Nine-year-old girl dies in a Munich climbing hall

Süddeutsche Zeitung: Mädchen stürzt in den Tod

Does anybody know which hall?

Sympathies to the family, I do though wonder what the heck went wrong.

I do personally hope the PC health and safety hippies dont ban climbing for 9 year olds though.

It was in Ramersdorf.

Plod report

It was the appropriately named Heavens Gate.

There was a similar story just a couple of months ago. There are obviously gaps in the safety of these climbing walls.

Too sad for words.

ff

Thanks guys. I hated Heavens Gate anyway.

Ruthie, climbing is statisticly safer than soccer, though for the general non-climbing public it has an aura of "danger". It's also a sport which educates safety as the primary concern.

I doubt there was anything wrong with the hall, but according to the police report the girl was fastened with carabiner and belt. If she was "laddering" up the wall, as kids and learners tend to do, she may well have loosened the twist lock on the carabiner. I personaly dont put a child on a carabiner but tie the rope directly onto the belt. My heart goes out to the guy.

Funny, gideon, I haven't heard of kids dying in soccer accidents so often in that age group in Germany in the last couple of months, and I would venture a guess that many more kids play soccer than go climbing.

One of my good friends from highschool decided to try it out at Minnesota State University Mankato...they had a big set-up for introducing people to rock climbing.

The rope snapped on him and he broke his hip. I'd rather have a few scrapes from a normal sport than a broken hip (or death), thanks.

(though I do love repelling...*sigh*)

First off, my condolences to the family concerned.
Secondly, I'm with RoSPA on this one:


One of the inescapable things about life is that it is finite.
For all of us.

I would venture at a guess you dont really know what your talking about. I know tons of kids who climb. Have you ever climbed?

A lot of times at gyms/on the rock, the instructor teaches others how to belay (steer & secure the rope at the bottom) but don't always pay attention to how much slack is left in the rope. This happened once while I was out climbing for "team building" with my MBA class somewhere in Austria. Aside from the instructor and one professor, I was the only one with rock climbing and belaying experience. As part of the learning to trust exercises (scary), students had to belay their climbing colleagues. Even though everyone was giving their climber their full attention, there were many times when the belayer couldn't keep up with the climber. When that happens, the slack gets long enough that one could easily slip and fall a few meters. It was making me very nervous.. I took charge a couple of times, telling the climber to stop in his track so that the belayer could catch up. SO dangerous!

I don't know if that's what happened here, as an 18-meter fall would require A LOT of slack, but hopefully there was an instructor/experienced climber paying attention to her.. 18 meters up is very high for a 9-year-old! So sad. But, as gideon said, rock climbers put A LOT of attention on safety.. I don't know how many times I've been warned not to step on the rope..

Bullshit. The only gaps here are in your knowledge of the case.

I suppose Genie's sentiment applies to all of us - we don't have the full information. People die every day in freak accidents, look at the woman who died when a stingray flopped onto her head as she was sun-bathing. Does that mean that sun-bathing on a cruise boat should be banned?
I feel sorry for the whole family, this is a terrible accident and may have consequences but we can't be judge and jury.

I find that very interesting coming from you sarabyrd.. just thinking back to your sentiments in the Eisbach thread..

That was an accident as well, per definitionem, albeit not a freak one. But it could have been avoided. See the thread because I'm not going down that road again.

To be fair to SB, the Eisbach is bloody dangerous. Climbing isn't but has a tendency to go seriously tits up if something goes wrong. This is probably only the second or third third serious accident in Munich in the 15 years I've been here.

So are you saying that there are more "tons of kids" climbing than playing soccer?

One doesn't have to climb to know that one of the most popular sports for kids is soccer - can be played almost anywhere with only a ball required - almost zero cost.

Whereas climbing requires location and equipment (Cost), which would pretty much rule out its possibility of outnumbering soccer players.

Let’s not let emotion cloud reason. What we really need is the % of fatalities for each activity given for a specified number of participants.

Anybody have this number? I'm sure an actuary for the insurance company does. Do you think they charge more for soccer players or climbers?

Danger is a relative term. It's also my middle name.

Agreed. Shit happens, some things are dangerous but people do them anyways because if we lock ourselves out of anything dangerous, we're going to have a miserably boring life. The way to deal with danger is not abstinence, but safety. If the failings in this case were following the safety rules (very unlikely metinx), for which I assume the adult accompanying the kids was responsible for, I think due punishment is, well, due. If it was a material failure, it either boils down to bad luck (e.g. rope scraped on the way up) or negligence of either the adult (e.g. rope has taken a fall and must therefore have been discarded, metalware dropped or stepped on), or the hall (faulty securities on the walls). In the former case you have only to feel for the family and the other kid that was with them, in the latter - there's an address and measures should be sought.

