Nine-year-old girl dies in a Munich climbing hall

I don't know why she died. Neither do you. Just saying that when you learn to climb, it gets drilled into you about trying to minimise any risk and that safety comes first.
EDIT: at least it did when I was learning back in the UK many moons ago.

But people are not asking why. People are theorizing and inventing scenarios and rushing to conclusions. We don't know what happened here, but already people are screaming murder and freeing up jail space for the father and the gym owner. The asking of questions and the finding out of facts is something for the police to do, and once we're presented with a more reliable account of what happened, we can then start tying the nooses.

EDIT:

See this is what I mean. How do you know, Deetz, that she wasn't way into climbing and had not already gone several times?

Now you're claiming you know all that I know - even more nonsense.

Funny Genie, I saw nothing of the sort. I saw theorizing from both sides (including from you) but nothing definitive and certainly no calls of murder or jail time. Am I reading a different thread than you?

So you DO know how and why she died? Care to share your knowledge? Or are you just being facetious.

Hello! This is TT, more fun to jump to conclusions, get some discussion going.
Nobody said they want the father arrested or the manager of the place, people are questioning, how this can happen. Would be the same, if a child died at a hockey game by getting hit with a puck from the ice.
lighten up!

Let's see:





Tacitly assuming, of course, there wasn't any.

I understand and that's why the sentence before that quote said "I don't know how much experience this girl had." Just expressing how I would deal with my kids but parents can do whatever they want.

Yeah I am theorizing because it's the circumstances are tragic but also strange.

Quotetastic!

Because if you're 15 or 16 and have a freak accident with the harness and fall 18 meters, you'll be OK?

Right so where are the calls of murder and jail time?

Might I remind you, you did some theorizing of your own.

Now you're assuming it was a freak accident.

I was speaking figuratively. When someone says there were people responsible for this and that the death of the girl was avoidable, usually this means the responsible person shouldn't get away with it.

Why she died is easy: She fell from a great height. The theorizing is about why she fell. I have shared the facts obtainable from the newspaper that I read daily and tend to trust regarding background information but I do not claim that they encompass the complete facts. And any punishment doled out by a judge, if at all, will never be worse than the knowledge that a child died under your supervision, be it the friend's father or the hall owner.

No, but I do believe you have a much better understanding of the risks you are getting yourself into at that age. Personally (WARNING not everyone in the world may have been the same as me) I felt rather invincible when I was under 10 years old or so.

And if the girl was a regular climber, at least she went out doing what she loved. Lots of speculation etc, but if there was little to be done to stop this, I'd rather die doing something I love then leave the climbing hall and get run over by a bus.

Because she was not longer attached to anything and gravity did its thing.

So we're all sorted now.

Right but you've done the exact same thing you chastise the others for by assuming that no one's at fault and it was an accident. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't you don't know but it's just as dangerous to assume no fault as it is to assume fault.

As I said before what's important here is that we can question.

Sarabyrd, I was talking to Battalion Boy, who was clearly being facetious. Not you.

hmm, well I'd still be inclined to assume innocent until proven guilty, which is why this is my starting point, but that's just me.

How about not assuming either innocence or guilt until the facts are known? The worst way to investigate an accident or crime is with a theory because you will always look for clues supporting it whilst overlooking those contradicting it. Find out what happened and why, then begin the reconstruction. Once you have how you can start looking for who.

I didn't make my comments with a view to the father OF THE FRIEND needing to be punished. My concern is prevention of these accidents in the future.

Please tell us then, what safety measures you think should be taken that were not already taken in this case, and how any of them would have prevented this incident.

Not enough, it seems. In the first fatal case I mentioned at the Campo Arena the boy somehow managed to unclip *both* of his carabiners without anyone noticing. His 'supervisor' was a poorly trained student on a work experience program. At the time of the accident he had his back turned and was chatting with someone else. If that's what you call supervision, then fine.

No, this is what I call negligence and would be happy to string the twat from his testicles at the same height his victim fell from for a day before letting him drop. But since we know squat about the case at hand, we cannot tacitly assume there wasn't enough supervision in this case just because there wasn't in another.

I've climbed some gyms in Canada and some gyms here in Munich and there is a world of difference between them in terms of approach to safety. In the gyms in Canada, you have to prove to the staff that you know what you're doing, some top-ropes are already set up with Grigris already set on the rope, the ropes are set so that the rope runs through an anchor from the floor and not from the belayer's harness, etc.. Here in the Munich gyms, you and your partner are on your own. You have to set up your own ropes, check your own knots with your partner, choose your method of belay device. And there isn't anyone from the gym walking around to supervise. Mind you, some other climbers aren't shy about telling you if you're doing something wrong (which is good if it's done in a nice way).

