Islamic Union under investigation in NRW

Southern Baptists preachers are not high up on my list of religious leaders either, but the local congregations can vote with their feet and donations.
Pastafarian? you guys are just a heretical split off from the Church of the Sub-Genius. Viva Bob!

The vast majority of Basques oppose ETA, and from what I understand, now a majority of Basques want an independent Euskal Herria, not mere autonomy. ETA is disliked not only because they kill people but because they hamper the movement towards independence, which can only be accomplished amicably.

again, we are mostly in agreement here...must be due to sunspot activity.
Amicably...well this is never going to be easy. The desire for full independence is regionally concentrated, Alava is not so keen on the idea. Do you want to include Navarra? It is messy, and there is no scope in the current constitution for a referendum. But the parallel with the central topic is striking, the movement towards a more open and democratic Muslim world has been blocked by the "war on terror", which is exagerrated by the powers-that-be to furthur their own agendas.
The discussion of trying to introduce some Muslim topics in the curriculum in Germany and NYC is blocked by fear and smear tactics.
It's the same, old song...

Thats the part that always bothered me.
The reply they usually give is that God wants us to be happy and rich etc. Sure...ok...perhaps more rich in terms of life... and also perhaps not in the face of so much poverty.
It doesn't make sense for me that these baptist ministers have two or three cars while some of their congregants (is that even a word?), have to work two jobs.
Something off with their logic.

@ Villager: I think there should be quid pro quo with respect to curriculum. Have you seen a Saudi Arabian textbooks recently? It's supposed to be a two way street.

Why should I be concerned that the Saudi have crappy textbooks?
That's their problem, not ours.

It's true that support for independence is highest in Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa. Iruña (Pamplona) was the historical Basque capital, but we'll have to garner greater support in Nafarroa and Araba. The former would have to agree anyhow to be joined with the rest of Euskal Herria, even within the context of remaining autonomous within Spain.

tell me please that your family were not Carlistas
although this would explain a lot of things

Not that I am aware of. I doubt it considering my maternal grandfather was an anarchist and fought with the Republicans. Not only that, but he was actually born in Andalusia because his father was wanted by the Guardia Civil.

anyway, as I am not a madrileño, Basque independence does not worry me. But I do understand that this process has to be done with a more general de-centralization of Spain, and that process is moving along (slowly), but the prior government was certainly not very helpful.

Agreed that the Aznar government was hostile to further decentralization and Basque independence, thus I was happy to see Zapatero as Prime Minister instead of Rajoy.

Decentralization is the way to go, given the strong regional identity in most of the country, and which is how it has historically been, anyway. Frankly, Basques just want to be left alone (as they have always preferred).

What do you think of the Law of Historical Memory?

It's too soon to tell. Letting sleeping dogs lie was a good policy for the first couple of years, democracy needed a grace period to grow some roots,
but by now we should be able to deal with these subjects without getting into fights.
My first trip to Spain (and return for my father) was in summer of '76, after Paquiño's passing away, and we were delighted to be able to travel around and see the cultural sights, historical revindication was a low priority. Unfortunately, Zapatero's initial election was marred by the terrorist attack in Madrid, and by the PP's infantile insistence on wild conspiracy theories to cover up Aznar's botched alliance with Bush and Blair. The more time passes, the less controversial this will be.
I think that some understanding and toleration is required of all citizens. Personally I am against the monarchy, but I do not think that it is worth getting into a fight about this, if the other citizens want it then so be it. Too bad there is no liberal/center party in Spain.

I used to hate all monarchs, but Juan Carlos earned a special place in my heart when he asked Chavez "¿Por qué no te callas?".

Poor form for a King, but it was very funny.

Someone had to tell him, and do you think one of those Presidents or Zapatero would have (although Zapatero did criticize him first)? Yeah, Villager, I know you are going to say he should have addressed him more formally, not as if he were talking to a pal, but Chavez also wasn't acting like a President should.

Its a problem when you bend over for them

Pass auf! I am not here to push forward a Mulsim agenda, and much less make excuses for Saudi orthodoxy.
An attack on diversity is an attack on freedom, regardless of which group is affected.
It is just that Islam is now subject to many ungrounded prejudices.
My concern is for freedom here and now.

You have got to be kidding me...many Muslim friends of mine moved here and to the States from the middle east precisely because it was free!
When you are allowed to worship any way you choose, some prejudice is obviously going to come out of that from people who are not used to you.
It's not right, its un fair but its a damn sight better than what they were used to.

