I hate Germany too

I'd trade you Essex for Munich anyday... sigh.. Ich Leibe Munich I'm not happy where I am, and I'm trying to get out but Its a huge combination of things thats caused it.. But I cant just say I hate Essex, So people from there must be stupid, and unwashed.

Basically , a sweeping statement of " i hate germany " is exceptionally sad . There can be many reasons to be unhappy living abroad , at the end of the day , living and working in a foreign country is a hell of a challenge , and not everyone is cut out for it .

I first came here 13 years ago, as a young and naive 21 year old (i actually expected that everybody would speak english and that there would be no language problems) , and detested the first 6 weeks that i was here . I was mobbed at work from my boss , who went out of her way to make my life a misery . The firm was situated in a small village with a population of less than 500 , and there was bugger all to do .
The only reason that i stayed was beacause everyone in England EXPECTED me to return home with my tail between my legs , and i was determined to prove them wrong . I was also helped by the locals , who were friendly from day one , and quickly realised that they had a n unhappy Brit with them in the bar at night , and did there best to make me feal better .

Needlessto say , i got sacked from the firm i was out , and my contracting agency gave me a choice , either a return ticket to England , or a chance in another company . There was for me no choice , i was determined not to "fail" , and took the second chance .
I never looked back , and have indeed come to love Germany , especially Bayern . For many years i said to my family back home that i would stay just for one more year , till one day i reached the conclusion that i aint going back to England .

The comments about Germans being rude , oboxius , unhelpful , and the third reich mentality simply does not ring true . As i said earlier , living abroad certainly isnt easy and needs a lot of work . Some people just cant adapt to a foreign way of life and are not prepared to put in the required effort . In these cases , i would not give the country the blame , rather i would take a very long , hard , and possibly unpleasant look at said person , and come to the conclusion that the blame lies by them .

"A problem with humans inside a totalitarian system is always, that the people imprisoned in a totalitarian system can’t see how they are fooled. They just understand one skin of the onion, but can’t see deeper inside to the center..."

"I always wondered that humans love to spoil their mental health with propaganda. How well these humans' mind is transformed into what somebody else wants it to be transformed to. This can be proved by the sole fact, that humans even pay for the stuff screwing their minds in places like cinema until they love the new world order."

I know what you meant
However Munich without money can be much worse...

So many replies on a sunday.. must be pissing down outside

Well German men who are not into sports seem to have non-existent flat butts. So it does not matter if they wear tight, wide or classy jeans, no butt, no show.

Living anywhere without enough money or having significant financial problems is dreadful!

No of course she doesn't carm as well you know. As others have pointed out about she could have posed: "I'm having a miserable time here and find it difficult to relate etcetc"

Instead she decided to post a rant of deeply insulting observations on the generalised German people and German nation. It was way over the top and gratuitously rude.

I winced when reading it and I shudder to think what most Germans on this site felt while reading it. It doesn't surprise me at all that many people on this site ( a site for people who have chosen to live in Germany) have reacted so much to what she posted. And surely we are allowed to react to what she has posted? Since when does reacting mean that we are forcing others to follow our set of rules.

I would react the same way if someone posted something similar about hating africa and and africans, china and chinese or America and Americans - wouldn't you?

Or is it okay in your books to insult whole races and nations in front of people who come from those places?

Humphs, great post!

No worries, we're used to it.

German efficiency, I was amazed at how many things I've seen that prove this wrong.

But they do build some great tunnels.

Yes her rant was indeed emotionally charged, bitter, rude, and could be insulting to the Germans. But this is what I'm wondering, isn't she entitled to "vent" her frustration or write what's on her mind like everyone else does here, albeit it was quite negative and many think insensitive, but this is her reality of what she thinks she's living?

I'm wondering also why is it not OK and heavily frowned upon for members (Marsha) to come on TT and target their frustrations at Germans when I've read countless posts of insults and derogative remarks written and directed not only toward individual members(I have even written a few myself) , but various groups as well ie. Americans, Brits, Aussies etc and it appears to be more accepted and tolerated by many and no one hardly even speaks out at this gross inhumanity?

Why is it when folks slam the Germans members (I don't mean you in particular BTC) speak up and out and even are defensive more so than it appears to me when this is done to others?

Just wondering?

Care to name one industrialised society where you don't have to tell the government in one shape or form when you move?


