A business I was involved with owes me money

I used to be involved in a business. The person who took over the business wanted it as it was, including all subscriptions running. It was then his responsibility to change these into his name. It was done as a favour to him because if everything had been cancelled, then he'd be liable for new connection fees and in most cases, new mininum lengths that the contracts had to run for - not to mention a potential break in various services. If they're transferred, then the name on the bill merely gets changed and things continue as are.

Anyway, everything appeared to be done OK and the handover seemed to go smoothly. About 6 months afterwards, I collected some mail that had been delivered there, that was still addressed to me at this business. One of the letters was a bill for services that had been provided there for the past 6 months. I passed this onto the new owner and told him he'd obviously forgotten to change this subscription over to his name. I told him he had to do it and pay the bill. I didn't hear anything back, so trusted (perhaps naiively) that it had been done.

Fast forward to last week. I received a letter in the mail from a debt collector, sent to my home address, giving me until 10 April to pay this bill and threatening Schufa entries and court action if I don't. I contacted the owner and told him that I had received this bill, but he should obviously pay it. I assume there were more warnings before then, but these were sent to the business address and never forwarded onto me.

He refused flat out to pay it. He gave some lame excuse of not using the service and having made "several calls" and them refusing to cancel the subscription. So I called the company myself and the first question I asked was "How do you cancel a subscription?". They told me that all I needed to do was send an e-mail. Even if he had problems cancelling the subscription, he should have at least spoken to me and told me about it. I would have at least sent the mail. Even if he had been dicked around by the company, which after speaking to them personally and getting nothing but straight answers out of them, I don't believe for 1 minute, surely it is still up to him to sort out. I shouldn't even be in the picture anymore. I think he should give me the money and take me out of the equation and sort this out himself. I approached him personally about this bill tonight and he even pointed at the name on the bill and said it was addressed to me. It is, but only because he didn't do what he had agreed to do - take over the business and everything that went with it "as is". Anyway, it ended in a heated discussion and culminated with me being banned from coming back to the premises again.

I will be forced to pay this bill to start with - it's close to €400, I have a deadline in 2 days and I have to save myself any further hassle from the debt collectors, but I would like some suggestions as to how I could possibly recoup that money. I'm not sure legal action will help, as they'll probably tell me I should have cancelled everything when I left. Had I done that, then the reconnection fees for everything would have been quite high - as I said, nothing was cancelled to help out the new owner. To then be bitten in the arse in this way certainly makes me quite mad.

Now I'm not going to name any names here. I'm keeping this post as generic as possible because I don't want to open up myself or the site to any legal action. I have thus not named the business involved, the new owner, nor the company we're dealing with.

I just want advice on how to get my money back...

Take it on the Chin...

But Knowing full well that you know info that could get a service of heirs terminated.. costing them a similar amount to the sum mentioned..

I was messed about by a guy that took over a buisness from a friend of mine..

I know what a pain these people can be..

Good luck

You have essentially named names, but I think we all understand after your last trial. I wish you the best.

That sucks big style, Hazza.
TT boycott of the business in question until the dosh is handed over?

Did you not all sign a contract when selling the business??? would be covered by that.

I haven't made any mention here. I'm pretty sure that if no names are mentioned, then nobody can take any legal action

Has all the makings of another TwiBa this thread.

No, I stupidly trusted the person and thought he would do the right thing.

There was obviously a contract, but it didn't mention any services that would remain connected

is this the only outstanding bill? If not, then call all those places and cancel the service.
Bugger that this has happened, no real advice to give. Sorry.

The service was cancelled automatically once the bill went to a debt collector. This is the final outstanding sum and there won't be any more on top of it...

I don't need to. I've been banned...

Don't forget to Cancel all the other remaining contracts as well.. Hell cancel the ones in the other person name too

well, I haven't been for months and months, either, tbh
place went badly downhill after your departure IMO

I get the impression that there are still plenty of people who go there from on here, though. So SiM tells me, anyroad.

I think the fact that people still go there has more to do with the lack of alternatives than say the friendliness of the owner.

This isn't helpful, but if I were in town i'd boycot the place
this behavior is just low and unnecessary (not Hazza's) especially since I don't think you'd (Hazza) do this if it was reverse (seeing as you worked out fantasy football winnings for me months after it all ended and other issues. You are very fair and honest).