That being said, I'll voice my support for the way things work in Germany. It encourages people to watch out for themselves and think for themselves. I find that if a person isn't being supervised, they tend to assess the risks more carefully - asking themselves if they really have the skills and knowledge to do something or go somewhere, and really being careful with stuff like checking harnesses, tying knots, checking slack and clipping ropes into biners.

IMO indoor climbing is one of the safest sports in the world. Even for kids if an adult who knows how to belay properly is belaying. And belaying kids is relatively easy considering that some of them are so light that the belayer could haul them up the wall if he wanted to. With kids, the safety all comes down to the adults knowing what to do with clipping carabiners (for a top-rope, the kid doesn't even touch a carabiner), ensuring all knots are tied right and harness bits done up properly and having solid gear. The standards of the gym's walls and holds are the only things the climbers/belayers can't control. In this case, at least one of those factors had a flaw. My heart goes out to the girl and her family.

Sure, it's the Abendzeitung, but still:


...It wasn't a material failure, according to preliminary police investigations. Specialists of the Alpine unit from Rosenheim investigated the gym on Wednesday - they found nothing. The operator at Heaven's Gate, Andreas Feile, also maitained: "no hooks, rope or harness were damaged". Further examinations are aimed to conclusively clarify these questions.

Still no final word, but it seems like all reports say no material failure. Still I guess we should wait for the final police report to be sure, I'm sure they're going to check through all the equipment.

One suggestion of mine is not to let young kids climb above a certain height. Lower than 18 meters (almost 60 feet).

Where would you set the bar? You can break your neck with a fall from 6'.

You can break a leg on the bunny slope too, but does that mean you should send little kids skiing down black diamond slopes?

The guy securing her has not been interviewed yet, citing health reasons and an unwillingness to say anything (Süddeutsche Zeitung, 28 March 2008, no link).

Ruthie, that doesn't answer the question though.

True but there is a massive difference between the skill sets needed to perform the tasks of skiing and climbing. I've given introductions to novices in both.

Can't believe the number of armchair climbers on this thread.

With young kids they should be wearing a full chest harness, be tied in directly to the rope, belayed properly and be supervised at all times. Probably indoors wearing a helmet too. If that's done it doesn't matter what height they are above the deck. Equipment failure - c'mon, when was the last time a rope broke or twin bolt anchors failed, particularly with a light 9 year attached?

From looking at the traffic in climbing walls these days, and the number of novices climbing unchecked, then I am surprised events like this don't happen more often. Climbing wall operators should be more active in their policing/checking that customers are being safe. Also for the safety of by-standers/belayers who are on the ground. No brainer.

I am truly sorry that this girl has died. What pains me is that it's entirely preventable.

take it one step further back to basics and start them boldering first it's even safer... And teach that it's not hieght that is fun (unless you're training stamina) but difficulty.

Rest I agree with. When I first starded climbing Taufkirchen was just the concrete outside bit. Which is still in my opinon a wonderfull fun wall. It also has a specificly sloped part for beginners. Grazed knees are the worst you can get there.

Bannock, how does that make me an armchair climber? There are other countries, as stated earlier in this thread, where kids under 18 are indeed kept under a certain height.

Otherwise, I agree with your and with gideon's last posts.

For reasons I have mentioned above the height doesn't matter and any climber of experience knows this.

Are you saying it's okay to fall on your head onto a concrete floor from <18m?

That's what I mean. In times such as these it's easy for "armchair" climbers to jump on the safety band wagon and come up with some blanket rules, but are they really addressing the true issue/causes?

Ruthie has already stated that she's an experienced climber herself so hardly an "armchair" climber.

I'm not sure I'd define myself as "experienced", but thanks, ER.

I would like to add that I think if you have an indoor climbing wall, you might as well put something on top of the concrete which would break a fall from a low height better. Of COURSE falling on a mat from 3 meters is going to be less dangerous than falling on a concrete floor from 17 meters. Or do you disagree?

This is the internet, there's no place for modesty here, everyone's an expert.

Having been a somewhat regular practitioner of climbing for most of the last 15 years across all disciplines (bouldering, sport/trad rock, ice, alpine rock and ice, dozens of kletterhalles), mostly in Canuckland and then for the past 4 years over here I thought I would add my cent...

I am very interested to know how this accident happened, and I hope the analysis will come out soon. Assuming the reports thus far are correct and there was no material failure then I expect it's one of the following in descending order of likelihood (all human error btw):
- belay failure; belay improperly set-up and/or belayer lost control of the rope
- climber's tie-in knot failed; improperly tied, or if indeed a carabiner was used to connect the rope to the climber's harness (which btw should NEVER EVER be used for 50 different reasons) then improperly clipped and locked
- climber improperly tied into harness (kids harnesses are notoriously difficult to connect properly)

Climbing is a serious sport and I strongly believe that it should always be viewed as such. The penalty for even simple errors can be death. Accidents are rare because most participants are rational; a healthy fear of death motivates good safety habits, provided they are known and understood in the first place. Climbing is for people who can accept the consequences of their actions and behave accordingly. This requires a certain level of maturity that kids barely have in their teens, let alone childhood. Therefore kids are at the mercy of their adult supervisors who themselves must be knowledgeable, safe and rational.

