invalid before it is issued.

As I said, an unusually reasonable woman.

But I guess there must still be some kind of photo ID for Germany ? Or are they going to request that foreign people carry a particular kind of ID with them ?

Yeah, 200 yoyos in cash - used notes, non-sequentially numbered. Works everytime.

You can sometimes get a Sonderausweis which is what I have. I'm not sure if these are generally available though.
Katrina

Good news MAM, thanks for passing it on. My residence permit expires in Jan

very interesting. Thanks for info. So when mine expires (Aug 2005) I don't have to do anything at all? Like it!

'"Bescheinigung über das gemeinschaftsrechtliche Aufenthaltsrecht gemäß § 5"

whats that? Do I have one already (without realising) and do I need one?

I only renewed my Aufenthaltserlaubnis this year, so mine runs for another 5 years ! But by then, I will def be gone !

To me the aufenthaltserlaubnis for EU nationals always struck me as a complete waste of time...

Well I've had a quick google and it doesn't seem clear at all. Looks like the EU residency permits will be issued centrally. More news as I get it...
Bit of info here in English...
The muenchen.de site has no update so far...

Thanks! That's me being daft and not reading there!
Yeah another change will be for those of you from outside of the EU is that residency permits and work permits will not longer be managed by 2 authorities (Ausländerbehörde and Arbeitsamt) but will both be managed by the Ausländerbehörde.
Info in German from bund.de
Katrina

Katrina- how did you get the Sonderausweis? I need one. Oddly enough I get stopped and asked for ID more often than one would expect and get into the usual round-robin bullshit:

Them: You must be hevving ID
Me: NYC driver's license IS my ID
Them: Zet iss no good. You maast hev ze pessport
Me: Fuck no. Already had one pickpocketed and that was well before 9/11.
Them: Zet doesn't metter.
Me: Yes it does. I'm willing to carry the card you want me to but you won't give me the fucker.
Them: But you must be hevving ID...

Also, I want the card for my next dealings with NYC since my license expires in about 6 months.

woof.

I work for a NGO so I handed back my unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis to get a Sonderausweis, diplomats and their families or the lot at the EuroParliament/EU office in Erhardtstr. get them too. I really don't know if they are generally available, it is a bloody handy thing to have (H&M always ask for ID when you pay by card), nice at customs too.
EDIT: oh grtho you make me sound right *glam*

The Sonderausweis are only issued by the german government to people who work in certain public sector jobs jobs covered by international treaties. If you haven't got one, you ain't gonna get one.

Photocopy your passport and the relevant aufenthalts erlaubnis and carry that around...

so I still need to go in and get a

Bescheinigung über das gemeinschaftsrechtliche
Aufenthaltsrecht gemäß § 5

when my erlaubnis expires then?

this is all really confusing
I've already got an unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis - so do I need one of the new thingummys as well / instead?

the bastards!!

after years of fucking around in poccistrasse, getting fined once 30 Dm for being two days late, and having to take a day off work last year to get my unbefristet, the fuckers turn around and go " uh you dont need one". we knew that a decade ago, but you silly beamte wankers jut thought it would be fun to fuck off foriegners!!!

(ABOVE COMMENTS DIRECTED AT EVERY BEAMTE WHO HAS WASTED MY TIME FOR A PIECE OF PAPER WHICH I HAVE ONLY USED TWICE IN ELEVEN YEARS)

Gideon I know what you mean but at least it's a move in the right direction. And as Hazza says, they're a waste of time for EU citizens since we have the right of abode anyway.

Way back one of the more friendly beamten told me that they felt the same but that it could be argued that if you don't have a German driving licence then you have no German paper at all with your name and picture on it (as if I need one!!) Personally I reckon it's just a way to extort money from us and make us think twice about hanging around.

'WHICH I HAVE ONLY USED TWICE IN ELEVEN YEARS'

more often than I've needed it.

Did it cost anything? I can't remember but don't remember paying.

It's the same everywhere in the EU - I had to apply for a 5 year one in Sweden and then reapply after 5 years - so not just a German thingy. Presumably the new EU people still have to apply, oder? Aren't there special rules for them? (7 years?)

Can't remember ever needing it except
- as a substitute ID for my passport
- when renewing it.

Good point actually about the cost: it's five years since the last time and I guess I just assumed it cost me something since most visits to these places usually do (apart from the time). Maybe it is a free "service"...

"New" EU Citizens (Czech Rep, Hunagry etc) DON'T have the automatic right of abode as EMPLOYEES in Germany though they DO as SELF-EMPLOYED so they still have to jump through Poccistrasse "hoops" to get the thingy.

I think this new bit of paper if just further "Schikane" from the Beamte.

"Bescheinigung über das gemeinschaftsrechtliche Aufenthaltsrecht gemäß § 5"

Wha'? Aufenthaltserlaubnis is a lot easier to pronounce.

Long live the Aufenthaltserlaubnis!

Even in the good'ol USofA, if you move to a different State, you need a new drivers license. I got my permanent status 7 years ago and have never been to PocciHell except to help out friends.
I guess now it is officially the USofE.

Does anyone know if it applies to spouses of EU citizens? I just had to renew my Aufenthaltserlaubnis...oh what fun that was especially now that we had to register as married.

it used to be a couple of pages stuck into my passport...but this time...since Tom and I are married I guess...they gave me the same one as him...green folded paper with photo (the one for EU citizens). Mine now has the same expiry date as his, Sept. 2005.

Does that mean that neither of us need to renew next Sept? It's all so unclear...

Well I did indeed call back my good buddy in the Auslämderamt.

If you have an unbefristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis you need to do nothing.

