Islamic Union under investigation in NRW

From today's Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger :
NRW: Islam-Verein hat „radikale Tendenz“
Das nordrhein-westfälische Innenministerium stuft den „Verband der islamischen Kulturzentren“ (VIKZ) nach den Worten von Ministeriumssprecherin Carola Holzberg als „integrationsfeindlich“ ein.

The Union of Islamic Cultural Associations has been labelled as "hostile to integration", and a number of other things by the NRW Ministry of the Interior spokesperson Carola Holzberg. Holzberg also confirmed that a police dossier containing serious allegations against the VIKZ from the year 2006 has lead to talks among the Düsseldorf Interior Ministry, the Ministry of Integration and the NRW State Youth offices. "The VIKZ advocates a strict conservative interpretation of Islam, ...there is a danger that young people will be radicalized... a radical trend is discernible."

A major investigation is underway, this might lead to conflicts.
Perhaps we should be more careful here at Toytown, some of our posts are somewhat radical as well.

Some say Germany itself is hostile to immigration.

Oops, I mean integration.

Now this from the Int'l Herald Tribune:


******************************
This seems to be the begining of a trend of making life difficult for self-professed muslims. I doubt that this news will be of any interest to the mostly bigoted audience that we have at toy-town. But those among you who imagine yourself to be moderates would do well to remember the following:

Als sie die Kommunisten geholt haben, habe ich geschwiegen.
- denn ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialisten und Gewerkschafter geholt haben, habe ich geschwiegen.
- denn ich war ja keins von beiden.
Als sie die Juden geholt haben, habe ich geschwiegen.
- denn ich war ja kein Jude.
Als sie mich geholt haben, hat es niemanden mehr gegeben, der protestieren konnte.

First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me
----Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

Why do you care? Europe (the world actually) is better off without Islam

did you read the poem?
Do you understand the problems caused by racism and bigotry?
No, evidently you don't...this is exactly the problem.

Do I hate it when people answer their own rhetorical questions?

No, the problem is people feel the need to defend such a disgustingly oppressive, archaic and violent culture. Sorry buddy, as un PC as it sounds, some cultures are better than others at the humanist level. Europe doesn't need Islam, it doesn't fit with it's values.

I'm curious what you mean by that.

I have no idea whether or not those charged are guilty, and while I agree we should monitor the matter as the media continues to report on it, I don't see how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that foreigners and/or Muslims in Germany should worry about being falsely accused of a crime and/or persecuted.

As for discrimination in Germany, well, unfortunately there is (like anywhere else) obviously too much of it- but that includes age discrimination or gender discrimination as well as discrimination on the basis of racial, ethnic, or national origins.

Timmeh, given that there are 1.5 billion or so Muslims spread all over the world, there is obviously going to be a wide variety of pratices and beliefs. My opinion is that Islam itself is not the problem, I think the problems you see lie with individuals or much smaller groups of people than the 1.5 billion Muslims.

@Pas
the Polizeibericht against VIKZ include the accusation of being: Anti-western, Anti-integration, and anti-semitic. Although the latter is troubling, I had no idea that it is against the German law to be anti-western. And you can find no end of anti-integration statments here at TT.

@Conq - I have no idea what your personal feeling are concerning muslims, but I would expect that your personal history would give you reason to suspect the state's intentions in such cases. I know that my own family history makes me very suspicious. Perhaps the above cases are justified, but there seems to be a trend.

@Tim - I do not think that we share the same culture, I am cultured, you are...well, a bigot.

Some minorities are like canaries in the mine, when they suffer it is a warning that something is not right.

Villager, frankly, I want to know what the evidence is and hear both sides of the story before passing judgement.

Family members of mine were indeed persecuted and murdered both by Hitler and Franco, that's certainly true, but I think we have to judge each situation independently. This isn't a situation where a Bayesian approach is appropriate.

I'm curious still.

Most Muslims are only interested in bettering themselves and making a life in the west. These people should be welcomed and everything done to protect them against any form of racism or intolerance.

There is however Radical Islam which has all of the elements of anti-western, anti-integration anti-semetic and many other abhorrent elements.

If this group is indeed possibly a Radical Islam organisation is it not wise to look at it? It's the ideology of Radical Islam that makes life difficult for the rest of the Muslim peoples.

