Loss of traditional Bavarian culture

Surely with Starbucks now entering, Munich is gradually turning into the Prague of Germany. Full of fast food joints and sh1tty coffee shops. Fact. Where did the bavarian face of Munich go ?

Do you not think that there's room for everyone to play together? Traditional Bavarian and foreign muck alike.

Was/is Bavaria known for good coffee? Now if Budwiser becomes the "King of Beers" in Bayern then we gots us a problem...

...

Budweiser will be the beer of the World Cup, thats enough. Starbucks is just like McDonalds to me , its sh1t coffee, just like McDonalds is sh1t food.

hmm.. you can hardly blame a handful of irish pubs for ruining bavarian culture. you can, of course, blame them for giving ex-pats an easy opt out from local culture, but that's another question.

Starbucks gets my vote... the others are already established but we can stop this one in it’s tracks. Glass bottle, petrol & a rag... Job done. One less trashy brand blighting our Toytown.

bavarian coffee... that over-strong stuff with tinned milk? no thanks.

fair point about Bud being the official beer of 2006 world cup - that is a kick in the teeth for germany, surely? i spose they are just not taking it seriously, did i not read somewhere here that they aren't even selling real Bud at the stadiums? that they are using Holsten or something? (northern pish in itself, i know)

"a taste of irish culture at fifty times the price"

what piece of barvarian culture has been lost?
a coffee bar replaces an italian restaurant, or a macdonalds moves in where an asado steak house was? (fictive exsamples but you get my drift). munich is slightly bavarian tinged but has and allways will be an internationaly orientated city.

these businesses wouldn't be successful without the patronage of Bavarian clientele (I work with Bavarians, two of which in particular like Murphys), so doesn't that mean Bavaria is giving its own face away?

what face? who shops at loden frey? who eats in the augustiener on the kaufingerstrasse? munich has hardly changed in the eleven years i've known it. bitch about losing the GAP though... replaced by a swedish firm.

bavaria is full of italians with their lovely coffee. That is part of bavarian culture - but that will change if people start going to other caffinated beverage establishments.

My vote is McDonalds. There is a reason why it's called 'Junk Food'. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who are stupid enough to buy this rubbish. You would think it's down to good marketing but Ronald McDonald anybody???

As for the World Cup and gnats p*ss (sorry bud) there is a discussion going on in Bayern that the Bavarian breweries may all go on strike during the championship unless a compromise can be arranged.

@gideon - not sure if that was directed at me and if so, perhaps I was unclear, but I'm agreeing with you. Was trying to pick/make a point. I don't think Bavaria is giving away anything.


surely you don't think that was always the case, and that someone didn't (doesn't still) bitch about the Italians invading Bavaria? (or is it okay as long as they are only making coffee? )

Cheers Greg. Knew someone out there had a logical way of thinking.

kin Amerikanskis.

kebab shops.
i bet the boss-eyed dorftrottels foam at the mouth when they come down from the hills to go lederhosen shopping and see these.

you think the bavarians would have got used to it by now as it's been happening for the last 2,000 years or so

so you say that bavarians adapting to include italian restaurants and coffee houses is ok, but bavarians developing a taste for McDs or subway is wrong? culture is culture, whether its good or bad is irrelevant. you might not like it, but it is no less valid as an evolution of the bavarian way of life to taking on board italian coffee culture (which is not as prevalent as crappy coffee and tinned milk, all the same)

And ya (or Ja) what about those damn Thai, Indian, sushi spots? Destroying Bavaria... maybe we should drop Curry Night and make it Lieberkase Night!

Trash latecomer. Italian coffee is good and respected, its presence is based on quality. There's nothing for McDonalds or Starbucks here, local place and Italians are local enough (aside from at the Fest where they're a bunch of annoyingly p1ssed up , letching wänkers.).