If you have a befristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis you go in and get your Bescheinigung über das gemeinschaftsrechtliche Aufenthaltsrecht whenever you want next year.

If you have a befristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis that expires before the end of this year, theoretically you should renew it, but practically just live dangerously for the next few weeks, and get your Bescheinigung über das gemeinschaftsrechtliche Aufenthaltsrecht next January.

None of this applies if you're American, first the USA is not yet in the EU, and secondly most Germans hate Bush.

The late night TV on offer here would appear to suggest quite the opposite.

I disagree Don. 10 years ago bush was everywhere, but now the smoothie look is in. Unfortunately in my opinion.

Please can I clarify something...although as an EU citizen I dont need to get an official erlaubnis or genemigung, do I have to carry anything other than my UK Passport when travelling.

The reason I ask is that when I tried to fly from Munich to London yesterday the charming man on the customs desk was not going to let me go through as I had no Unbefristet certificate in my passport and no other piece of paper on me proving I didnt need a permit. Mind you, he also didnt know the UK was in the EU but he was prepared to throw me out of the airport.

Many thanks

Obviously an idiot ... or Bavarian. He expected you to have a certificate allowing you to live in Germany when you were flying OUT of the country?! And he wanted to keep you here because you didn'T have such a piece of toilet paper?!
As a Brit citizen, you can come and go as you please. You just need your passport to cross the border because the UK has not signed up to Schengen.

I did admit to having lived in Germany for 6 years and that is when he got all official and stroppy. He (and his Supervisor) refused to accept the passport on its own but eventually relented but said next time I would not be getting through but I am not 100%Vsure on what exactly they expect me to have with me next time in addition to my passport !

Wow! 2 Bavarian idiots in a single shot! Cool!

Don't tell them anything!

If they ask you a direct qiestion, one word answers with the most general information is the way to go.

Yup. You baffled them with facts and logic. Remember, this is officialdom you're playing with. German officialdom.

Do I need the so-called "Bescheinigung über das Aufenthaltsrecht" on me whenever I have to travel ? I really cant believe a valid UK passport is not enough on its own.

You need your passport to fly to the UK as it is not a Schengen country. No further paperwork required.

what did you do to get this reaction from them? all you need is a passport, a 'grüß gott' and a smile at the desk and away you go.

you don't officially have to have that Bescheinigung at all, let alone when you travel

Thanks for asking this marka, mine runs out in Feb - at the same time as my passport.

@Lassie

It was when I told them that I lived in Germany that the problem arose. I am sure if I had said I am just passing through that nothing would have been said but the point they were making was that "You live in Germany, you need a permit and your passport". So thats what I want to clarify. Do I need some form of permit (on a piece of paper or stamped in my passport ?)

I just did a bit of Googling and found this - "Für die Ausstellung der Bescheinigung über das Aufenthaltsrecht, der Aufenthaltserlaubnis-EU und des Visums werden keine Gebühren erhoben.

This appears to me to mean that I need to get a permit as itstates that "For the issuance of the permit..." which make me think there is something I need along with my passport.

I am getting a migraine !!

A "discreet" envelope?

You do NOT need to get anything else as a British Citizen living in Germany.

It may be that you can fight against it, but I also got asked for some proof of residence permit at Schiphol on Sunday (so it's not only the UK where it's happening at the moment), coming in with a British Passport and a ticket with final destination in Munich. I had the green thingy on me, so no trouble producing it; I did assume that I at least would have been subject to a grilling if I didn't produce it.

This has happened to me about 5 times in the 17 years I've been living here.

Dear Editor

Can we PLEASE create an easy-to-follow flowcharted solution and make a sticky post for this old chestnut???

I am of the opinion that these kind of questions and demands for a legally non required piece of paper are a hinderence on the right of EU Citizens to free movement.
Unfortunately given the hysteria about "illegals", it would be a hard one to push.

Right - so my 3 year Aufenthaltstitel runs out in May. I am 100% UK passport holder etc, so no need to renew and I can just ignore the issue.

However...

Does this mean that I am gonna get morons hassling me at the airport after this date trying to claim it has "run out"?? This will wind me up good and proper. So do I:

1. Rip the buggery thing out my password (might be messy)

2. Print something extra out and keep it with my passport?

Anyone got a good link for a page I can print out and just stuff in my passport, so that when Herman the pea-brained German border guard starts busting my chops I can stick the paper up his nose and prove the 1st Jan 2005 ruling?

You have a buggery thing in your passport ?

That is probably going to cause more trouble at the border actually.

Wassat all about? I assume we don't need that?

JE, I am very surprised the one running out is in your passport.

As a British citizen I have been a resident in Germany for 25 years...

When I first got here they asked "how long you wanna stay".
Me: "1 year" - they "OK we give you for 2 years".

2 years later: "its me again" - "OK we give you maximum which is 5 years"

5 years later: "its me again" - "OK we give you unlimited as this is now possible".
So that must have been around 1989.

Nothing was ever entered into my Britsh passport. The only thing my current British passport
has is a number of stamps from US immigration. Each time I reenter Germany & just
hand over my passport & look them in the eye. Never anything more happened.

I still do carry the tatty old Aufenhaltserlaubnis with me (costs nothing to do so)
but I never produce it (in fact I once had to send a copy of it back in 1989 when registering
my glider in my name - normally it is not permitted for non GY citizens to register an
aircraft in Germany but I applied for & got an exception).

Only time I EVER had difficulties about residing in Germany was a few years ago at Denver airport (USA)
when departing - check-in clerk saw I was British with destination Germany & wanted to see
my ongoing ticket to UK which of course I didnt have. Took some discussions to convince
them that we EU citizens have freedom of movement etc.

So thats it - nothing in my passport & never asked for anything.