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Zimbabwe going to pot under Mugabe

Why don't other countries get involved?

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Themes > Miscellaneous
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Von
Other African nations have never dared to openly criticise Mugabe because of his role as a freedom fighter against white colonialism. It's that simple.

Personally, I would hope that Mugabe will finally realise his time is up and concede the election. To the best of my knowledge, he won't end up in the Hague on trial (correct me if I'm wrong) so has the opportunity to live out the rest of his years as an elder statesman (babbling away to anyone who will listen to him), financed by his Swiss bank accounts.

As the living standards in the country improve (sanctions lifted, western aid and investment etc), in time the people might come to regard him through rose-tinted glasses (as the freedom fighter and founder) and not as the dictator who lost the plot and brought the country to its knees. That's the message I would hope his confidantes would be trying to impress on him.

It is time for someone else to take Zimbabwe forward. My only concern would be that once the strong man has gone, a power vacuum is created and the tribalism that has plagued Africa for centuries, will rear its ugly head once again.
Bell the cat
quite extraordinarily the Guardian are saying that ZANU-PF have conceded defeat but say that the MDC has not achieved enough to avoid a second runn-off in three week's time. The results themselves have not been released
sharpe
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Mar 31 2008, 1:22 pm) *
What do you want other countries to do if Mugabe cheats his way through the elections? Invade? It didn't work in Sudan.

But it worked in Iraq. Look, how happy and rich people are there now.
adrian_t
Look, again, this thread really has nothing to do with Amiland and Iraq.

It looks very much like Bob couldn't find enough people to actively screw with the election results for him, which is a very good sign. If it does come to a run-off, I predict that Tsvangirai will win comfortably.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (adrian_t @ Apr 1 2008, 2:18 pm) *
It looks very much like Bob couldn't find enough people to actively screw with the election results for him, which is a very good sign. If it does come to a run-off, I predict that Tsvangirai will win comfortably.

OR, as the MDC have pointed out, the three weeks to the run off gives ZANU-PF the opportunity to mount more convincing electoral fraud in time.
Von
Breaking news: "Deal 'close' for Mugabe to leave"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7325286.stm
Bell the cat
I do so hope this is going to end peacefully. The Zimbabweans desperately need something to go right.

On the Guardian web page they say the army may be a key player in Mugabe stepping aside
Bell the cat
now the BBC also highlight the key role of the miitary
Wundebar
Latest results (parliamentary seats) ZANU-PF 78, MDC 77 MDC (Mutambara faction) 5. These are the results so far out of a possible 210 seats. The releasing of results is inexplicably moving at a snail's pace.
http://www.zimonline.co.za has some good info on the situation in Zim.
Zimbabweans have gone through so much in the pat 10 years. My heart goes out to everyone there.
miwild
The independent voice of Zimbabwe ...

Pas
Well it's good to see Uncle Bob is finally cracking down on election fraud in his country.

This man will stop at nothing



QUOTE
Zimbabwean police have arrested at least five officials for allegedly under-counting votes cast for President Robert Mugabe in last month's election. Police said the election officials have been charged with fraud and criminal abuse of duty, accused of taking nearly 5,000 votes away from Mr Mugabe.

etc.
Bell the cat
this whole thing is frankly extraordinary. How can Mugabe seriously hope to rule with any credibility in or outside Zimbabwe if he succeeds in retaining the presidency?
Pas
At what point has he been ruling with either of those in the last decade or so?
FirstCitizen
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Mar 31 2008, 1:22 pm) *
What do you want other countries to do if Mugabe cheats his way through the elections? Invade? It didn't work in Sudan.

It did work in Sierra Leone though, (although Blair claimed it as a victory for the British military, when in fact most of the fighting was done by mercenaries).
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Pas @ Apr 8 2008, 9:00 am) *
At what point has he been ruling with either of those in the last decade or so?

he could at least claim he won the elections concerned and that zthis was supported by the regional powers. He cannot claim either of these things now.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (FirstCitizen @ Apr 8 2008, 9:01 am) *
It did work in Sierra Leone though, (although Blair claimed it as a victory for the British military, when in fact most of the fighting was done by mercenaries).

