I am wondering how many people in the Heidelberg area have bought a car. I am wondering if it is necessary to buy a car in this area or if public transportation is good enough. If we move to the Heidelberg we will want to travel around and I know there are trains, but I am not sure if they are sufficient.
thanks~~

Depends on where you want to travel to.

Seriously, within Heidelberg, public transport is good enough to not use a car. I use mine for grocery shopping on the weekends, but that's about it.

I prefer trains for medium-distance travel. That is within a couple hundred miles. It gets a bit tedious depending on where i'm going to though.

How do you go to IKEA?
Or you want to go to a little town in the middle of nowhere?
You can't rely completely on public transportation.
What about car sharing? http://www.carsharing.de
I would consider it.

We would want to travel around Germany and other countries nearby (France, Amsterdam)- mostly the travel would be around Baden-Wurttemberg on the weekends. Do the trains work like Amtrak trains here in the US? I mean is there one train company that travels throughout Europe? If so, then we might just rely on the train to travel outside of Germany...

Nope, usually (at least) one train company per country. Lots of interoperation though - you can travel directly from Germany to e.g. Paris, to Northern Italy, to Amsterdam and so on...

And yeah, about the car - it's good to have one for certain stuff. Not something you need everyday really, but it's still nice to have one

Thank fuck no. The trains over here really work, not like Amtrak at all. The trains in Switzerland are run by 200 different companies, but Deutsche Bahn could sell you a tick from Lisbon to Tromso via Kleine Sheidegg if thats what you wanted.

They are? Don't you mean Europe?

Yes, No!

Nobody needs a car; it's purely the convenience factor of having your car there when you want it. Trains are more comfortable and faster over medium distances. If you want to go to Ikea, take the bus there and get them to deliver the furniture – much more convenient than traipsing all over their warehouse and then lugging all the boxes yourself. A little town in the middle of nowhere? A surprising number still have train stations, the rest have buses. Alternatively, hire a car for the day. That may seem luxurious, but calculated over ten years it's much cheaper than purchasing a car, and without the stress and worry of maintenance and repair and parking. And/or use the car-sharing scheme, where you pay by the hour for short trips to the supermarket.

I genuinely have no idea why so many people own their own car.

Switzerland originally never had a "federal" state-run operator, but instead formed a huge number of private companies each operating only a couple lines, usually within one Kanton.
There has been some consolidation, today there are pretty much like two or three "big", another dozen "medium" and well over hundred "small" operators.

I have a car, because I allways had a car. And I want to show my neighbours that I can afford a car.
Normally I use my bike.

I have one that i jointly own with two other people (who use it more than I do). I don't really need it, and i survived without one for a couple years.

Quite a number of people really need their car for commuting though, because some public transport connections are simply horrendous regarding travel times (Heidelberg to Walldorf comes to mind in this area).

List of railway companies in Switzerland ... SBB

And I'm sure they're all impressed, since only the drème de la crème of society own cars. Oh, wait...

I could afford a car, but considering that Germany has excellent public transport and bicycle networks combined with good land use policies, I prefer those modes of transport. Especially when I consider that the money I save by not owning a car pays for multiple major vacations per year even on my modest income.

The train, bus and tram networks in Germany are plenty if you are living in a reasonably-sized city such as Heidelberg. And not having to hunt and pay for parking is a godsend. You'll find that for most destinations there are trains at least every hour, often much less than that depending on the time of day and day of week. And it's not like Amtrak in the sense that Germany's (and western Europe's) trains are generally punctual and modern.

Thanks for the link. So it's nowhere near 200, after all.

Yep... you're right. And nobody needs a TV, radio, stereo, microwave, coffeemaker, hair dryer, motorized lawn mower... Oh, and let's not forget the police, firemen, doctors, people with two dogs living out in the country like me ... 'cause NOBODY needs a car?!

