norwegianstudent
Apr 30 2008, 2:48 pm
QUOTE (norwegianstudent @ Apr 30 2008, 3:23 pm)
One must separate between an immoral and "illegal" action.
When person A has bought the Umweltskarte, he has finished a transaction between himself and company B, that allows him to use their services. It´s done. The card itself is nothing but a practical invention that enables B to ensure that A uphold his part of the transaction.
If A loses this physical card, it is hard to argue that the only morally acceptable option for him is to perform the transaction again, or not to use Bs services. Remember that B has got routines for catching those who have not upheld his part of the transaction. Given the fact that A has indeed performed the transaction, he is in his full rights to avoid those routines when possible.
QUOTE (timezoner @ Apr 30 2008, 3:32 pm)
i sure Mr controller would accept this
Lol, a controller with some sense of logics would say:
If your story is true, you have done nothing wrong. But it is not possible to verify, hence you have to pay the fine.
berny
Apr 30 2008, 2:51 pm
if you can prove that you did indeed buy a monthly ticket (reciept/kontoauszug/credit card bill/mvv abo) then you can pop along to the MVV offices and get the fine reduced from €40 to a €5 handling fee. MVV Abo tickets can be replaced.
Theyre not monsters. They just do their job.
As the german warning says; "We've heard all the excuses. Please dont waste your or our time."
(*edit*apologies, im just floating around. it may be different in Berlin, but i doubt it*/edit*)
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 2:55 pm
Whether your position is "immoral" or "illegal", you need to simply accept that if you can't prove that you have purchased and validated a ticket when traveling, in nearly every case you will be fined.
The onus is on the traveller to prove that they have paid. So if your caught, just pay up and get on with it. As I've pointed out a number of times before, it is cheap and easy to buy long term tickets. If you loose your monthly ticket, that is your fault, and not that of the transport operators. Therefore it is up to you to sort it out through whatever processes exist, and if your too lazy or disorganised to do that, then you are not in a position to travel.
Hazza
Apr 30 2008, 2:55 pm
QUOTE (berny @ Apr 30 2008, 3:51 pm)
if you can prove that you did indeed buy a monthly ticket (reciept/kontoauszug/credit card bill/mvv abo) then you can pop along to the MVV offices and get the fine reduced from €40 to a €5 handling fee. MVV Abo tickets can be replaced.
Theyre not monsters. They just do their job.
As the german warning says; "We've heard all the excuses. Please dont waste your or our time."
(*edit*apologies, im just floating around. it may be different in Berlin, but i doubt it*/edit*)
I used to just buy my monthly ticket at the local kiosk. Pay cash, get ticket, leave. No receipt, no proof other than the ticket. So really no point arguing over the fine.
Of course, now I have a personalised card with my photo on it. If I forget it at home now, then it's quite easy to prove that I have a non-transferable ticket.
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 2:57 pm
QUOTE (berny @ Apr 30 2008, 3:51 pm)
if you can prove that you did indeed buy a monthly ticket (reciept/kontoauszug/credit card bill/mvv abo) then you can pop along to the MVV offices and get the fine reduced from €40 to a €5 handling fee. MVV Abo tickets can be replaced.
Theyre not monsters. They just do their job.
As the german warning says; "We've heard all the excuses. Please dont waste your or our time."
(*edit*apologies, im just floating around. it may be different in Berlin, but i doubt it*/edit*)
Spot on berny, thats the way it is!
lilplatinum
Apr 30 2008, 3:10 pm
QUOTE (colinmanning @ Apr 30 2008, 3:55 pm)
Whether your position is "immoral" or "illegal", you need to simply accept that if you can't prove that you have purchased and validated a ticket when traveling, in nearly every case you will be fined.
They must be strict in Berlin. I've been in Hamburg since last July and only had my ticket checked twice.. Kinda pissed i've been paying 40 bucks a month for it actually
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 3:13 pm
So who should pay for the running of the public transport ? - everybody else except you! This is a nonsence position. If you don't want to pay, don't use the public transport - walk, use a bike or buy a car.
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 3:17 pm
QUOTE (colinmanning @ Apr 30 2008, 3:55 pm)
Whether your position is "immoral" or "illegal", you need to simply accept that if you can't prove that you have purchased and validated a ticket when traveling, in nearly every case you will be fined.
Clearly what I meant to say above was:
Whether your position is "immoral" or "illegal", you need to simply accept that if you can't prove that you have purchased and validated a ticket when traveling and your ticket is checked, in nearly every case you will be fined.
Apologies for being misleading!
lilplatinum
Apr 30 2008, 3:22 pm
QUOTE (colinmanning @ Apr 30 2008, 4:13 pm)
So who should pay for the running of the public transport - everybody else except you! This is a nonsence position. If you don't want to pay, don't use the public transport - walk, use a bike or buy a car.