Er, Sierra Leone had been in a state of civil war and the troops that helped restore peace were not 'mercenaries' but UN forces including szeable contingents from Nigeria and the UK as the two regional powers with the greatest responsibility for Siera Leone's peace.
FirstCitizen
I was referring to Sarabyrd's comment about intervention in general. If you look more closely into the Situation in Sierra Leone, you will see private security contractors were involved. The African nation UN forces were irrelevant.

http://www.iss.co.za/static/templates/tmpl...&link_id=30

I know this is shaky ground, condoning the invasion of countries for humanitarian reasons, but to compare this to Iraq would be facile. Anyway, Mugabe is inflicting misery on his own people in Zimbabwe, Ok, as far as we know there aren't atrocities like mass amputations happening, but most of the major news agencies, (including the BBC) are banned from the country, so how do we really know what's going on? Besides, for all we know starvation could be worse than having your arm hacked off with a machete. I would support military (not using private security contractors, but professional soldiers) intervention. It has worked in Africa before, and it could work here as a way of improving the lives of the people of Zimbabwe.
adrian_t
The whole Zim story's becoming increasingly insane. The electoral commision refuses to release the results of an election that took place over a week ago. The MDC claims to have photos of the results hung out (according to a newish electoral law) at every polling station in the country, and claims they won. State run press says there will be a run-off. Meanwhile, Mugabe is urging his so-called war veterans to occupy farms to ensure that whites (as though there were any left in Zim) don't take them back. WTF? How did it come to this?
parnell
QUOTE (FirstCitizen @ Apr 8 2008, 11:46 am) *
Besides, for all we know starvation could be worse than having your arm hacked off with a machete. I would support military (not using private security contractors, but professional soldiers) intervention. It has worked in Africa before, and it could work here as a way of improving the lives of the people of Zimbabwe.

Why? You'd turn Mugabe into a hero , it'd be another case of whitey robbing the natives and it'd end up in shit in any case... no they wanted it like this , they can have it.
adrian_t
@FirstCitizen: You don't go invading countries that are at peace and pose no threat.

To answer your question: we know what's going on there because we can go and see for ourselves, and because plenty of international reporters are there, and because a huge proportion of the Zim population have recently left the country and can give us first hand accounts. While it isn't paradise, it certainly doesn't justify any invasion.

Additionally, any sort of interference would justify Mugabe's anti-European line and strengthen him. In fact, I'd probably join his side and fight against an invasion myself. Keep out of Southern Africa!
coolerking
QUOTE (parnell @ Apr 8 2008, 10:52 am) *
Why ? You'd turn Mugabe into a hero , it'd be another case of whitey robbing the natives and it'd end up in shit in any case... no they wanted it like this , they can have it.

99% of blacks living in zimbabwe did not want it as you put it. mugabe and his cronies want it as they having been lining there pockets for years . first thing to do block access to all there bank accounts abroad . been to zimbabwe 4 times its a great country how can one man destroy it. its a great shame
parnell
@coolerking

what evidence is there to show that they did not want it?

He has served as the head of government in Zimbabwe since 1980, as Prime Minister from 1980 to 1987 and as the first executive President since 1987.[1]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&am...93446361762B216

QUOTE
Zimbabwe's controversial President Robert Mugabe was voted the third-greatest African of all time, topped only by South Africa's Nelson Mandela and former Ghanaian president Kwame Nkrumah, in a survey for New African magazine announced Wednesday.

and not just our friends the Zimbabwens have been at it :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/1...e.andrewmeldrum

QUOTE
The South Africa labour minister, Membathisi Mdladlana, said in Zimbabwe yesterday that his country had a lot to learn from President Robert Mugabe's programme of land reform.

The political opposition in South Africa denounced his remarks as "chilling".

Mr Mdladlana said during a tour of farms that it was "important that black people should also own land that they till, and know how to produce food and be self-sufficient and sustainable".
adrian_t
To be fair, Parnell, those quotes are four years old and things have worsened since then. The evidence that Mugabe is not wanted anymore is the fact that he appears to have been voted out of power. And during his early years in govt, nobody had reason not to support him.
parnell
Ah yes... anymore , a word you'll find missing from coolerking's above post.
adrian_t
Hmmm...

But you can hardly blame people for not being able to see into the future. You (Parnell) make it sound like they shouldn't have supported Mugabe from the beginning.
FirstCitizen
QUOTE (adrian_t @ Apr 8 2008, 11:59 am) *
@FirstCitizen: You don't go invading countries that are at peace and pose no threat.
Keep out of Southern Africa!

So Zimbabwe is at peace? What planet have you been living on for the last 5 years? I am talking about a force that would be large enough to neutralise Mugabe's forces quickly and with the least amount of bloodshed. Lastly (just to be clear), I understand that this kind of solution would not work for all countries.
parnell
No they shouldnt have supported a racist killer , a wildly popular despot who encouraged such racism and looting of those that fed and employed their own. Able to see into the future? What else was going to happen? They stole from and murdered those people , and the West and the PC crowd made sure that no protection was afforded them.
adrian_t
@FirstCitizen: Zimbabwe is at peace and its people are not starving. I'm sorry if that disappoints you.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (adrian_t @ Apr 8 2008, 10:59 am) *
@FirstCitizen: You don't go invading countries that are at peace and pose no threat.