Call me bigoted if it makes you feel better. I take solace in the fact that I'm not apologetic to violence, oppression and murder. Religion is a disease on society, Islam being the most foul form of it.

Will you give me a reason to respect Islam?

In fact, why the fuck do you feel the need to afford religion so much respect? Is it so ingrained that this area of discussion is a no no, fuck that, You wouldn't bitch and moan and call me a bigot if I ripped into your beliefs in politics. Why the fuck does religion have to have the softly softly? Fuck that shit right up the arse, it's as open to criticism as any other human trait.

The problem doesn't lie so much with religion itself as it does with things that are sometimes done in the name of religion.

But who says is what is in the name of religion and what is the religion?

I'd say the problem lies with the religion. Doing something in the name of religion, is an act done because of religion. What evil acts have been done in the name of atheism?

Out of over a billion muslims there have been some wackos that commited some terrorists acts. Based on this you want to judge all people not like yourselves to be primitive and brutal? This is not fair, and is not very smart, it is simply bigotry. There is no need for me to defend Islam in this discussion, because this is not the topic. The issue is that in Europe there are signs of some bigotry towards muslims, and I am concerned for the welfare of all because I sincerely believe in the value of diversity. Ex-pats should be the first to understand how hard it is for a foreigner in this (or any) country, but it is near impossible for well-off Brits and Yanks, who bitch and moan about German culture, to identify with the plight of less fortunate immigrants.

@Conq - Certainly not asking you to compare the German state now to the nazis or Franco's regime, but would persecution of muslims in Europe trouble you? Has it started already? Or are we just taking small steps towards a more hostile atmosphere for immigrants?

Communist oppression of religions, for example.

Villager, the problem I have with what you are saying is you have no idea whether or not the accused are in fact truly guilty or truly a threat- it sounds to me as though you simply assume that they are being discriminated against as Muslims. Where is the proof of this? We simply do not know based upon what has been reported whether or not they are guilty or innocent or discriminated against or not.

As to discrimination against foreigners, it is true that outsiders (whether German or non-German, although disproportionately the latter) suffer it; however, I think that can be partially eliminated with a more free-market system, where foreigners have better opportunities to succeed economically and can better be viewed as essential contributors to society.

Of course persecution of Muslims in Europe would concern me greatly, I would protest against it, and work through democratic institutions to end it. I don't see it happening, though.

No, not the people, read what I wrote. The RELIGION is primitive and brutal. People are stupid and will subscribe to nearly anything, it's hard to put the blame on the regular Joe believer, it's the religion itself which is fucked up and has no place in Europe.

Cry me a fucking river. I dislike all religions, sorry if you find it bigoted if I pick on Islam, but I haven't heard too many cases of christians beheading infidels or christian women being jailed/stoned for being raped lately.

Well, hardly surprising is it, Islam doesn't exactly have a good image right now. Perhaps all these apparent moderate Islamists should work on making the image of Islam more palatable to Europeans...it's not the Job of the Europeans to bend over backwards to try and accomodate a desert death cult time warped here from the 7th century

Individual regimes have indeed oppressed religion, but completely independent of atheism. It's a common myth that communism doesn't allow religion, that's an untruth.

So I put the question back out there. What evil deeds have been done in the name of atheism?

@Tim - you find Islam to be primitive, but in comparison to what?
You do not like religions, sure, great...then why pick on the muslims? Stories and anecdotes of "Christian", "Hindu", or "Jewish" atrocities are evidently not going to convince you that wackos are common to all religions, psychopathic behaiour is not particular to any one race, religion or creed.
Learning about religion is like learning a languge or a foreign culture, it is interesting just as an experience. Shutting your mind off does not benefit you, and certainly does not give you much ground on which to critize others. And most human religions deal with ethical behaviour and the exploration of mystical experiences. Atrocities commited by extremists are more often than not simply political acts, and the individuals involved are usually marginalized in their own societies.

"What evil deeds have been done in the name of atheism?"
Can we list any atrocities committed by communist regimes? The cultural revolution? Can we count the Nazi regime as atheistic?
Doesn't matter, atrocities are committed by humans under a wide variety of circumstances...you do not need religion to explain it.
just curious, are you inspired by Dawkins in your hatred and contempt of religion?
Personally I am an atheist, but I see no need to show contempt for religion.