Something to consider: For me to get to my nearest train station, it would take me about 1.5 hours using 3 buses, according to the official bus schedule. And then another 45 minutes to Stuttgart. I can drive direct to Stuttgart in about an hour, park at one of the many convenient parking lots just outside the inner city and take the local train downtown. Time saved = about 2.5 hours total return trip

For me to get to my in-laws 170km away, then after getting to the train station I would need to change at least 2 more times, up to 4 times depending on time of day, and travel a total of 4 hrs 45 mins up to 6 hours. I can usually drive there in about 2 hours, 2.5 with heavy traffic. Time saved = at least 4 hours total return trip

Heidelberg is 1 hr 45 minutes by car. 3.5 to 4 hours by bus&train. That means that if I want to play tourist and spend a day in Heidelberg, then I can take the car and have a whole day there, or take public transit and get to spend maybe 2 hours seeing the sights before I have to go home. Doesn't make much sense to spend 7-8 hours travelling for a day trip, does it? But 3.5 hours is do-able for a single day outing. Time saved = at least 3.5 hours

I actually did take the train&bus to Switzerland to visit friends in the village where we used to live... once... and never again! It took me over 8 hours with 6 changes, while driving usually takes about 3.5 to 4 hours.

So to folks trying to decide whether or not to get a car, I'd say first take a close look at the public transit schedules. Pay particular attention to whether you can get back later in the evening. And if you want to explore the countryside, then be aware that many smaller train stations have been closed down and only limited regional bus service is available. Make a list of places you want to visit, and find out how long it would take to get there and back. Often you'll find that the cost savings of taking public transit is outweighed by the need to pay for extra overnight stays because of the increased travelling time.

Obviously if you live downtown close to a train station, then getting around to other bigger towns and cities is easier. But as soon as you are further away then a car becomes much less of a luxury unless you have lots of time to waste and don't mind doing more overnight stays instead of day trips. You'll also have a tough time if you want to see anything off the beaten path.

If, for example, you want to go see the beautiful Lichtenstein Castle then you can drive there in about 2 hrs from Heidelberg. As for public transit, the official answer I kept getting was:


After stubbornly trying all sorts of times every day of the week, I finally found a route on Saturday taking over 3 hours with 3 changes. But you can't get back the same day, apparently.

You can check schedules using www.bahn.de or online bus schedules like www.vrn.de

Of course, nobody needs to go see a castle, eh?

Fascinating. But you chose to live in a place that had no train station. The OP is an a position where s/he can choose to live somewhere with decent public transportation links.

If the OP lived right next door to the Heidelberg train station, they still would not be able to make a day trip to the Lichtenstein Castle, and many other wonderful places to visit, if they were to rely solely on public transit. The OP specifically wrote that they want to "travel around", too. If all they want to do is stick to the crowded, popular places and have time and money to burn for extra overnight stays then sure, take the bus. And pay for taxis to get home from the grocery store every week, and rent cars on weekends every time you want to go sightseeing...

As for my choosing to live here... this is where Hubby's job is. And this is where we found a nice house to buy with 2000 sq. meters of land. Hard to find that kind of property in the town. And when you do, it is a titch on the expensive side. So the amount we saved on our place by moving outside of town and not taking cabs and renting cars actually will pay for our cars for the next 20+ years. Interesting, eh?

The same reasoning applied to our last rented apartment. We could have lived in town, but then our rent would have been at least 300 euro more per month than what we ended up paying. So I guess some folks prefer to spend their money on rent and taxis or rental cars, or else extra overnight stays and waste time on public transit, rather than spend less on housing and be completely mobile. It's a free world, and you can spend your time and money however you like. Truly fascinating.

Well, we're agreed then: it's a free world. You choose to spend less money on rent but more time and money on transportation, I choose to spend more on rent and less on transportation. We're both happy.

I take issue with your "wasting time on public transit" comment though. To me, sitting in a metal cage staring blankly at the road ahead is dead time. Stretching out on a train and reading, working or sleeping seems to me to be a more efficient use of time. My train may get me in an hour later, but if I've done all my work then that's time saved overall. And, of course, to the destinations that the OP is talking about, the train will frequently be quicker.

Nope, I actually choose to spend less money on housing, and less time getting to my destinations so I have more time at my destination, and I'm willing to pay a bit more to be totally flexible in terms of schedules and routes. You choose to spend more money on rent, spend more time getting to your destinations which means less time there, you don't mind being less flexible and not being able to easily do little detours to see something interesting off the main route along the way. Which is the better arrangement? I'd rather be reading, working, or sleeping already at my goal than on a train. But if you prefer stretching back in a train compartment rather than on a lounge chair next to the pool, or being out exploring Roman ruins, or having fun in a nice big bed, then heck, as long as you're happy...