Er Zaire might be surprised to hear you say that

QUOTE (adrian_t @ Apr 8 2008, 10:59 am) *
To answer your question: we know what's going on there because we can go and see for ourselves, and because plenty of international reporters are there, and because a huge proportion of the Zim population have recently left the country and can give us first hand accounts. While it isn't paradise, it certainly doesn't justify any invasion.

Additionally, any sort of interference would justify Mugabe's anti-European line and strengthen him. In fact, I'd probably join his side and fight against an invasion myself. Keep out of Southern Africa!

that being said I do agree with you about this. Quite apart from anything, the UK is the last country in the world that could do anything useful in Zimbabwe and CERTAINLY NOT without South African consent.

QUOTE (coolerking @ Apr 8 2008, 11:00 am) *
first thing to do block access to all there bank accounts abroad .

OG advocated this the other day and I never challenged it. You do know that all Zimbabwean accounts in Europe have been frozen since the last election?
Aschaffenburgboy
The reason why no one cares, its because it is not Nigeria where there is more oil than water. It is sad to watch powerful nations stand idly by, and watch a criminal rule a nation and oppress its people. There is no excuse, Super powers have toppled nations for less bull$$$$ that is happening here, and yet no one really gets involved.
parnell
Nigeria is not ruled by criminals????
Bell the cat
I'm alittle unclear parnell, are you saying that Nigeria IS ruled by criminals? If so, that just underlines how absurdly out of touch you are with African affairs.
adrian_t
Yeah, and I'm still wondering how you expect people to not support leaders on grounds of their future mistakes, Parnell. Mugabe was a fairly respectable leader for many years.
parnell
@ BTC

Just stop now.But you won't. You prefer epic ignorance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Nigeria

QUOTE
Abacha Administration

The death of the general Sani Abacha revealed the global nature of graft. French investigations of bribes paid to government officials to ease the award of a gas plant construction in Nigeria revealed the global level of official graft in the country. The investigations led to the freezing of accounts containing about $100 million United States dollars.[14]

* In 2000, two years after his death, a Swiss banking commission report indicted Swiss banks for failing to follow compliance process in allowing family and friends of Abacha access to accounts and depositing amounts totaling $600 million US dollars into the accounts. The same year, a total of more than $1 billion US dollars were found in various accounts throughout Europe.[15]

[edit] Public institutions perceived as corrupt

The following list contains the institutions perceived as the most corrupt. It is culled from the Nigeria Survey and Corruption Survey Study, Final Report (June 2003) Institute for Development Research, Ahmadu Bello University, Zaria (IDR, ABU Zaria)[16]
Nigeria (as of 2003) Rating Institution
1 Nigerian Police
2 Political Parties
3 National and State Assemblies
4 Local and Municipal Governments
5 Federal and State Executive Councils
6 Traffic police and FRSC
7 PHCN

Oh... but you'll say that's a while ago now...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7162719.stm

QUOTE
Nigeria corruption tsar sidelined [img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40969000/jpg/_40969617_efcc203.jpg[/img] Nuhu Ribadu was promoted in April The head of Nigeria's anti-corruption unit has reportedly been ordered to go on year-long study leave, in an apparent attempt to sideline him.

On the 07 elections:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6582979.stm

QUOTE
In a statement, they also said there were credible reports indicating at least 200 were killed - including voters, police and candidates - in both the state and national elections.

The head of the European Union monitoring team, Max van den Berg, told the BBC it was one of the worst elections that the EU had observed.

Pretty comprehensive there .
adrian_t
Corruption isn't considered criminal in Nigeria. Even the police do it. You should know better, Parnell.
parnell
@ adrian_t

I should know better ???

What kind of Mongo are you? They have fucking laws against it or are you claiming now they don't ?
adrian_t
Sorry, I promise never to attempt humour again.
parnell
Fair enough , do u know where I can get some good potatoes in this town? All I can get is this soapy muck .
Pas
So it looks like they've missed the little bit of democracy where you release the results. Cunning plan this , I wonder if Schröders advising Mugabe on how to deal with a result not going your way.
James_Runner
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Mar 31 2008, 2:02 pm) *
hmm, the issue for the South African government is that Zimbabwe under Mugabe sheltered and supported the ANC for years when the rest of the world ignored the plight of South Africa. Mugabe has played on this debt of honour to manipulate the South Africans.