Learning about religion can be interesting from an academic point, but it doesn't justify the massive social harms that these fairy tales have been causing us for thousands of years.. Anything which diminishes religious influence on society is probably a good thing. I suppose you have to protect stupidity in the name of freedom, but its hard to motivate myself to give two shits about letting sky wizard adhearents spread their poison.


They weren't done in the name of atheism, they were done in the name of other ridiculous ideologies such as communism, nazism, etc.

Timmeh-

the atrocities to which you refer are considered by mainstream Muslim scholars to be contrary to Islamic teachings.

As far as the oppression wrought by state atheism, Wikipedia offers a good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

QUOTE

Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right

OK, so you don't want to believe in fairy tales. But without mythology, life would be boring. You do not have to believe in Christ to listen to the St. Mathew's Passion, but it helps if you want to understand the text and understand the motive of the work. Being a militant atheist is as much fun as being a vegan.

Writing about how a concept is antithetical to your warped view of political and economic justice is not the same thing as using it as a justification for your atrocities.


Yeah, creating interesting fiction is a great justification to use while bible beaters try to push their ideologies to stand in the way of stem cell research that could prolong my life because their God says its bad, or the countless people killed or abused in religious conflicts, children who get molested in mormon cult ranches, etc.

Sure, people will create atrocity somehow no matter what we do, but we don't need to help them along by catering to organizations that brainwash children from birth and which create fanatical dedication to some ass-backward views of the world.

The western world.

I already said why earlier

I agree it is a very interesting topic to read. The more one reads, the more problems one finds.

That was also covered earlier

His beliefs fit with mine, however, he wasn't and isn't been an inspiration to me.

I do, it affects my life.

@tim - your last post contains more of my words than your own, an odd form of debate.

Anyway, back to the main topic. Sarkozy in France has said some occasional offensive remarks concerning Muslims, in the Netherlands it is now a national sport to pick on Muslims, in Guantanamo...well, you know. Evidently the Muslims have become a target in much of the West, and from the look of things this behavior will be tolerated and even cheered on by much of the much-vaunted "liberal" West. The whole point of freedom and tolerance is to protect precisely those groups with which you are not in agreement, otherwise it is a farce. It is not the majority that needs protection from tyranny, but rather the minorities. Go back and read the federalist papers; under Bush's regime they are probably classified as state secrets.

This is not the fault of atheism, it's the regimes. Atheism, has no position on suppression of religion...it is nothing more than lack of belief in the supernatural.

So, Timmeh, why don't you think that it is also the fault of the regimes in the case of Iran or religious cults?

I didn't want to repeat myself.

These liberties of the west only go so far. With the increase of Islam in the UK, there is pressure for more observance and respect for their culture...ok, fair enough, to a point. Now freedom of speech is being eroded which is a non negotiable basic right.
Bending over backwards for these people to the point of being fucked up the arse, do you think they'd have the same flexibilty if the position was reversed...not a fucking chance.

Um, it is the regimes fault...but they're also being guided by religion. Communist regimes are not guided by atheism

elaborate please.

So not believing in God has nothing to do with why one would try to suppress the expression of faith by those who do?

That, sir, is complete bullshit.

Fundamental Islam basically is a religious cult.

The reason that alot of people heavily distrust and perhaps dislike Islam is not the "wackos" that blow themselves up, but in fact the so-called peaceful majority, that simply do not say enough. It's always been my biggest gripe with Islam - they should bloody keep their own house in order a bit more. The simple fact that home-grown* terrorism in Europe exists means that somebody has to bloody do something, and if muslims cannot sort out their own radical edge, then somebody else has to. A bit like football clubs failing to curb their hooligan elements, and getting banned from European games perhaps - well not really, but anyway.
People like to call bigot if somebody has anything negative to say on Islam, because muslims are generally not white, so its automatically "racism", and because it is politically correct to embrace and adore cultural diversity like its manna from nirvana. Why is one a bigot to say "hang on, people keep doing terrorist shit, and they seem to be doing it in the name of Islam, ergo, I think Islam is shit". Nobody ever calls you a "bigot" if you say "hang on, people keep doing terrorist shit, and for the cause of ETA, ergo, I think ETA is shit". Say it in the wrong bars in Donostia, and you might get a kicking, sure, but you'd never be called a bigot.