As for getting to your sightseeing goal faster with public transit... it only works that way if you are calculating from one main train station to another, and then the time is usually about the same. But as soon as you are talking about something a little more exotic, like Herrenchiemsee, then the difference becomes obvious. If you take the train from Heidelberg, and I start driving at the same time from the main train station, I will have anywhere from 2-6 more hours to explore the castle and island than you will if we return to the same place at the same time. But you'd rather read a book than see more of the place, I guess. As long as you're happy...

Wow, you must visit a lot of castles. Most of the people I know spend most of their travel time commuting to and from work, where public transport has numerous advantages over the car.

You're still getting confused over the core issue here. The OP asked if it's worth buying a car. You read this as "Should I ever drive?". I said way back in my first post that hiring a car occasionally and/or joining a car-sharing scheme would be a good idea. It's the huge financial investment of purchasing a car followed by the costs and responsibilities of owning the car that I'm not so convinced about.

I have survived in and around Heidelberg since 1999 without a car... so it's possible and public transport is great in my opinion.

Thanks for the rousing debate guys. I can see both points of view. I was hoping that the consensus would be that public transportation is sufficient and it seems to be if you live by a train/bus station. I would like to avoid buying a car but I am afraid of missing out on the cool parts of Germany that are 'off the beaten path' so to speak. I guess I just want it all! Well, it seems that car sharing might be the perfect solution, so thanks for the links to those sites. On another note, the train system sounds intimidating as far as traveling outside of Germany... guess I will cross that bridge when I get there.

Thanks for all the input!

It's a lifestyle deabte.
IF you were going to "miss out" on places by not having a car (you wouldn't) then you could always hire one whn needed.


Heh? Intimidating?
A different domestic price structure maybe but it#s all broadly similar.
Between the regulars here you can ask just about any question about foreign train travel and if you didn#t get an answer here you could alsways go to Lonely Planet.

It's not intimidating at all. All that talk about however-many-private-companies there are in Switzerland missed the point that it's a single network (SBB) with a single pricing structure. You could travel for months around Switzerland without realising you're using different companies. Just buy a ticket, either online in advance or at the station before you travel, jump on the train and off you go.

Yes I was being a bit cynical with the Lisbon to Tromso example. The point is that Deutsche Bahn will sell you a single ticket from A to B, and it doesn't matter how many countries, or how many train companies you need to travel with, the ticket covers it, takes minutes to issue, and is in no way complicated.

A direct train from Paris to Amsterdam would involve 3 countries, 3 different rails sstems, but you wouldn't even have to change train.

Well I do have a car & drive to work, but if I go anywhere like Garmisch, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris etc then I take the train, it is much easier in my opinion, depending on the day and time, but on a weekend for example if you want to go after work Friday then you will get caught up in a lot of traffic, apparently Bipa doesn't get caught in stau's . Anyway it is much more relaxing sitting on a train drinking a beer and knowing when you will arrive at your destination, rather than wonder just how long you will be stuck on the autobahn. Public transportation here is more than sufficient~might be a bit difficult if you decide to live in the arse end of nowhere, but even most small villages around Heidelberg have a fairly decent bus system, and travelling in Europe is very easy by train, and IMO you have a more cultural experience going by train.

The question whether or not to own your own car is a highly personal one. The first consideration is financial. If someone can't afford it, then he can't buy it and maintain it no matter what other justifications are stated.

Assuming there's enough disposable income, then as MonksTown wrote, it becomes a matter of lifestyle and priorities. Folks who have no interest in exploring off the beaten path, who mainly travel just to work and back, and spend weekends at the local pub or at home in front of the telly don't really put a high value on mobility. They may prefer to spend their money on renting in the big city, and at local restaurants, bars, clubs, and taxis home. They might do one or two trips a year, and prefer to have everything pre-planned and organised for them. These folks will probably be better off doing guided bus/train tours rather than exploring on their own. Or they just grab a flight to a beach.

For people who are interested in doing their own thing, exploring the curious nooks and crannies of the countryside, and don't wish to be stuck in a large tour group playing follow the leader, then mobility becomes more important. Total flexibility has a higher value when you want to be able to set your own schedule, and not worry about the last bus or train home, or needing to find a place to stay overnight because you want to stay an hour or two longer. Granted, you can rent a car, or get in a car sharing scheme to try to mitigate the costs. But even those forms of transportation have their limitations.