There isn't that often a free lunch. It's a common trend in many industrilaised societies to increase indirect taxation in this way, not a German thing.
You seen the price of a British Passport?


Yes, claimants getting treated badly by social security offices is an issue. In Germany AND elsewhere.


The banks are required by law to provide you a monthly statement.
If you don't want to pay for the 50 stamp (neither do I particuarly) why don't you put your bank card into the service machine next time you see one next to the ATM and have your statement printed there for free?


Don't know where you shop but I look forward to seeing the staff at my local store.
Germany has had a bad reputation for customer service and businesses give it a high priority these days.
How are they rude to you? Is your German developed enough to pick out the nuances?


I'm looking for a new job right now and my closest workate was almost in tears about it and he's a tough old bloke.
We stick together on our section through thick and thin, look out for each other, help each other and have a few laughs along the way.
I really want to leave my job, but I'm going to miss that team.

And I'm still curious to hear the things that were sold to you as positive about Germany but proved to be "untrue propoganda" ?

The US.

Curious what you find innefficient Sanwald, I assume compared to the US.
In my job we award different contracts to competing firms.
Despite the scare stories you hear about Germany being "too expensive" they win contracts against rivals in the UK and even places like Czech Rep or Hungary by being so efficient and with a high output that they work out good value. I work fairly closely with colleagues in the UK and I am always amazed how inefficiently they work. No decision made without half a dozen e mails from the half a dozen people on copy to arrange a half day meeting to discuss the issue and then the deadline looms and they get in a panic becasue theyv'e been stalling.

In the US you don't need to tell the government if you move house?
For social security? For driving licence? IRS tax return?

Every country has its pros and cons.It is sad that one cannot see the better side of Germany.I have experienced racism in Germany and i hated Germany for a while because of that.I was called racist names etc.But that has not stopped me from going back to Germany and wanting to live there for a few years.Why must a bunch of people make me hate the country.

Im sure not all germans are lazy, rude, bitter etc...

Not exactly unusual in German companies either, though...

Nah, I bathe very regularly and have a reasonable grasp of punctuation, spelling and grammar, but this must be due to Scottish blood, eh?

Anyway, I did trade Essex for Germany, eventually settling in Munich.
Some days I'm not entirely convinced that this was the best move, but I made this choice. I can also make a different choice at some point, it's not static and life will go on in Munich without me, of that I am quite sure. I also do not believe that I will be shot upon reaching the city limits, but I'm not 100% on that one.

Regardless of the city on my address labels, I'm still the same person with the same core values (I wasn't unwashed in Essex, so it was unlikely that I'd become unwashed in Munich).
While the original poster does indeed sound like a healthy candidate for a stomach ulcer, having a level of contentedness has a lot less to do with an external environment and more to do with an internal one.
Lashing out and venting, seeking blame in others, yeah, we all have done it, even when the content thereof isn't entirely reasonable. Or fair. Exaggerated, or even justified.
Particularly if you're feeling cornered. Or indeed insecure, which unemployment can do to a person (or in this case a couple).

They may well re-read that opener and blush a bit about things typed in haste, especially the really rant-y box-of-frogs bits. Maybe. Maybe not too. That's their choice.

If you're interested in how people make choices, I can really recommend the rather wonderful ABC podcast series Multiple Choice - and it was a pretty choice choice made by someone to choose to recommend it to me.

My first experience with German inefficiency came in 1997. Iwas in Stuttgart for three months and was never able to get a telephone hooked up in my apartment. It boggled my mind when I called the telephone company (from work) and they asked me the telephone number of the previous occupant as it would make it easier to hook up the phone..what? It just went downhill from there.

Another one...with telecom in Freising. My internet connection stopped working. So after about week of working through the helpdesk (their service was good) and a technician coming to my house, we decided the router was bad and needed to be replaced. I went to the local Telecom, explained what happened, showed my receipt to prove I was still in warranty period and expected to get a replacemnt right then. I was shocked to be told that I would be receiving my replacement in the mail in the next day (Thursday) or the day after that at the latest. They must have had 500 routers sitting in boxes around the store but couldn't just give me one and take care of the the broken one. They had to send the broken back, and then send the new one. Which of course didn't arrive until Tuesday the following week.

Ever been to a German ski lift. Navigating the line there is like a Rugby scrum at times. No organization to the entry system to allow the smooth flow of riders onto the lifts. Everyone is simply jockeying for postition and trying to get on as soon as THEY can. The result is that the process goes slower for everyone.