Let me get this straight...you kept those services on as a favour to him/her. Perhaps said business is doing so fantastically well that they can afford not to care. Otherwise one would think that said new business owner would be intelligent enough to pay his/her debts. S/he surely realises the TT community has a keen sense of fair play. Yes, s/he could hold onto their measly 400euros but it will definitely come out of his/her pocket another way.

Doubt you can collect but I'm not an expert. I'm sure if we discuss this long enough someone clever will eventually pop along with a solution or perhaps said owner will wise up.

I'm more concerned about getting the money back myself.

I know how the business works and know that I can make a few phone calls that will end up costing the business a lot more than €400 - but that's not what I want to do.

I just want them to do the right thing and cover this bill

Is there no equivalent of the small claims court in Germany?

I've never heard of a small claims court here. Normally people threaten with lawyers for even the smallest amounts, so I doubt it.

Related TT topic: Small claims court equivalents in Germany.

I've used something simliar to "small claims court" in Germany. Well, at least, my lawyer did. It worked.

Basically, this guy took over the business with all existing contracts, right? All rights and obligations/alle Rechte und Pflichten? I would cover the open amount in order to keep the damages low, as is your obligation under German law (Schadensminderungspflicht) but immediately turn around and send a court order to the purchaser, ticking the box "Diese Forderung ist nicht von einer Leistung abhängig".
The fact that he has received and paid all the other bills resulting from the purchase is strong proof in your favor that this contract was also part and parcel of the purchase agreement.

I cannot give you any advice, but I can say that I would not want to be the customer of a business run like that. I hope you can get the money back somehow, good luck.

I guess the place you are referring to... didn't take much working out really using the search facility. If that's the case, I suggest we boycott the place unless the current owner rectifies the situation... They'll soon learn when they has no customers!!

Good luck with it Hazza!

Oh great, a typical Toytown reaction, hear one side of the story, jump to a conclusion and start a campaign to cripple the business.

Seems a bit underhand.Was a gentlemans agreement i think we could call it.All about ones character i would say.I call for a T.T. duel at dawn between the 2 parties.

Cripple the business?! Put it out of its misery more like.
Anyone who knows the goings on of late know that the place is doooomed.
Doooomed I tellls ya dooooomed.

Thanks for that. I'll look into this, though I'd rather avoid the legal route.


You know, I'd love to hear the other side of the story. The side that explains how I could possibly be liable for a bill that was wholly incurred AFTER I cut ties with the business, despite the fact that the new owner not only knew full well of the service from when he took over, he requested everything to continue running as it was - and even if he had forgotten about it, got a personal reminder from me several months later.

Oh and he claimed that he had told me that he had called the company that provided the service and told them over the phone that he didn't want it. I'm sorry, but this person has been in Germany for long enough to know that any cancellations to any services are always done in writing - whether it's as basic as a newspaper subscription. I don't believe that he ever called them, because if he had, then they would have told him that - just like they also told me.

But instead of getting any answers, I got asked...actually I didn't get asked, the current owner asked someone to escort me off the premises and then told me I was no longer welcome back there.

Find out what is still in your name. It is quite possible that he has just been paying "for" you instead of changing it the way it is supposed to be. Call ALL of the old companies that provided service to you and if anything is in your name, stop that service right away. He's had ample time to sort out everything. If he gets cut off at the knees because he didn't plan properly, too bad for him.

how awful! not got any advice to give just wanted to wish you good luck sorting it all out.

Honey, the legal route is the only way in cases like this. He is being uncooperative and will not listen to reason from what you've posted so you need some clout from higher authorities.

I would go legal and then take back the Business as part of the settlement

but then again I have always been a bit of a git when it comes to money

I would go medieval.

Thanks for the advice. I fear that you're right and the legal route is the only way.

I'll send him a mail and give him one last chance to pay it or go to a lawyer. Then I'll obviously claim any legal expenses on top as well - hopefully he'll do the right thing before it gets out of hand and the costs rise considerably.

I have a feeling a lot of people won't be going back after reading this. You had a very loyal customer base which the new owner has obviously failed to establish.

Hahahaha, what a subtle way of phrasing it.

If people choose to do that, then it's up to them. I'm really only concerned about getting my money back. Whether I'm banned or not, it's not going to affect me, because I stopped going there a while ago.