Until we know better, I suggest we all STFU with the blamestorming.

Did I say that? No, I just simply corrected someone's wrongful impression that climbing is a dangerous sport. Statisticly more people are injured playing football. It's the tackling bit. Ruins knees and ankles and stops people from playing and or walking properly or even running in future life. Most climbing injuries are bänderrisse on the fingers or other related hand injuries. It very very rarely happens that a belay goes wrong. To make it out that this sort of thing happens all the time is so untrue, reactionary and very ignorant of the sport, it's participation numbers and safety ethos and practice.

To end my participation all I can say is what I've always been taught by my climbing teachers.

"An increased sense of saftey leads to decreased sense of risk".

For the UK, such stats are compiled by RoSPA (PDF, especially page 14) in the UK, which also does some work in Australia & Estonia too.
Will have to admit now that RoSPA is one of my dream employers* and I'm a great admirer of their work.

*but the pay is crap, hence...

We used to go climbing quite a bit as kids. Always a mate holding the rope at the bottom, only a few adults about keeping an eye on things. Once you are told how to feed the rope through to stop your mate falling it's hardly seems that dangerous. We also used to wrap rope around a fence post, tie one end around our legs and hold the other end and abseil off a cliff. The most awesome fun ever and way more dangerous than proper climbing. If all the cool fun stuff was banned life wouldn't be worth hanging around for.


Seems like the more professional climbers should of known their students would need more time to keep up with them and paid more attention to what was going on. Stupid people rather than the sport being dangerous there.

It should be, however, noted that cabbagefairy is a NZer and therefore has a different concept of safety...

As I'm on a stats trip today, here's what kills Kiwis (PDF).

Pffffff Safety Schmafty

Any more news on how it happened exactly?

18m must have been from way up in the Silos somewhere - did she flip over and slip out the harness or something?

Was never really convinced about the safety, as in bolted security, at HG and even for experienced climbers it's an intimidating place to climb. If you're at the top of a silo you can't communicate really with your belayer, you're on your own up at the top.

I am from Utah. So, yes, I have hung by a rope over the edge of a cliff.

And to all those saying people sould be allowed to take risks for fun and are responsible for the possibly fatal results: the kid was 9!!!

If you are going to offer a place of entertainment which has potentially fatal consequences if an accident occurs, you had better DAMN well be sure to take lots of safety precautions. As someone else has pointed out, there was obviously a mistake made somewhere, a grave one (no pun intended).

I think what gideon is saying about soccer and climbing is kind of like the danger of driving cars as opposed to flying in an airplane. Of course you are more likely to get into an accident driving in a car (or playing soccer) -- but the chances of fatality when you are involved in an airplane crash (or climbing accident) are much higher due to the nature of the CONTEXT of the activity.

I have an uncle who loves all kinds of water sports, and took my cousins with him even when they were tiny. Some would say that that was dangerous. My uncle always made sure there were plenty of lifejackets around, wouldn´t let anyone on a boat without one, and was very tedious about regular safety checks.

I am sure most people involved with climbing are responsible about it like my uncle is about sailing -- but in this case someone was not careful -- either in instructing the child, watching her, checking the equipment, etc-

The guy that runs the place was on the radio this evening and he said that this is the first accident they have had in 10 years of the place being opened. He also said that there was no equipment failure, but he would say that I suppose, his job could be on the line, if not worse. This could have serious consequences for a lot of places. My village school has just built a climbing wall in the sports hall, as far as I know it has yet to be used, but I can imagine there could be some serious problems to come for them.

Absolutely. There have been *three* accidents of this nature since October 2007 at the Hochseilgärten in the Campo Arena near Hannover - an 11 yr old boy died in November in hospital after falling from a great height and two others, an 11 yr old boy and a 9 yr old girl were injured (one very seriously) in January and February of this year. After the first fatal accident owners of the place said they felt no need to put up safety nets. I don't know if they have done so now. Several employees (some of them apparently teenagers on work experience programs) were suspended and there has been talk of Aufsichts- und Sorgfaltspflichten and Verdacht der fahrlässigen Körperverletzung, which is totally understandable. These are little kids we're talking about, they need proper supervision

sad news. i was in there once with a friend. we paid and climbed. no one asked if we knew what we were doing. no one checked if we were following proper safety regs. i would not have let my friend climb without checking her harness and knots and she didnt let me climb without doing the same. everytime we switched. if we had had any doubts whatsoever about what we were doing, we would have asked. people in there are very approachable and we were given tips and warnings while we were in there.

of course, it is still possible for a joe punter to walk in there and rent a harness and a rope, climb up 30m only for his self invented knot to fall apart. in my mind youve only yourself to blame.

never a good day when a child dies.