I don't want to pay for anything, I still do. I was replying to your statement 'in nearly every case you will be fined'. Here, in almost no case you would be fined because they never stop you. (Edit: It seems i misread that sorry, I guess you were saying every time you get checked you'll get fined)
Plus my guilt in screwing a government program is lessened when 40% of my bloody paycheck is stolen. But I still pay the 40 bucks a month to avoid a hastle.
norwegianstudent
Apr 30 2008, 3:26 pm
Yeah, I would accept that on the spot. But someone claimed that it was infact morally wrong to ride withouth a ticket when you have already payed for using the services. That´s plain bull.
As for the "Therefore it is up to you to sort it out through whatever processes exist, and if your too lazy or disorganised to do that, then you are not in a position to travel.".
And that´s pretty much what the guy did - who managed to fool the controllers. He sorted it out on his own.
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 3:32 pm
QUOTE (lilplatinum @ Apr 30 2008, 4:22 pm)
I don't want to pay for anything, I still do. I was replying to your statement 'in nearly every case you will be fined'. Here, in almost no case you would be fined because they never stop you.
Plus my guilt in screwing a government program when 40% of my bloody paycheck is stolen. But I still pay the 40 bucks a month to avoid a hastle.
I re-iterate, who do you want to pay for your public transport system. No country in the world can or does this via taxation. Taxation is used to subsidise the system, there is no way it can cover the full running costs.
As for the money stolen from your paycheck, I think that is a strange way to look at taxation. You pay tax in every country. In Germany, tax and health insurance is relatively high, but the services are pretty good - in particular healthcare and education, the roads, general city maintenance etc. If you want to live in Germany, then you must pay your way like everyone else - you get nothing for nothing.
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 3:34 pm
QUOTE (norwegianstudent @ Apr 30 2008, 4:26 pm)
And that´s pretty much what the guy did - who managed to fool the controllers. He sorted it out on his own.
And the point me and a number of others are making, which gets back to the original point in this thread is that if you are caught, you've not "fooled the controllers" (as you so nicely put it), so just pay up and move along.
lilplatinum
Apr 30 2008, 3:36 pm
I re-iterate, I pay for public transportation willingly, I also pay for shit I will never use forcibly - hell even if I walked every day i'd still be taxed to pay for public transport i dont use (unless it operates 100% on ticket sales). I just reserve the right to bitch and moan about it like every other taxpayer in the world. I also don't feel morally bad about downloading music on the internet.
timezoner
Apr 30 2008, 3:38 pm
QUOTE (lilplatinum @ Apr 30 2008, 4:36 pm)
I re-iterate, I pay for public transportation willingly,
I wouldn't go that far Liplatinum
colinmanning
Apr 30 2008, 3:39 pm
QUOTE (lilplatinum @ Apr 30 2008, 4:36 pm)
I re-iterate, I pay for public transportation willingly, I also pay for shit I will never use forcibly. I just reserve the right to bitch and moan about it like every other taxpayer in the world. I also don't feel morally bad about downloading music on the internet.
Bitch and moan all you like, just don't complain when you're caught, if you are knowingly breaking the rules. It's fair game in this situation the the folks on the supply side impose a fine or take whatever action against you they have in their terms of use.
lilplatinum
Apr 30 2008, 3:39 pm
I made the choice to pay knowing full well i could most likely get away with train hopping, thats willingly. Grudgingly, perhaps, but still willingly.
I'm not bitching about getting caught, if you do get caught - you took the risk.. I was reply to the sentiment of immorality, no problem with the rules being there. In fac t, the rules should be stricter, I should have been checked more than 3 times in 9 months.
Fribble
Apr 30 2008, 3:54 pm
It's easier to accept paying the fare if you know you have to show proof more often, for example having to swipe a card or use a token before entering the platform. If I'm never checked, I start to wonder how often I could have gotten away without paying. Bus drivers are the worst. I hardly ever remember to switch my cards and usually wind up using the one from last month for a week or two accidentally. Nobody ever notices!
highered
Apr 30 2008, 7:03 pm
QUOTE (lilplatinum @ Apr 30 2008, 4:39 pm)
In fac t, the rules should be stricter, I should have been checked more than 3 times in 9 months.
Why? more controls would add to the costs of running the transit system. The goal is to have enough controls to get most people to buy a ticket, but not enough to be a costly burden.
Krieg
May 4 2008, 6:20 pm
QUOTE (lilplatinum @ Apr 30 2008, 4:39 pm)
In fac t, the rules should be stricter, I should have been checked more than 3 times in 9 months.
Actually people should do things because they know they have to do it.
sjjwyatt
May 4 2008, 6:30 pm
do the crime, pay the (time) fine...
now you know not to do it again.
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