Is it OK to joke about religion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ehgBb4do8

You don't get it and neither do they. Freedom of Speech isn't about protecting speech you agree with, it's about protecting what you don't. It's about people's right to say anything any everything they want no matter how vile or repulsive you find it, because what you wish to say may be just as atrocious to me. Only with this freedom can any idea be explored, discussed and, ultimately, dismissed if unworthy of discussion.

It doesn't "play into their hands"; they're abusing the very system they wish to destroy and replace with their silly beliefs. This country went through that some 70 years ago. Read up on Weimar.

woof.

German Criminal Code - Section 166 Insulting of Faiths, Religious Societies and Organizations Dedicated to a Philosophy of Life

Jesus didn't exist. Moses didn't exist. Mohammed did exist and he was a child molestor. The Old and New Testaments are a load of nonsensical and contradictory stories written by superstitious bronze-age zealots. The Koran was written to control people during the Arab conquests of the 7th-9th century.

Offended? Call the cops. EB has my contact info.

Is there anything Muslims aren't offended by? They're even offended by scholarly work being done with the Yemeni Koran from the 7th or 8th century found in the 1970s which shows quite clearly that the Koran is NOT unchanging.

What are you going to do when the Pastafarians demand that penne be removed since it's an abomination? Pastafarians dress in full pirate regalia; what about if they get violent and start slashing the legs of any restauranteur or grocer who offers penne for sale? Will you then ssay, "Oh come on, just ditch the penne. It's offensive to them and you're just giving them an excuse to go around pilaging and raping and slashing people's limbs off"? And if you would do that, what next? Would you allow them to ban macaroni and ziti because they're also unholy tubular pasta just like penne?

We do NOT live in a theocracy and they canNOT I adhere to their religion's rules. They don't want to eat pork or draw pictures of Mohammed? Fine, but they have no right to demand I give up sausages and art.

BTW, Islam qualifies as hate speech.

woof.

alright Baddoggie, you've patronised me so I'll return the favour.

When Salman Rushdie wrote the Satanic verses he could not have imagined what would follow. But what came first? Did Ayatollah Khomenei proclaim the fatwa and the whole world of islam erupt? No, it was the other way around. Crowds of young men (badmarsh) in Pakistan who had already rioted over Midnight's Children for its negative view of Pakistan started bookburning the Satanic verses. Almost all of them had not read the book and many thought they were rioting because of another slur against Pakistan. But others who condemned the book because of blasphemy started rabble rousing and the riots grew, and spread.

By the time it came to the notice of Teheran there had already been several weeks of angry protest. Satanic Verses had alredy been published in persian at that sage and had passed the notoriously conservative censor in the Islamic Republic. Khomeinei didn't therefore issue his fatwa because they had pre-decided Rushdie was wrong. He issued the fatwa because South Asia was in flames and by hooking hs cause onto their anger he could exploit it. And he did.

Fast forward 20 years and the exploitation of the rabble in the bazaars of South Asia and elsewhere has become an artform for extremist fascist elements. Only now, unlike Rushdie, we know that these elements pray for us to press the right buttons to make t happen. So why the fuck do we do it? Over and over and over again. Jeez its like we want them to become popular with the stupid rabble. Like we are spoiling for the big confrontation rather than the peaceful coexistence.

In a perfect world it wouldn't matter what we did or siad about Mohammed. But in the deeply flawed world we live in, where we know that real people get injured, killed and conflicts begin because of these fundamental misunderstandings, why the fuck do we keep provoking them?

If they don't like it, they can leave. I will not be silenced nor intimidated. Any right worth having is worth fighting for. NO DHIMMITUDE.

woof.

ach heck with it. BadDoggie and all who think like you should be banished to the Isle of Wight with all the Islamofascists until you have all blown each other up. And then the rest of us cxan just get on and live in peace.

Here's an Irish Viewpoint...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3UL_uCNWCo...feature=related

From the Religious Policeman, a Muslim blogger sadly no longer writing, the Muslim "Offense Level"...