You're at home on Saturday, and you read in the newspaper or hear about a village fair taking place 40km away. It is 1pm and the local car hire place closed at 12:30 so you can't easily rent a car. (using my nearest Eurocar rental agency as example) You call the car sharing group and find that no cars are available near you. So you take the bus to the car sharing pick-up point a bit further away, or maybe a taxi. Time and money is spent just getting to the car, when you could already have hopped into your own car and been there. Or maybe you decide not to go at all. That is the difference between total freedom and having to pre-arrange every car trip. And sometimes, especially during busy periods, you can't get a car at the last minute without spending lots of time and effort.

How about a concrete example? Let's say you live right next to the Heidelberg train station, and want to go see Speyer and experience the Emperor's Table which is a 3-day festival. You hop in your car and you're there in about half an hour. There's also direct S-Bahn running every half hour on Saturday afternoon, taking only a bit longer, so you take the S-Bahn. You have a great time, and stay a bit longer until the festival starts closing down at around 1am. Guess what? Your last ride left at 0:33 and now you have to wait until 4:26 for the next one. Perhaps you made the last train on time, and now you're stuck with a bunch of drunks for the next 1.5 hours, have to change twice - Schifferstadt and Mannheim, and are feeling very uncomfortable about safety. Ah... but as leky says, what a cultural experience! Or you just hop in your car and are home again in half an hour.

Oh, and it isn't difficult to avoid traffic jams. Radios and navigation systems do a good job of letting you know what's going on. Quickly you get a feel for which areas tend to get jammed at what times. And on Sundays and special holidays, trucks aren't allowed on the highways from 0:00 to 22:00 making your drive home usually quite easy and relaxed. The occasional traffic accident will delay buses just as much as cars, but I can listen to my radio or CD's or even take the next exit instead of being stuck in a bus. And the train strikes truly made me grateful to own my own car since I did not have to change any of my plans.

So in the end, let each person decide for themselves what sort of life they want to lead, and how much they are able or willing to pay for freedom of movement. I would suggest to the OP that when looking for a place to live, they not automatically exclude anything off the transit lines. You might miss out on a fantastic place to live. Most smaller train stations provide free parking, so you could combine car and train for daily commutes and thus have the best of both worlds. And you'll be totally flexible when deciding what you want to do for a weekend, be it shopping or sightseeing. Or you may decide you prefer being right downtown and enjoy the hustle and bustle of busy streets and lots of amenities within easy walking distance. In that case, perhaps you decide to make do without a car. You can always change your mind later about the car, but moving to new housing is a little tougher and more involved. So concentrate first on getting a comfortable place where you'll love to live for a while, and worry about the transportation issue as a secondary point. The best transit connections in the world won't make you happy if you hate your own home and shudder every time you open the front door.

You need to balance up the TRUE costs. If you go to a festival in Oberbumsenhausendorf twice a year, maybe the last bus does leave around 8.
So book into a local pension for €30. Or share a taxi with friends or people you meet there. Or sleep on the field. Or hey, keep on partying till the first bus goes the next day. Cheaper than owning a car and you can drink as well.

I don't deny it occurs. but I am consistently shocked by people who say they NEED a car.

I love it! I have finally met two people who are even more parsimonious than my German Father- & Mother-in-law. They are retired mountain Swabian farmers who still have chickens and plant their own potato fields and have a large vegetable plot, and own a car. I'm shocked!

But perhaps I shouldn't be so amazed, since the in-laws live in the Zollernalbkreis which has 725 privately registered cars (not business) per 1000 adults. (as of Jan 2006). Where I live, it is only 688 privately registered cars per 1000 adults. Given their demographics, university towns tend to have the lowest number, and the Heidelberg Stadtkreis (city proper) comes in at 411 private cars per 1000 adults.

All together, there were over 5,550,000 privately owned cars registered in Baden-Württemberg as of January 1, 2006. Bavaria has over 7,500,000 cars registered, though I couldn't find a breakdown on private vs. business. Munich Landkreis comes in at a whopping 941 PKW per 1000. They must all be extremely profligate and wastrels, since nobody needs a car!

Err... so how does it feel to go around being permanently shocked?