And not to mention the 25% of Munich's population that is non German/bavarian?

apparently the Bavarians feel otherwise, or they wouldn't be buying it. these people are mad for McDonalds (something I actually don't understand. ew)

The real culprit is the multi-national companies that employ the people here. They bring in their own work culture and spread the madness. MickyD's/Starbuck's etc. are only a byproduct of servicing the changing Nationality of faces in Munich.
Go out into the country, Bayern is alive and well.

not sure how you can defend the importing of one culture and then attack another for destroying Bavarian culture


well if there is nothing for them then they'll go bust and move out. Obviously hasn't happened. You're just a snob. It's no different to BMW selling cars in America

A bunch of expats using an expat message board (which specifically prohibits German speaking members) to discuss the loss of Bavaria's cultural identity. Interesting...

@Jimbo Yeah kinda surreal innit.

@3 Lions That's the main point. Especially all those Prussians out there

how is its presence based on quality? what has the quality of something got to do with it? when you say there is "nothing" here for mcdonalds, do you want to tell them to close their 20+ restaurants in the munich area or shall i? jury is still out on starbucks, and if it doesn't work out they will retreat, like donatos pizza...

quite.

What has quality got to do with it. Speaks volumes. Legend comment.

There is a huge difference between something that adds cultural value and something that destroys culture. Relating McDonalds to culture is the same as saying that a sewage works adds cultural value.

who's to stop it if the people want it? who should determine, if not the people, what is cultrally valuable? (note that above I said I also dislike McDonalds - the local (i.e., Bavarian) fascination with I just don't understand)

next thing you know, the books they read will be controlled. wait, that's been done...

and we'll invent a new language, newspeak, has to be easier than german...can honestly say I've never been to McDonalds in Munich , nor will I be venturing to Starbucks. Nor have I been to these expat bars that everyones going on about. Fact.

This may be an expat forum which excludes non english speakers, but don’t think for a minute that no English speaking Germans come on this site.

Secondly, there have been a couple of threads about intergration of non-germans into the German culture etc. Are some of you really saying that as an expat, you should show no interest in the local culture or way of life ? Insular & scary if people do think that. I go to expat bar like everyone else, but that does not mean I should show no interest in whats affecting the town I live in and hope to do so for a very long time to come.

Keep Munich a Toytown

who is saying that?

@potbelly

The same goes for the vote this weekend about building new skyscrapers in Munich. I for one am totally against this. The last thing Munich needs is another giant glass/concrete monstrosity blocking the skyline.

What I also appreciate is that EVERYONE who is registered in Munich gets to vote. Shame they couldn't do the same with starbucks.

admin says: only EU citizens can vote on it.

@Butter bean. Fair point about the people deciding. But there's no harm in raising the issues to heigthen peoples awareness

AS for your second post...


Maybe I missed the point ( A comman failing ) but wasn't that the gist of this message

@ butterbean, i agree with you totaly as well! who are we to judge what or what is culture. how many people here could hoestly say that they have a good working knowledge of what is or is not barvarian culture? maybe somebody here should create a barvarian test for toytownwers... if you dont like macdonalds, whatever, but i love taking my kids there and its a friendly family atmosphere, as opposed to a fair few non-american establishments, but if it didn't have a market it wouldn't survive (gap=rip, so to say) thats the bare economic fact. i personaly find the idea of sitting in any coffee house and paying 5 euros for something i can make better at home perverse, but i'm not going to call it lack of culture. and what awareness are you trying to increase?

@potbelly Of course English-speaking Germans visit this site. Bloody good thing too. And that they don't is not what I took Jimbo to be saying. just interesting that none (that I am aware of) has yet contributed to this thread.

@potbelly - I see. I understood Jimbo's comment to mean that as non-Bavarians, it's really not our place to judge what is/isn't and should/shouldn't be Bavarian culture and where's it gone, etc.

@gideon - oh, I've taken many a niece/nephew to McDs and found it a godsend. I'm just not a fan of fast food. Bidness is bidness.