LOW
Meaning - We are slightly miffed, although we are not sure why. We think we are not as popular as we would like to be.
Non-Muslim response - Tread very carefully and do not offend us
Consequence of non-compliance - We will get very cross and stamp our feet

GUARDED
Meaning - We are quite offended, because people are generally picking on us.
Non-Muslim response - Stop making jokes about us
Consequence of non-compliance - We will rant on about "Islamophobia" and "Orientalism", although we don't understand what those words really mean

ELEVATED
Meaning - We are definitely cross, because people keep blaming us for 9/11, Parisian cars getting torched, Saudi women getting stoned
Non-Muslim response - Pretend that these things have nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, tell everyone how we brought algebra to 9th Century Spain
Consequence of non-compliance - We will cause even more mayhem. Did you leave your car out in the street?

HIGH
Meaning - We are extremely offended by a particular individual or country
Non-Muslim response - That individual or country must apologize
Consequence of non-compliance - Individual; Fatwa, assassination, or both. Country; Boycott (unless you export things the Saudi Royal Family are consumers of), and Saudi newspapers write a long string of boring and repetitive articles that you will never read but will drive Saudi readers to distraction.

SEVERE
Meaning - We have had enough of your rudeness and ridicule and have gone completely ballistic
Non-Muslim response - We demand that the Pope and President Bush go down on their knees and apologize personally for every rude thing that everyone has ever said about us over the last 1400 years, and promise that it won't happen again
Consequence of non-compliance - We will cease the export of oil, therefore depriving the numerous Saudi Royal Family of all income, we will cease the import of all cars, tanks, airplanes (military and civil), computers, building technology, infrastructure and general professional expertise, and we will stop visiting Western fleshpots like the South of France, the USA, London... Honest. We will. We really mean it this time. Just you wait. We really will. You better believe it. We're not kidding. We're telling you. Honest. Don't make us do it...

oh yeah

Billy Connolly on religion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ7azQMe6RA

It doesn't matter what my creed, colour, religion, sexual-orientation or shoe-size is. I'm gonna stand up for free speech; whatever is said and whenever it's said. It's called free speech.

Islam is a fucking joke. A "peaceful" religion? Attack it and the first response is violence. Actually, their only response is violence.

@ BTC - Are you real? That I should modify my opinions lest I offend someone and may provoke them? Not as long as free speech prevails matey.

There's far too much PC in this world today. There really is.

If you're not willing to fight for your rights then you don't deserve them. GDIAF. I have no more respect for you. I'd expect a faggot to have a little bit more concern about personal rights and dignity. Apparently I'm mistaken in this belief. Don't ask, don't tell, huh?

woof.

<opens popcorn>

I have to agree with baddoggie, a muslim from pakistan or whereever sitting in europe and declaming something of our freedom of speech culture is like me paying for a day ticket to a nudist colony and standing fully clothed in the middle of it shouting "I'm disgusted! Appalled!! How dare you walk in front of my eyes with no clothes on!!"

the irony is of course that they use our freedom of speech to protest against our freedom of speech. something that wouldn't be allowed in their home countries where there is no freedom of speech

I would rather fight for basic human rights like mutual respect, the right to health, wealth and freedom than spend any time on a fruitless and puerile right to blaspheme another religion frankly. In the end its just common sense, if you meet someone important for the first time you don't call them an "arsewiping cunt" to their face and fighting for the right to do so in the name of free speech is frankly absurd.

Voltaire never said that, but somebody will fight for your right to misquote him.

As for joking about religion being OK, does the Pope shit in the woods?

And there you have it. Islam is not about any "mutual respect"; it's about subjugation. The damned word means "submission". Islam is a set of rules that establish a social hierarchy in which Muslim men submit to Allah, women submit to men and all non-Muslims submit to Islamic rule. The Koran repeatedly states that those who don't submit are subhuman and calls for their death, though there's an exception: dhimmi. That's the act of paying a tithe as well as living under sharia rule.

That is the essence of the religion, plain and simple. It's not a fair playing field. It's all take and no give. Muslims take advantage of Western values in much the same way Scientology takes advantage of the court system: both use it only as far as it serves them in furthering their aims.

It's not a matter of blaspheming; I have already provided a link to proof of centuries of Islamic artists' portrayals of Mohammed. It's a fight to protect free speech, nothing less.