(sources: Statistisches Monatsheft Baden-Württemberg 5/2007 ; Bayerischen Landesamt für Statistik und Datenverarbeitung )

I suggest that you buy a bike when you arrive (whether you end up buying a car or not). There are lots of used bikes available, and it's a great way to travel around Heidelberg.

I am not having a go at your situation Bipa, it's choices you made, fair enough.

But I think people need to weight up the true cost / benefit ratio before having their own car.

Well, the Zollern-Alb-Kreis is a bit different than the Rhein-Neckar-Kreis, to be fair. Just by population density alone

Sure, you could drive to a festival in Speyer by car. Do you drink? There's only one layover on the 0:33 S-Bahn btw, at Schifferstadt, and it takes 60 minutes, not 90.

I'm someone who tends to travel a bit more "off the beaten path" myself. And i never do it by car. Wanna hike around looking for Limes leftovers? There's an S-Bahn straight to Osterburken. Check out the rather awesome Lahn valley between Limburg and Wetzlar? 3 hours, and two train switches. Move about in Alsace? Same thing, opposite direction. Hell, even going to the Zollernalbkreis, Rottweil for carnival or something? 3 to 3.5 hours, same as with a car with the usual jams on that route. One layover in Stuttgart.

My daily commute is by now a 120-140 km round, and i'm not gonna spend 10 Euro per day on gas. I take my car to work in Walldorf (occasionally), since i'm not gonna do a 45-minute bus tour through the next three towns, and i'm reimbursed for the travel.

For travel outside of Germany or longer stretches within Germany, the train is the bomb! Gas prices are so outrageously high, with a bit of planning or a Bahncard 50, a car cannot compare. Some prefer to save money by living out in the boonies, I prefer to pay more to live in town.

I have a DL, but driving in Germany is stressful, especially on the autobahns. Very rarely can you just put on cruise control and comfortably enjoy the road.

Never used cruise control in Germany at all. Works quite well in France though, since everyone drives at exactly the (low) speed limits anyway and the highways are far less congested due to the tolls.

I stopped reading at this point because I found it so outrageously patronising. I have no doubt that I travel much more than you do, and yet I don't only find a car unnecessary, I find it a hindrance.

I totally agree STB.

Different strokes for different folks. A car to me is a must have, and it's a part of my life and lifestyle as much as an apartment is. Yes, you can temporarily borrow cars thru sharing and car rental agencies, but it's not your car. I personalise my car, as I personalise my apartment, and that's not for sharing.

The thing I think I enjoy most about owning a car is spontaneity. I jumped into my wheels on saturday afternoon strapped the bike to the bike rack, picked a spot on the map, and drove out of the city to said spot (a forest not on any train line) and rode through the forest with my dog. Lovely afternoon...thanks for asking. A spur of the moment decision like this isn't possible to do without your own car

Even though the costs of car ownership here are stupidly high, it's more than worth it. I've been able to do and see so much more in Europe since I bought my mighty auto, things I'd otherwise never see or experience.

Deciding whether something is 'worth it' is simply a matter of sorting out where your priorities lie. For instance, I'd rather pay a euro more for Hellmans mayonnaise. Sure, I could eat the generic REWE brand, and some people happily do without feeling like anything is missing from their life. It's all just a matter of how much you like mayonnaise.

Do you need a car? Is it 'worth it'? No one can tell you that, it's just something you gotta decide for yourself. Folk like Timmeh obviously feel it's a necessity, whilst others like STB feel just the opposite. Just depends on lifestyle and priorities.

Personally, although I have a driver's license, I have zero desire to drive and would never shell out the horrendous amounts of money I'd have to pay to own a vehicle. On the other hand, my boyfriend couldn't live without his car, and although he complains about the money he spends on it, he'd never give it up -- like Timmeh, he really values the freedom and independence he feels it gives him.

Now that's interesting... perhaps you dislike cars because you have trouble on the Autobahn?

Yeah, that must be it.

buy a second hand car, they are really cheap in germany ...

As my husband and I were driving through the Burgundy region of France today we were amazed at the freedom a car gives you to really explore off the beaten track. We find especially in France and Italy our best trips have been puttering around countryside and exploring small towns. Otherwise you're stuck with tours or just hitting the most crowded tourist areas. We also find that trains are very expensive especially when traveling with our dogs. You really have to plan ahead to get cheap train tickets. I would recommend Germany's most popular car, the golf diesel.