*As an aside, I hate the way the press has tainted the phrase "home grown" by using it to describe terrorism, rather than marijuana.

from Wikipedia: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding ideology.
This is perfectly applicable to many here at TT. As for the Basque question: yes, many Spaniards tend to stereotype the Basques as terrorists and this is not helpful. Many Basques find the whole ETA thing distasteful, but they also understand that the Spanish state uses public fear of terrorism as an excuse not to grant them that autonomy that was promised in the constitution, this is a very complicated problem.

When I see traditionally-dressed muslims, orthodox jews, mormons, or seventh-day adventists in the street, I marvell at the wonder that we can all rub shoulders without throwing rocks at each other. I grew up in NYC, and there are a lot of ethnic groups there. If you can appreciate the diversity, you can understand that it is worth defending. Of course there will always be some bigotry, this is a normal human impulse, you see someone different in the street and you are surprised and possibly disturbed. Many animals tend to conformity and will actively persecute that which is different. It is important to be vigilent against such impulses because they jepordize the richness of a multi-cultural environment. Conformity is not good, whether it is propogated by a bible-thumper or militant atheists. Ex-pats, who with the experience of being a stranger in a strange land, sould understand the need for tolerence and would be concerned about targeted state actions against foreigners.

On BBC's Hard Talk this week there was an interesting interview with Professor Kishore Mahbubani, of the National University of Singapor. He pointed out some of the West's double standards concerning non-Westerners, especially that the issue of Guantanamo has not be raised in the UN security council by any European government. Somehow we have fallen into the trap of accepting sub-standard treatment of muslims, and this is corrupting our liberal society. In Asia many people have rising living standards, and this affords them personal freedoms that were unthinkable only 10 years ago, they are moving forward, we are falling back.

In short, I like Europe a lot, but Germany/France/Netherlands/Spain still have a way to go in terms of fostering integration of immigrants, and I think that our experience as outsiders can be used to enlighten the natives here. As a nod to don_riina, yes, we should get our house in order, Germany/EU is our house, and we share it with other immigrants as well.

Judge christianity by the likes of the Lord Resistance's Army then. They're on a far worse level.

Important to realize the difference between tolerance and acceptance, society should tolerate different ideals but it doesn't mean you have to embrace them and be uncritical of them. As much as I depsise religion I admit a free society should not persecute it, but it should not also bend over backwards to avoid 'offending' it either by censoring itself, which is becoming an issue as of late.

"Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! ..."Tolerate" means you're just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!"

I am not a bigot if I say I hate Islam. I am a bigot if I say, I hate you because you are a muslim. Big difference.

This is not the fault of Islam, it's the regimes(or people). Islam, has no position on suppression of religion...it is nothing more than belief in the supernatural.

Atheism certainly has nothing to do with the suppression of faith, it is the belief in the rational and the logical. Some people may certainly wish to suppress religion but this is not because they are atheist.

One acts upon what one believes in. Most of the time.

Suuuure buddy:




No suppression of beliefs there!

Athiesm doesn't dictate that you follow a moral code. It doesn't dictate anything and its not used as a moral justification for its 'adherents' actions. Timmeh and I don't inherently share any moral values because we are athiests. Islam is not 'simply a faith in the supernatural' - it is a specific codified doctrine with a series of specific rules.

So tell me. How does a person who believes in reason and logic act? Reasonably and logically? Atheists around the world thank you.

I think that any kind of belief, whether theist or non theist which makes you think everyone else is wrong leads to problems.

Everyone who has a belief in anything pretty much by defaults thinks diametrically opposed beliefs are wrong. People don't generally hold beliefs that they think are invalid, otherwise why would you believe in it?

In a classical sense...no. That is a type of Semitic ( Judaism-Christianity-Islam) way of thinking.

The eastern world doesn't always think in the same way. Check out Hinduism or Buddism sometimes...many paths to God...by whatever name you call him or her and whatever way your path to God is.
Doesn't count in atheism I think.

If you understood my irony...


ha ha...those without belief act with reason and logic. The Christians and Muslims cannot reason I presume from your argument. golly.
Athiests believe there is no God. They know for sure there is no God. THey have seens the whole universe to know that. Smart I say...
It amazes me how blind and Illogical Athiests can be, in the face of such clear facts.!! ha ha...They know so much to know that there is no God.!!

Talk about being reasonable and Logical...ha ha ha ..