Yep, Agreed totally gideon. Prague for example improved heaps as a city by littering it with McDonalds. As I'm sure Latvia, Estonia , Slovenia etc will. Its no doubt in my eyes that in keeping with tradition and improving cultural attraction these places should have McDonalds and Starbucks installed down their otherwise dull high streets.

it's their choice. you might not like it, but it's not yours.

so alan your suggesting that everywhere should be retained in its pre war state as a sort of traditionalist disneyland? only to be enjoyed buy the moneyed and cultured elite? macdonalds does not litter the place, if you've ever been to salzburg you'll know what i mean. and who are you to cuturaly judge, an artist, a writer do you deal daily with esthetic desisions. and even if you did wha shouldn't an estonian have the chioce of eating at a macdonalds. or should it be back to good old russian days with borsht and cabbage?

@gideon.
Lovin it.

@gideon

True, but at the same time if I wanted to live in Frankfurt/Washington/Birmingham then I'd move there. I like Munich because it does retain traditional values - not full of ugly skyscrapers - not trying to copy the culture of most other European cities. The fact that Munich is how it is, is why I like living here so much.

And yes, even 'grumpy' bavarians have a certain charm.

yes i see your opinion but munich has to adapt to survive. i personaly dont think the skyscrapers are that bad, they're not in the town centre next to the rathaus (yet - and they never will be) and eventualy they'll be full of new companies providing new jobs probably in the service sector, which will be he reason for growth in munich. and i dont know how long you've been here but in the 13 yearsi've known munich and the 11 i've lived here, i'veseen a fair few changes from what was 'traditional' barvarian culture - such as shops shutting on weekdays at 5:30 or 6 pm on a weekday and 12 noon or one on a saturday, now that was real barvaria! a forced rest on saturday afternoon. a much stricter adhrence to the christian holidays - no music after 12 etc. a realy crap service industry - 6 weeks to get a telephone installed. but things have to change, and although i'm very much 'embedded' into german culture my german family finds the changes good, and a sign that munich wants to compete with the frankfurts, the londons and provide my childrens generation good jobs not just jobs for the tourists who want to see hanssel and gretel do knee slapping dances while drinking out off steins.

I’m sorry but being the strong economist that BAVARIANS are known to be they should simply push to advertise there own culture as the Americans have done and other mass conglomerates.

If Austria can put a strict law on how many McDonald’s it holds in each city Im’ pretty sure THE STRONG DEUTSCHERS can also!.

Why do we keep blaming the rest of the world for the crap it exports??? to Europe! Germans were never good at making coffee anyway. Let the Italians do that job and the Americans import there shit Star Bucks flavoured caramel crap coffee.

There now that’s off my chest I feel a whole lot better -

ok so munichs füked, aside from the mountains and skiing which they surely cant build McDonalds and Starbucks on, munichs time is up. move on Toytown Tallinn - The Future. Fact.

the bavarians have much more in common with italians than the seattle/sanfranciso coffee coming in. They also have a strong cultural connection with them which extends much further than a 50 year engagement.

It is just part of globalisation i know, but it really pisses me off that every place becomes more the same. If you want to be a fat macdonalds eater, go to texas. If you want to sit around drinking crap coffee, go to seattle (and drink starbucks). if you want a tasty leberkaese im semmel mit suse oder mittel sharf senf, go to karlsplatz!

However I am not really opposed to foreign cultures having a presence. I just hate it when they don't even try to be special. What is special about another MacD or StarB? Why not just have an "American Style Coffee House", and then let it be something special. I like a good yankee burger, but hate McD's and the King. There are already loads of places for good burgers in Munich, and also good places for coffee (and maybe even the same style) but why would you import the worst quality and bring it here (and every other place in the world).

( Edited) Rant over.

I was looking for "all the above" option. I would also add curry houses to the list or is it including under "Other expat holes.."? I am sure currywurst wasn't exactly part of bavarian kitchen few years ago