That is completely within my rights to do so and if he's someone important, than I may suffer the consequences like not getting the job or contract. But some fucking stranger isn't "important" and in no way should or would I change my behaviour just to placate him and his absurd superstition. Would you stop eating penne and support a ban on all tubular noodles just because it would make an FSMer happy?

woof.

did you read that in a pamphlet somehwre. maybe you should try talking to some moslems instead. I used to live in a moslem country and can tell you that islam is VERY much more diverse than you seem to think and is also far closer to Christianity and Judaism in its outlook than you imply.

No, I read the fucking Koran, you little don't ask, don't tell dhimmi. I don't give a rat's ass what certain people you know are like. That's not the subject of this thread. And no shit it's "close to Judaism and Christianity"; thank you Captain Obvious. Except that the other two Abrahamic religions don't say that anyone not of the faith should be killed. DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? KILLED. It is a basic religious tenet that anyone who refuses to convert is subhuman and should be KILLED. Read the fucking book: Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2


So diverse that you think my freedom of speech should be stifled so as not to violate the rules of a fucking Bronze Age cult of which I am not a member? What was it like having sex under penalty of death, knowing that giving head could cause you to lose yours? Are you willing to go back into the closet here in Germany so that a bunch of fucking cultists won't be offended? Neither am I willing to have my speech suppressed.

woof.

Muhammad, as the central human figure in Islam was a warrior who by all accounts was an enthusiastic soldier and assassin. Islam is not a religion of peace.

This quote is out of context and therefore meaningless. You could pull similar shite out of the Bible.

Then do so. Then find me groups of Christians who actually adhere to such calls.

That "out of context" complaint is bullshit. This is only one of many passages which instruct the same thing, but since you seem to be in a masochistic mood, I'll add the context:


woof.

You're wearing your stupid hat today aren't you?

Look at verse 2:190 - that's the one before the one you quoted. Your translation says:


I've added emphasis. A more modern translation says:


There is no blanket order to attack and kill all infidels as you alleged: rather the reverse.

By the way, context doesn't only mean 'the surrounding verses'. It means 'what the passage is about'.

You're dressed in the full uniform. This is a thread about Freedom of Speech you fucking moran, not about your selected interpretation of a Bronze Age book. You also employ a tiresome, typical religionist tactic: moving the goalposts. You complained that I took the verse out of context and when I gave the full context, complained that your different translation allows you to offer up some other interpretation, ignoring the fact that Muslims say you're not allowed to translate the damned book to begin with. Moran.

There are a lot of Muslims who interpret the book literally and this was the point of this entire thread, you illiterate gobshite. And it's because of their sensitivities that dhimmi fucks like BtC (who ought to know better considering his circumstances) are claiming that these people's beliefs somehow trump my rights to Free Speech. Fuck that, fuck him, and fuck you too.

woof.

You said:


And then posted an out of context line to prove it. When challenged you provided some surrounding verses which included the phrase '...begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.'

Which holes your argument below the waterline. Huffing and puffing doesn't make you right.

May i just clear things up here, all westerners see the bastards from the middle east as being total cunts and prepared to kill us.

A commonly held view is that we should fuckin nuke all of them and atsrt again.

Anyone who 'thinks' like that is a fucking cunt.

Bring it on then Wheel cos i was married to a girl from Saudi and i think that way, name your time and place.

The middle eastern bastards deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth frankly.

I've read it too BD, but unlike you I didn't take it too literally. There was a heap of a lot of good sense and wisdom in it, just as there is in the Bible. There is also a whole lot that is up for debate as to whether it is in any way applicable today in a modern pluralistic society for all three Abrahamic religions. For example:


you can find this in Deuteronomy 17:


it is actually just one of several places in the Torah (cannonical to both Judaism and Christianity) where non-believers are commanded to be put to death.

Now, if you are going to argue that Islam is ALL wrong because there are verses like that in the Koran then you should extend the (dis)courtesy to Christianity and Judaism too

Or you could take a more nuanced approach and recognise that moderates of all three religions take an exegetical approach to their religious texts.

Im not interested in moderates of islam, i'm interested in the psycho crazy ones that want to blow me up

and last time I looked, the christian fundamentalists in america wern't planning on crashing planes into london

Sorry, thought you were arguing in defence of tha sand flies worm

That's because they were bombing the shit out of various impoverished defenceless countries in the middle East and beyond. But it's a long way away so it doesn't matter, right?