Street and Autobahn repair, can be done more quickly with less disruptionto traffic if done at night. The Germans don't seem to get this idea, but I've seen it in a few places.

Some things are done well and efficiently. (I was impressed with the tour system at Neuschwanstien.) But I think that efficiency as a German National trait is not true.

But they do build good tunnels!

...and you don't have to report you move to any government agency in America. You simply move and start to live there. No going to a Government office and reporting your new address. You should probably have the address changed on your license, but I don't any does unless they have to renew.

she has indeed every right to rant, just as I have a right to challenge some of the objectionable things that come out in that rant.

I know what happened with the router as that is an aspect of my work.
You weren't going to get a shop new one but an as new one from their service stocks.
The replacement wasn't in the shop but at a remote warehouse and quicker than the next day isn't possible.

My company offers exactly this service all over Europe and the USA and we win prizes for our good service.

It was just an unexpected result, and I didn't really expect to get the router any sooner than I did.

I had always expected Germans to have this efficiency gene, that isn't there. They're not really any more or less efficient than any other modern societys.

But the foulest smelling person i've ever encountered, that wasn't in a third world country, or dead, was at a Game messe in Munich. This womans smell hit you like a kidney punch, just sucked the breath out you. it was amazing because she really didn't seem to notice. Actually at first I was worried that it was somehow me, because it hit me but nobody was really standing close to me. She was an exception though. Evry other German I've met prctices good personal hygiene.

All in all I like Germany and germans.

do you have to register if you move flat in the uk? I never have.

(and I never did in germany either)

It's always been a mystery to me why so many foreigners (as in: foreigners not living in Germany) seem to think that Germany is extremely efficient. I remember chatting to an elderly Australian couple at the baggage belt in Munich airport, and they kept raving about how Germany is sooooo incredibly efficient. I kept interjecting "No, no, it really isn't...", and they kept going "No, no, it's true! It's true! Of course it is! Everyone knows that!" Even the fact that their luggage took forever to turn up didn't shake their faith. Their only comment was: "In Melbourne, it wouldn't have arrived at all, this is much better!"

If you are a British, Irish, Commonwealth or EU citizen you are obliged to go on the electoral roll.
And the Inland Revenue and DHSS or whatever they are called these days will want to know where you are too.

oh well then. guess I've been breaking the law for the last 13 years or so. maybe I should turn myself in

If the council can be bothered to prosecute I think it is about a 200 pound fine.

the electoral roll has not been mandatory to date and many people just don't go on it. PAYE employees just let their employers know the new address and they take care of the change in address. The only simlarity to the Kreis I can think of is when unemployed or freelance people move house and must notify tax offices/benefits offices.

I don't think there is any fine for not being on the electoral roll although it fucks your credit rating if you are not. It will be interesting to see what making voting compuslory, as the government have indicated they will do, will mean for this though.

well there are some things that are more efficient. Telephones and internet in my experience are considerably worse in Germany than the UK. But Munich airport, the ICE trains, shopping at Hirmer/Lugwig Beck/ Oberpolinger, Munich biergartens and Munich's unbelieveably good integrated public transport system are all examples of superb organisationa dn efficiency surely?

Wiki says it is compulsory and the fine is 1000 quid!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_roll

I have issues with how big government tries tocontrol individuals.
But that applies to all industrialised socieities, not just germany and certainly isn't ground to HATE somewhere.

I'm very surprised by that, it must be very poorly enfoced then. one of our main campaigning activities away from elections was getting the elderly,immigrants and other marginal groups onto the electoral rolls because most weren't.

germans are VERY efficient at dinging their little cycle bells. and being naked. They are some of the most efficiently naked people in the world

Yes you do. And if you plan on getting any mail forwarded, you need to report a change of address to the Postal Services. Why is this considered such an unusal practice the original poster resents?

This is not registration as it's practised in European countries. It's a form to the local government once per annum so the electoral roll can be made up so you can vote. You don't need to tell them if/when you move, just the next year you will fill in the form which has been sent to your new address.


But you don't 'register' with them in the sense of keeping your details up to date. For most people who are earning their employer does everything anyway, likewise for claimants.

yeah, considering that there are several places where its the other way around - the Government tells you where to move, every time!

Sure, it is a different way of doing the same thing.
But the idea that we are here under the heel of a "nazi" jackboot and elswhere people are "free" of of big government is a fallacy.

