Zimbabwe going to pot under Mugabe

Life expectancy of 37, inflation at 100,000%, hundreds of thousands made homeless and jobless and starved by their own government.

Why have Western and African leaders apparently done nothing for so long about the situation in Zimbabwe? Are they just so used to African dictators who abuse their people while living in the lap of luxury that they've come to accept them, and therefore refuse to act when they see a dictator destroying a whole country and its people? Or is it because the people who are suffering are predominantly black? Apart from the current election coverage, the media noise about Zimbabwe seems to have died down in the years since Robert Mugabe introduced his farm confiscation policy and the suffering faces were white.

It's been almost 6 years since Jack Straw said this:


It must have been wishful thinking because there doesn't seem to be much evidence that Zimbabwe is a pariah nation. Refusing to shake hands with Robert Mugabe seems to be about as far as they'll go.

I think the poinient question is why have Zimbabwe's neighbours not done a thing. Democracies like South Africa and Mozambique should hang their heads in shame. Mozambique, especially, since that country was all to hasty in applying sanctions to Rhodesia to bring down the governement but now that the ogre in charge is black, they do nothing and sit back and watch a whole country fall to ruins at the hands of one madman.

But they don't as it's 'all a western plot'.

Given the UK's history in the region us doing anything is only fueling the Mugabe propoganda machine.

As Owain says, it's the nations in the neighbourhood who could do something but have their own agendas.

@Lorelei: what have leaders of other countries got to do with problems in Zim? They are powerless there. The only people who can change things are the Zimbos themselves, and astonishingly enough, it looks like they might be in the process of doing just that.

maybe adrian_t but then again I'd bet that the boots and truncheons will be out soon enough "restoring law and order" with some good old fashioned skull crunching.

@Pas, OG: I don't think it would help one bit if other govts in the region denounced Mugabe. Several African leaders have done just that, but Mugabe just doesn't care. All South Africa can do is take in the refugees and wait for the old man to die (or get voted/forced out - hold thumbs).

The people yielding "boots and truncheons" are people too - they won't play along indefinitely.

er, the UK did try but the international community failed to back them and that led Mugabe to portray the UK as an ex-Colonoial power seeking to undermine the government. The Uk did persuade the Commonwealth of nations to suspend Zimbabwe in 2002 over the apalling land grab and redistribution of farmland and Nigeria and South Africa have also tried to play a role in persuading Mugabe to stand aside (unsuccessfully).

Don't hold your breath.

Jamie, I'm certainly holding it today - this could be a very big day for Zim.

I hope so but I doubt that Mugabe is going to go quietly. But hey, stranger things can happen I suppose.

It would be a fantastic day.

What do you want other countries to do if Mugabe cheats his way through the elections? Invade? It didn't work in Sudan.

Iraq is a good example of better to NOT interfere sometimes. It's like a cruel to be kind thing. They reckon that Western food aid has possibly prolonged the unacceptable Zimbabwe situation and allowed the government to stay in power too long. We can see the Western invasion of a country can only ever be short-term so whatever we do, ultimately we will need to back out, and then leave things to the local people to sort out.

So it's shitty, but we should just let them sort it out themselves.

The Americans are busy right now restoring democracy to the eternally grateful people of Iraq, I am sure that Zimbabwe is next on the list

how

The Americans are busy right now restoring democracy to the eternally grateful people of Iraq, I am sure that Zimbabwe is next on the list

how do

Is there oil in Zimbabwe?

It's foreign involvement that has gotten most of Africa into the crappy state they're in now. If foreign governments hadn't been colonizing and arming militas for decades to promote their diamond mining or whatever other interests, they'd all be a damn sight better off today.

latest ..


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7321938.stm

Sorry but compare the economy of Zimbawe after the Sailsbury House agreement, and it now. Same independant country, different picture. Its more complicated than just pointing the finger at the white man, ishhh!