Are they carpet bombing middle eastern countries at the moment? I hadn't seen that on the news. I had heard they were attempting to precision bomb terrorist bases in afghanistan. I think those bases are quite heavily armed and possibly not really "defenceless"

Over 200,000 have been killed by bombing (by the US and UK) in Iraq. Precision bollocks.

It ain't a matter of me taking it literally. It's a matter of adherents taking it literally.

Not a goddamned shred save for a couple "Do unto others" and "help the helpless"passages. It's un-fucking-readable, so sayeth the greatest scholars who speak Arabic.

Now find me a Jew or a Christian who actually adheres to that. Just one. Today alone there have been nine deaths and 12 injuries in two Muslim attacks, one in Lashkar Gah, Afghanistan and the other in Mogadishu (Somalia). This goes on Every. Fucking. Day. See the tally for yourself. All counts for Iraq are religious-based killing, not political (although it's hard to tell the difference under Islam).

woof.

oh well, not saying that it doesn't suck to be one of them, but as far as I'm concerned, thats 200,000 less people who might want to blow me up

Oh ha-de-fucking ha-ha.

Ahhh i see my aggression against Worm shpuld have been adressed to the Wheel, fuck off sand fly and contribute somethiong useful to the world instead of being a potential suicide tosser/

fight.fight.fight

love it

No, i don't regard some mad mullah's words as being true, nor do i envisage virgins waiting for me, if you are one of those middle eastern tossers then you should be wiped out and stat !

<opens popcorn> ™ MonksTown

You missed all the fun. I suppose it'll kick off again on Monday but I'll be working so someone else will have to do the honours.

No, they don't go to those kind of extremes themselves, they get the U.S government to do it for them, (things like invading middle eastern countries, supporting arms funding for Israel...)

Fuck off, odel. This is not a site for you. All I have to say is "September 1, 1939" and you lose. Go away. This is a conversation for grown-ups. It's about Freedom of Speech. Go away.

woof.

FFS did you actually even bother to read what I wrote? Why do you assume that Christians and Jews are the only ones to be able to interpret scripture in the modern age? Do you really suppose every moslem reads the Koran as a set of instructions and only Xians and Jews have the power of moderation and crítical faculties?

and all 200,000 of them wanted to blow you up? the old women? the children? the disabled? The ordinary folks who just happened to be trying to get bread when their market place was blown to smithereens? the cowering families hiding in their homes while they were raked by US gunfire? the suburban bagdadis more used to cocktail parties and fashion shows who were wiped out by carpet bombing. Really, all 200,000 were a threat to you personally?

No, but only one of the three Abrahamic religions has a significant number of followers who do interpret their respective texts literally and the death count (did you follow the link that I posted?) is rising daily.

You still haven't explained why someone else's silly beliefs should trump my freedom. You also haven't answered my question about whether you think it's right to be forced back into the closet. You have likewise failed to answer any of my similar questions concerning the FSMers and penne. Please return to the subject. This is not about the Peaceful <spit> Religion of Islam; this is about Free Speech.

woof.

Touched a nerve there obviously.

and from the point of view of the middle east that would be the Crusader Christian USA wouldn't it? Or possibly the Zionist state of Israel?


I thought I had made myself clear. You have the freedom to insult but hopefully the discretion to think better of it.


I don't think it is right to be forced back into the closet. BD you get me wrong. I am not a defender of the intolernance of islam any more than I am similarly an opponent of Catholic, Protestant , Jewish and Atheist intolerance.


because it was a frankly specious question. I am not an individual bursting at the seams to insult islam so avoiding doing so is no great hardship. And I am certainly not avoiding blaspheming Mohammed and Allah just to please moslem people. I don't need to. It costs me absolutely nothing not to. And generally I think the world would be a better place if most people just put themselves in other shoes for a moment and start living a life of mutual respect.

In the end I would expect the same of moslams and catholics towards me as a sexual minority. The fact that most religious adherents do not deliver that respect is deplorable but should in no way change my world view.


If free speech is all about the right to insult, impugn and incite hatred I want nothing to do with it at all.