That's really crap, sorry to hear it, Hazza. The new owner sounds like a lying and deceiving idiot - I would also choose the legal route because he won't understand anything else, and you've already shown kindness. Good luck with it and let us know what happens! €400 might not sound much, but when you shouldn't even have to pay it in the first place, that's just a kick in the teeth, and you don't deserve it.

Want to borrow an axe, Keydeck?

I think €400 is a reasonable amount of money. It's more than half a months rent for me, or I could go on a short holiday, or go out for 10 very good meals for that.

Thanks everyone who PM'd me details of lawyers, etc.

I've given him until Friday to contact me and pay, otherwise I'll be contacting one of these lawyers and take it from there.

If it was clear in writing that he was to take over all the business commitments then your case is strong. It would be normal, however to list those commitments so both sides were clear what actions were to be taken and to avoid "misunderstandings" such as this. There might be an argument that it wasn't clear that this particular subscription (or whatever it is) belonged to the business and should be included in the original deal. It would probably been fair if both sides could have come to an agreement over this payment, with maybe a 50:50 split just to get the problem sorted. As it is, the attitude of the new owner would seemed to have precluded a more positive forward approach so your only real approach is to resort to legal redress if you want this money. Given the history, that other commitments were transferred (have you checked them all?) and that the new owner seems to have not exactly been open in his dealings with you or provided you with information about this open debt in your name, then this reaffirms your strength of case.
Do I also interpret between the lines that he has not been forwarding (especially important) mail to you that was sent to his address in your name? This in itself might be an offence, if he knew how to reach you.

No - he never forwarded any mail to me. He used to tell me there was mail to be picked up, but that was in the early days. I haven't been told that there was any mail to pick up in several months.

Unfortunately, we didn't specify in writing that he would take over all existing committments. He was quite clear that he wanted everything "as is" though and that's how he got it. I was naiive to trust him though.

It's A Real Crying shame that there are people like that in this world. Like YL6 said, if you have ARranged Clearly everything in writing then you should have A Realistic Chance of sorting things out with a lawyer.

Such a small business really needs all the customers it can get... I say we boycott them until they pay up :-)

Good luck with it Hazza!

Shit - Hazza sold Arcor?

Alice, not Arcor. Re-read the Vent.

Why should someone else have to pass on your mail.Whenever we move i get it done at the post office and it gets sent on to my new address? Sorry but i am only getting one side of the story here.

Yes, you fill out the paper at the post office and your mail is forwarded. However it usually takes 1-2
weeks for that to actually kick-in, thus you will still receive mail at the old address. Com-on this is Germany
nothing happens instantaneously, esp anything with DPAG or DTAG

The problem with redirecting mail once you leave a business is that most of the mail you receive is relevant still to the business and not to you personally. It's a bit like leaving a company and redirecting mail addressed to you there to your home address. You'd just end up getting a whole lot of mail that's actually for the company.

So really, anything that's addressed to me at that business should be opened by the person who is now responsible for the job I once did. Other places and people that you deal with are notoriously slow in changing addressee names. If it happens to be something that affects me personally - which is quite rare, then that should be passed on. The rest should be taken care of by the new owner.

That's how it should work in theory, but has obviously not worked in practice, I will be going to the post-office today to put in a redirection to avoid it happening again.

Well, although the mail would have had Hazza's name on it, it could well have been business mail purporting to the business if all subscriptions had been continued in his name to avoid reconnection or transfer charges.
Now I can see that Hazza has been a little optimistic about the fair go, he knows that by the bill he's holding, but also I'm a similar sort who likes to hope for the best in people.

There's a phrase: "penny-wise and pound-foolish"
Yes 400€ is not that a significant amount of cash (it's sizeable, but still), but to be known for a lack of fair play or indeed a lack of sportsmanship (and that choice of word is quite specific) could cost way more long-term in a loss of goodwill and therefore customers.

So I really hope an amicable solution can be reached. Sadly it doesn't look that way if lawyers are involved, bans occur (are all posters expressing certain views on this thread also automatically barred? That will be interesting to see), boycotts are called and threads are started, especially as the whole thing could have been so easily avoided or resolved privately.

Throwing away post can be seen as Sachbeschädigung an fremden Eigentum (wilful damage to property), opening the post not addressed to you *without permission* is an attack on the Briefgeheimnis (post privacy). Both are strafbar, but am sure that any legal adviser can give the information on that seeing as it looks like Hazza will be seeing one anyway...

Penny-wise and pound-foolish indeed.