So, if it weren't for foreign interference, African leaders wouldn't be oppressing African people and living off the fat of the land while their people suffer? They'd go back to being... well, what were they really like before colonialism?

I believe it was here that I read the first principle of post colonialist existentialism: If a tree falls in the woods, and there's nobody there to blame it on western colonialism, did it really fall?

Raiding each others tribes and selling each other for slavery.

absolutely. Zimmbabwe at independce was in good shape and up to 20 years ago it was the breadbasket of Africa being self-sufficient for food, with a vibrant economy, one of the longest life sxpectancies and highest adult lliteracy in Africa. There was every reason to be optimistic about its future. That it now has the shortest life expectancy, a collapsed economy and is now dependent entirely on food imports is fairly and squarely the fault of Mugabe and ZANU-PF.

So are we like what we were like before Colonialism?

It's all moot anyway as we are where we are and it's about forging a future not wallowing in the past.

strange. when it was white people doing the dirty on the majority of the population, African countries got involved. In fact, the whole world got involved. Why does Mugabe deserve better treatment?

Part I:

That's the important bit. The American economy is now in the shitter for the exact same reason.

And exactly what should they do? Invade?

Correct. Every western action has been used by Mugabe's propaganda machine to his benefit.

That's what Mugabe's doing now.

I'm outraged at the school system which released you without teaching you even some of the most basic lessons about civil wars, such as "civil wars have NEVER been resolved by outside forces."

Which only gave his propaganda that much more ammunition. "See, Mugabe is FIGHTING the foreigners who tell us what to do and WILL NOT let them dictate what our country does!"

woof.

Part II:

Fuck me, JE is the voice of reason here.

I suggest you change that last letter in your user name from an R to an IDIOT.

Define "whatever other interests": there are quite few beyond early colonialisation in various dick-waving attempts, and attempts to de-colonise only made things worse as all the tribes that had been killing each other before colonisation attacked each other in renewed and increased efforts to take over in the resulting power vacuum. Western diamond interests were never national but private.

Voice of Reason #2.

And #3.

woof.

pretty much like the rest of the world then...except that may be 'civilised' kingdoms were much more effective in their raids and the 'feudal folk' slaves were probably not caught and sold, they were born into it...

move on...

no good old sanctions. If Mozambique and South Africa joined in sanctions Zimbabwe would be brought to its knees swiftly. It was Mozambique's sanctions that brought the white minority government of Ian Smith to its knees in 1979 by cuttting off the only access to the sea. Because Zimbabwe is in such a state now sanctions would work even quicker. Admittedly short term pain for the population but i think that is better than the current state of affairs dragging on indefinately.

hmm, the issue for the South African government is that Zimbabwe under Mugabe sheltered and supported the ANC for years when the rest of the world ignored the plight of South Africa. Mugabe has played on this debt of honour to manipulate the South Africans.

er, the Zimbabwean econbomy has already collapsed OG. It is difficult to see what effect sanctions would have on a country already on its knees.

at the moment, Mugabe and his cronies are somewhat shielded from the economic collapse due to their hard currency reserves. If efforts were made to freeze all assets in all countries (not just the UK etc) Mugabe would have no means to buy his support. even his closest allies would turn against him if they could no longer access their <insert tax haven of choice> accounts. Mugabe needs to be totally isolated from the international scene and countries and organisations should stop inviting representative from his government to anything.

well the fat lady hasn't sung yet. Maybe just maybe Mugabe will concede defeat and we can all breathe a sigh of relief.

there is serious vote rigging going on by all accounts. So I don't think Uncle Bob has given up yet.

The electoral roll is said to be full of dead people, including Ian Smith. No prizes for guessing who he'll be voting for. (I wonder what he would have said if he'd have been asked whether he'd ever vote for Robert Mugabe. "Over my dead body"?)