Having climbed a lot of kletterhalles in NA and Europe I have to admit I find the safety practices (or lack thereof) here in Europe a bit too cavalier on the safety front for my liking. In Europe I have never been tested by any hall on the basics - how to tie into a rope, and how to safely belay. If I was a kletterhalle operator, I would want to know that my customers are safe or at least capable of exercising safe practices for the sake of others. Aside from the health of the falling climber, accidents in halls are traumatic for witnesses, bad for business, and gives a bad reputation to the sport in general.

As an example, two weeks ago I took my colleague's 4 year old child for her first climbing experience at the KZ in Thalkirchen (which has, btw an excellent beginners'/childrens' climbing wall). I was not questioned on my safety practices nor ability to teach, nor was there a staff member there to regularly check on us. On the other hand, at most halls in North America there are normally plenty of waiver forms to fill out and you must take a basic lesson and be safety checked before you can climb on your own. The waiver thing is ridiculous, but the lesson and safety test ensures that all participants in the halls have at least the minimum safety margin. My experience in Europe is that beginners are not obligated to seek instruction and are not tested on safety and hence, many lack basic fundamental safety skills that I see too often in the halls. One day before this accident, while I was being lowered from a climb at KZ, I remember looking around and thinking: I'm surprised that accidents don't happen more often here. Sadly I don't expect the recent accidents will change the situation.

As an experienced climber I appreciate the sense of personal freedom here in Europe, however, I think that for the overall health of the sport and participants, halls could introduce some measures to reinforce good safety practices.

Regarding some earlier comments:
- Nets in a climbing hall? Never seen/heard of this and I've climbed in dozens of halls in NA and Europe. Nets are for fire departments and circuses.
- Setting a height limit for kids or anyone doesn't make sense - people can be injured/die from falling 3 metres or 30 metres. Besides, there are no height limits when climbing outdoors on real rock.

The only solution is to know how to climb safely, and do it... my condolences to the girl, and to her parents.

To be acurate she said she's hung of a rope in Utah. I've climbed in Utah and its just awesome sandstone, but I only lead off on 6+ routes.
I've also absailed of one of the biggest arches, but to be honest you didn't need any experience to do that, well apart from being able to use an abseil-achter.
Both could be technicaly thought of as hanging off a rope, but require different experience levels.

I can leap over tall buildings.

And I can turn wine into water.

I SIT in a tall building.

I'm not saying I'm that experienced of a climber I guess but I still disagree. Yes a fall from 2m can be deadly, but I think the probability it's a fatal or near fatal accident at a certain point.


One of the best most succinct posts in this thread.

And now from reading it I'd definitely say whoa European halls should get their shit together just a wee bit more. No one wants to see people suing left and right but there's just some fundamental basics. I think the analogy someone used earlier of just plopping a new skier at the top of a black diamond run could apply in some cases.

Hey Pranaman,
In defence of at least some of the climbing walls in Europe, the 3 biggies in London (Mile End, The Castle and Westway) all make you fill in shedloads of paperwork and prove that you know the basics before they let you anywhere near a wall.

Fair enough - I've never climbed in England. I've climbed in halls in France, Germany, Austria and Spain so perhaps I was being too liberal with my terminology when I said European. I just didn't want to single out Deutschland as I've seen similar lack of safety precautions outside of DE.

BTW when did England become a part of Europe? I can't wait til they join schengen and get the euro

In the halls that I have been to, I have always had to sign a piece of paper stating that I knew basic climbing and belaying techniques,
that I knew what I was doing and that I was responsible for my own safety.
I think the attitude that you are responsible for your own actions in climbing is more prevalent here because of the proximity of the
Alps. Anybody can drive to the Alps and get themselves killed there. Not teaching people to take care of their own security in the
halls by holding their hand will help nobody.

As far as material failure is concerned: I think it is impossible that the rope or the hook failed, they have always held me with my
2m/100kg, they cannot break under the weight of a 9yr old girl. She must have been incorrectly attached to the rope or she slipped
out of harness, or the belayer lost control of the rope (less probable).

BTW, http://www.kletternmachtspass.de/arc/080325/gedanken has some thoughts about the accident from the owners of the hall.

Simple language but you feel their helpless horror in every sentence. I can't even try to translate it or I'll break down and cry.

Interesting to follow the link to the "anecdote" they published there:


Loose translation:

A belayer (SIE) gets told off by one of the other climbers in the hall for belaying with the rope pointing up, and blows her top off at the poor thing who was basically trying to save her climbing partner's life. She replies with "You super-climbers always come up and pisses someone off with your remarks and your know-betters".

Imagine if they had to do this to every person that enters the hall...