It's not the same thing at all. Germany, Italy and Spain all have a requirement that you register your address with the authorities as soon as you move. Notice anything about those countries in particular? There are other countries which have similar schemes - France is one I think, so it could to be a Napoleonic thing rather than a legacy of fascism. Very definitely not in the Anglo political tradition though. Hence the UK and US are not keen on ID cards and suchlike.

Edit: the French ID card was introduced by the Vichy regime in 1940.

also, in germany they are quite likely to want to prosecute you if you dont

But I do recommend it to anybody living in germany. I didnt ever register where I lived and consequently I never got fined for anything at all.

Actually, people like that who just hate everything about Germany and Germans and call them X, Y and Z are a lot easier to deal with than if someone actually thought about what they said, and criticized Germany in an intelligent manner (i.e. no generalizing or throwing around stereotypes), because it is really hard to take someone like that (Marsha) seriously.

It also helps if someone points out how awful Germans are and then mentions that they are married to one.

What's the problem with registering your address? It enables the local government to plan much more effectively. They know school class sizes several years ahead, they know the likely volume of traffic on local roads, they know how much to budget for certain target groups per year, etc. It also makes it much easier to get something done as a private citizen... Compare this to the UK for example, where nobody has any idea how many foreigners are in the country, if people are allowed to claim benefits - or even if they are claiming twice, how many children are likely to be registering at school in the next 2 or 3 years, etc...
In mainland Europe there is also a more practical driver. They have long land borders with their neighbours and this is not so easy to control as it is for the UK. They cannot hope to stop & check everyone at the official ports of entry, so they have to rely much more on 'checking papers' anywhere in the country.

As someone who grew up with 2000 acres and a mule and then moved to Frankfurt, I understand culture shock. But being smug and insulting is not a good way to deal with culture shock.

I felt isolated when I first went to Germany. If you're feeling isolated, figure out why. Need to learn German? Try Inlingua. They start from the beginning and it's way cheaper than moving.

Then you'll be able to learn the culture, read the food labels, understand the politics, and you'll even know more, firsthand, about the world than most US presidents.

How amazing is that?

I see from your profile that you are english mr. nosey, yet you talk like a german.

I dunno, I just have an englishmans distrust of being monitored, and as I said, it did come in quite handy with the parking fines etc

Did someone call? If it helps my GERMAN wife and myself jointly hate the same things about Germany. Lots of things we like of course as well - so pretty much the same as living in the UK.

It's normally the petty jobsworth officials that drive us both barking mad. Anything to do with "official registrations for taxation" and all that stuff is a recipe for getting your blood pressure up. I have moved house here twice, offices 3 times, registered 3 different trading companies, import from overseas countries etc and after a bit you learn to expect the same anal, pointless questions. My foolproof plan is as follows:

Get that photocopier and rubber stamp ready. If you flood them with 20+ official looking sheets, rubber stamped and signed then it solves every problem. Doesn't seem to matter much if they are actually the documents requested - just as long as the herberts have something to file it keeps them happy. Last week I printed some random crap off the internet and stamped it for the local gemeinde - they were delighted.

I get the impression that Italy and France are just as bad for petty red tape anyway.

In my house however even mentioning the world "Telekom" will start a big row, so it is a taboo word. That said they only made 1 fuckup on my last office move which was pretty good, and barely an issue.

Germany can be boring but can't everywhere? Try living in London. 1 bed flats start at 700 per month to rent and about 150 K to buy and that's British pounds and not Euros. You hardly get paid any more in the UK than in Germany so unless you're rich your standard of living is a helluvalot lower. Then there's the crime, the litter, the awful expensive public transport, the crap health care and the rude, stressed people. The north of england is cheaper, but it doesn't have a strong economy, try finding a meaningful job up there - not easy. Yes, Germany will never be my homeland, but you have to get it in perspective.

£150k flat in London? Gonna be a shithole 1 bed above a curry house for that.

I just don't think I could handle London transportation if I went back. Traffic and speed cameras really really piss me off.

Britain is 'surveillance society'

I didnt ask for any cameras.

@ Marsha - You should watch the movie called Beerfest - maybe you will have a giggle about Germany or perhaps USA

Which no-one voted for. The Civil Service and security establishment took advantage of Britain's most authoritarian PM to carry out a land-grab.