There are too many to list, but you can't deny that the systematic rape of Africa by various western countries for profit has contributed to many of it's problems today. I'm not saying they wouldn't have had their problems anyway, but you can kill a hell of a lot more people when armed with automatic weapons as opposed to blow-darts.
Anyway, it does seem that anything the west does there now will be seen as aggressive and intrusive.

My gut reaction would be to cut the cord and let the african countries soft themselves out.

Without any kind of aid a few of the dictatorships may have trouble holding on to power.

However this will never happen as there are still a lot of respources in africa and if we do not deal with those in power then there are others who will.

In fact, the people who will step in (and are already) have blocked action in Sudan on many occasions.

It is a governments job to look out for its peoples interests and maybe take its friends interests into account.

With all the resources in africa our governments are just doing their job. Dealing with the leaders of various african countries to make sure we benefit.

Which means you can't name any and are using an appeal to emotion and a false claim of authority.

Sure I can. You know me better than that. Western influence in Africa was anything but systematic and was no different than any other action in the rest of the world, except that many African countries are still unable to govern themselves despite decades of assistance, unlike, say, South America and Asia.

Good thing, since most of their problems are STILL tribal. The wars are all amongst tribes who have been trying to kill each other for thousands of years.

I beg to differ. This is the continued state of conditions in much of Africa. Please do read the comments since that board is a moderated forum of people knowledgeable about bows.

woof.

Vote Rigging, Corrupt Governments, Election Fraud, Intimidation... could be easily forgiven for thinking we are talking about the US here, maybe Mugabe has seen how well things worked out for Dubya and decided to try his hand.

I thought that's exactly what I was saying, but obviously I was wrong. Let me try again: either the Zimbabweans will sort this out, or it won't be sorted out at all.

@OG: Sanctions won't do anything to Mugabe - he's got a whole country to himself.

@DJGrazy: You're an idiot. Now you have it from me too.

a whole country of what? bits of paper with $10,000,000,000,000,000 printed on them that are worth about 10 cents each?

The only reason he is able to cling on to power is because of his and his cronies' foreign currency accounts.

I also think that if Zimbabwe's neighbours had openly criticised Mugabe far earlier the internal opposition would have been able to muster far greater support. Sanctions would have been a way to voice opposition. It is too late for broads scale sanctions, i admit, but you have to make the effort to hurt Mugabe where it will count.

He hardly needs foreign currency. The place still functions well enough to cater to Mugabe's needs. I do agree that regional leaders shouldn't be so polite to him, but I really don't think it makes a difference to whether he stays in power or not.

The solution to this problem is either to wait until he dies, or hope that his people get sick enough of him to do something about it.

I disagree.

OG does have a point

However Mugabe thrives on presenting himself (and the Zimbabwean people) as a victim of foreign conspiracies. That fact alone makes it necessary that his nemesis be within Zimbabwe

Quite probably true. The only alternative is a unified approach from the rest of the nations on the planet, which we seem completely an utterly unable to do as we always seem to look after our own interests and, when things look bad, call in historic debts. The concept of the United Nations and genuine human rights is completely flawed because of this.

For Christ's sake! Gold for another if you must have a list, and my not knowing every single thing that was stolen or taken cheap from Africa does not disprove my point. (see Non sequitur in my bad debating tactics thread)
Otherwise, I'd concede you had a few valid points, if I wasn't now thoroughly miffed with you.
PS: I was right about the Gulf Stream, and you were wrong, wrong, wrong! Ha!

Iraq was more important.

One of the reasons, South Africa and Botswana support Mugabe ( 'silent diplomacy') is because they think that any alternative system is bound to create chaos in the region...I just dont understand how Mbeki feels the current status is better...

On the other hand the MDC ( primary opposition in Zimbabwe) accuses that all other countries in the region are used to having the same set of people ( 'elitist' in a twisted way) in power and they dont want a party born of the masses ( sic. the MDC) to come to power..

This has naught to do with Iraq. The most intervention anyone sane has suggested is the freezing of some bank accounts.