There are many groups in more need of our mental armchair help.Let's see if we can make equality the name of the game, otherwise it seems like only one group gets the benefit and they mostly don't need it.

No, I am not offering help to a group that does not need it,
I am merely connecting the dots and seeing where this is leading: harrasment of unwanted aliens

This from today's Kölner Stadt Anzeiger: Duisburg lehnt VIKZ-Bau ab

QUOTE

Der Rat der Stadt Duisburg hat sich mit breiter Mehrheit gegen ein islamisches Kulturzentrum mit Gebetsmöglichkeiten und Internatsplätzen ausgesprochen

The city of Duisburg has decided not to approve one of VIKZ projects. Why? ohhh...we don't like the color of the building, or something like that.
Now xenophobes will be able to make such decisions without protest.
Today it is Muslim schools, tomorrow it will be Irish pubs playing foreign music.

It's not the colour or size or whatever of the building or people's skin. What they're saying is that they are not going to enable the enemy to set up camp on our own doorstep and give them all the social help and whatever else they need with multiple wives and a gaggle of kids while they slowly turn the rest of the world to islam via the 5 types of jihad... including violence where necessary.

um, perhaps you confused Muslim with Mormons? A Muslim can can multiple wives only under very restricted circumstances, like being a Saudi prince and treating all of them equally. How many polygamous Muslims do you know? As some Muslims I know would say: "Two wives? What the hell for? The first one is painful enough!"

In any case, it is more frequent for W-Europeans to have multiple wives, through divorces. Mr. Schroeder being a prime example.

The Quran permits a man to marry up to four wives, provided he can support and treat them all equally. It has nothing to do with being a Saudi prince. Welfare handouts will do nicely thank you. Even Herr Schröder doesn't do wives in parallel as permitted by islam but in series.

Plural marriage was generally intended to keep war widows and daughters from destitution or slavery.

Villager, I think a better approach for Muslims is to demonstrate that they are members of their local communities here in Germany just like everyone else. That will take a bit of time, but I think once there aren't any doubts about that those communities that still have those doubts, there will be greater understanding when Muslims tell school authorities that they do not want boys and girls doing Phys Ed together for religious reasons. It's easier to accept differences when you trust the other person or people. Let's be honest, 9/11 is what's driving this in large part, and while the people it's affecting obviously had nothing to do with it and would never do or support such a thing, it's up to Muslims to relieve the concerns those wary of them have- that they want to create a parallel society, or whatever these concerns are. Is it fair to have to combat such fears? No, but it's the reality and browbeating Germans who are suspicious isn't the best path for a long-term solution.

Browbeat Germans? Naw, just chuckle when they talk about how liberal they are. I thought the burden of proof lies with the State, but that is a dim memory.

Hey, you know I was talking about citizens' attitudes, not the rules of criminal procedure. Is there any evidence that the civil liberties of the accused were violated in any way?

Civil liberties violated? No, not directly, though perhaps they will sue for libel. A cloud of suspicion hangs over any Muslim organisation now. Just when the German state should be trying to build bridges, instead they are shunning an important part of the population. Like I said before, expect to see more of the same.

I don't know if the accused are guilty or not, but you might want to at least entertain the notion that there is a chance they are guilty. How can you be so sure they are being falsely accused?

Innocent until proven guilty, that was drummed into my head in the US.
here it seems to be : Suspicious and potentially dangerous until proven otherwise

It's also innocent until proven guilty here, but that doesn't mean someone can't be arrested if that is justifiable based on Strafrecht and the facts of the case/investigation.

Yes. Innocent until proven guilty by evidence in court.
If the investigators feel they have a case I am sure they will make an accusation which will have a process.

Its a little to early to pull out the 1st semester law book at the moment.
Let it develop a little

You have no civil rights in the court of public opinion.

"Here it seems to be..."???!!! You're kidding, right???

Or maybe you think it wiser to wait until there are a few more dead Infidels before spending any effort on investigating these guys? The first duty of a government is to protect its own citizens. This implies some pro-activity.

yes, you're quite right. Given your stated hostility to a significant segment of the German population (that happens to be Muslim), I have denounced you to the appropriate authorities. Sometime Sunday morning you will be rounded up and taken to the nearest re-education camp. Till then stuff yourself with currywurst and chips!

Wasn't that "rounded up, put into prison camps, and subjected to torture until proven guilty"?

Only if they think you're a terrorist. As long as they only think you're a mass murderer you'll be OK.

The Bush Administration's alleged violations of Habeus Corpus, Geneva Conventions, the US Constitution, and laws of common sense will also have a day in court.

Date and time? I'd love to attend