Excellent point! I think it's great that African countries try to do something about a problem in their region, even if in this case it may be that not much can be done.

It seems that Mugabe is trying to borrow from the playbook of Musharraf in Pakistan: heightening fears of civil disorder in an effort to delay (what we hope will be) the inevitable. The opposition in Zimbabwe seem to be playing with skill the hand they have been dealt: resist Mugabe but not to the point where Mugabe could claim a civil crisis and for that reason cling to power.
Bell the cat
@parnell

Abacha died in 1998. He was a military dictator. Since then Nigeria has returned to democracy and there have been three successive emocatically elected presidents including the present incumbent, Umaru Yar'Adua

Are you really saying that evidence of the orruption of a military dictator is evidence that Nigeria is currently ruled by criminals?
Bell the cat
QUOTE (James_Runner @ Apr 12 2008, 7:39 am) *
Excellent point! I think it's great that African countries try to do something about a problem in their region, even if in this case it may be that not much can be done.

It seems that Mugabe is trying to borrow from the playbook of Musharraf in Pakistan: heightening fears of civil disorder in an effort to delay (what we hope will be) the inevitable. The opposition in Zimbabwe seem to be playing with skill the hand they have been dealt: resist Mugabe but not to the point where Mugabe could claim a civil crisis and for that reason cling to power.

beieve me, Mugabe (although e was an excellent prime minster and president in the early years) is now very much worse than Musharraff ever was or is.
Schotte
Mugabe makes me want to claw my eyes out and steal zimmer frames from old people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7353929.stm

Audio clip here of his witterings on todays "independence day". Refreshing that he has to speak English though. Fucking cunt.
Owain Glyndwr
Ordinary South Africans today put their Government to shame. While the silence of South Africa's President, Thebo Umbeki, has been deafening, South Africa's Trade Unions have taken a stand against Mugabi.

A 47 Tonne shipment of small arms destined for Zimbabwe (and supplied by the world's leader in respecting human rights, CHINA) was due to be unloaded from the ship in a South African port. The union has banned its members from handling the shipment, thereby stranding the ship off shore. The shipment was full of AK47s, grenades, mortar bombs etc. But since Zimbabwe is not at war these can only be destined for one use: against Zimbabwe's own citizens.

Finally someone with the balls to take a stand!

Oh, and I just watched Uncle Bob being driven to make his speech claiming British conspiracies in brand spanking new stretch S-class Mercedes. I wonder how he has the money to buy such luxuries when his people are starving.
adrian_t
Mbeki's a joke, and unfortunately, not a very good one. After meeting with Mugabe, he said that there was no crisis in Zim. Now Tsvangirai has said Mbeki should be replaced as mediator in the Zim crisis. Thankfully, he will not be president in South Africa for much longer.
Pas
So the boat sage continues. So the justice minister doesn't understand what the problem is..

Lastest from the international terrorist organisation known as the BBC
fairlady
I am so relieved that this shipment did not get to Zimbabwe. Thank God the African leaders got together for a change and stood firm. I hope that Monster Mugabe is beginning to get the message. As for the Chinese who support him, hope they are humiliated as well, the last thing we need is China helping run (down) Africa.
Bell the cat
I'm just waiting for Conquistador to come on to this thread to claim that all the Brits on this thread criticising Mugabe are quite obviously raving anti-African racists, imperial apologists and supporters of slavery.

After all, it would be consistent with his line on our comments about Israel ...
Bell the cat
QUOTE (fairlady @ Apr 22 2008, 9:16 pm) *
I am so relieved that this shipment did not get to Zimbabwe. Thank God the African leaders got together for a change and stood firm.

far from 'standing firm' - all the evidence suggests that Mbeki did not give a toss about this shipment and it was trade unions and not the government that stopped it.

QUOTE (fairlady @ Apr 22 2008, 9:16 pm) *
I hope that Monster Mugabe is beginning to get the message. As for the Chinese who support him, hope they are humiliated as well, the last thing we need is China helping run (down) Africa.

China has been doing this for a while. Who do you think supplied weapons to Somalia and more recently the Sudanese over Darfur? And no, they do not seem to feel any shame whatsoever for it.
adrian_t
BtC, Mbeki is being increasingly isolated for his stance on the matter. He's become a bit of a lame duck anyway. Jacob Zuma, new leader of the ANC, has come out in criticism of the situation. And it sounds like the ship won't be allowed to unload its cargo in other Southern African ports now.

Anyway, I guess it's just a symbolic victory. I'm sure the Zim army still has plenty ammo, even without those supplies.
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