You're right berny, it's a sad thing, but HG have shloads of warnings and safety instructions on the walls, and if you're a grown up human being, the staff there assumes you are a grown up human being and do not need explanations about how climbing 30m on a wall might be unsafe if you don't know how to tie yourself and your partner doesn't know how to belay you. Crossing the road is mighty dangerous, yet nobody suggests safety nets to pop up in front of pedestrian crossings or safety officers standing in front of each one of those and delivering safety instructions to people who want to cross.

Kids do dangerous things too. They're fun, so they do them, and as a non-parent I can pretty much appreciate what it means when a kid wants to climb rocks, ski, ride a bike, surf, skateboard, cross the street to meet his buddies, you know, all that dangerous stuff. You can't tell her to stay at home. You might think you can, but I wouldn't want to be that kid, and frankly, I'd rather have my kid take slight safety risks (how many people climb walls and don't fall to their deaths?) than be locked up at home doing "safe things" because her parents are hysterical nut-jobs who think the best way to grow a kid successfully is to chain him to the TV or something, because nobody died of that particular activity yet.

Yes, accidents happen, and if I'd have a kid go climb walls, I'd be really really sure the brat is doing everything possible to prevent that happening. And if I find out she's not doing it, sure, then I'd chain her to the bedpost for a week, or flog her, or lock her in the basement or the fridge or one of those things good parents do to their kids. I think the majority of parents would do the same (ok maybe not in the fridge), so since I know sweet FA about the what happened there yesterday, I can only assume that parent belongs to that majority and did those things to assure the kid's safety. Assuming, as Ruthie here does, that someone was negligent without knowing the details of what happened there is hysterical nonsense. It's like assuming every time someone is responsible for a car accident, he was drunk.

The father of the dead girl's friend had been securing her when she slipped and fell. At first, the rope did catch but then she plummeted to the ground. Expert police from Rosenheim, all of them climbers, are examining the scene and the material used as well as questioning witnesses. Most of these witnesses are under PTSD so it might be a while until clear statements can be obtained.
The hall owner is devastated. He did not witness the accident but was involved in the first aid attempts, holding the drip and watching the girl bleed to death (his words). The hall will probably be open again today, according to the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
He does not admit to negligence, specifically pointing out that the management does not ask if their paying customers are experienced climbers, same as the cashier at a swimming pool does not ascertain that their customers can swim. He also says that slipping is a common incident and happens 120 times a day, never leading to a serious accident until now.
The girl was secured by a toprope which leads from the climber through a ring at the top of the wall to the belayer and is connected to his harness (if I understand the article correctly, it mentions that both climber and belayer are wearing a harness but does not mention the rope being fastened to the belayer).
Being a mother myself I can only begin to imagine how the man securing poor Sandra is feeling for being involved in the death of a child under his supervision. Yeah, it's the parent thing all over again, but incidents like this one grip you in a different way once you've tended to children of your own.

good up until the last sentence, but I guess lets not go there

I would say of course it was because that is standard. The belayer must wear a harness and be fastened to the rope with carabiners and other belay devices.. he wouldn't just be standing on the ground holding the rope.. that is far too dangerous. Many of the devices are configured with the rope so that the belayer barely has to pinch the rope in order to secure it. As gideon had mentioned, I'd also assume that the rope slipped not from the father's hands but out of one of the carabiners

I still don't understand how this is physically possible, unless the girl fell out of the harness.

If the knot she used to tie in with was wrong then it's easily possible.

I used to do lots of indoor climbing 4-5 years ago and I'm pretty shocked how this could happen.

The gym I hung out at all beginners/people new were forced to use Grigri's which were secured to the floor with ropes. It's is a belay device who's "main characteristic is a clutch that self-locks under a shock load. Belayers using a Grigri need to pay full attention to their climber and exercise skillful operation to ensure safety."

I believe you had to prove you weren't an idiot and had experience or take a 1-2 hour belaying or lead climbing course before you could use an ATC or another device.


Also finally it's been a while... but I've never heard of anyone climbing and being secured with only carabiner. I don't really thing they are in anyway engineered to be the sole device securing you. Although I could imagine some twisted shady gym without any decent non lazy staff thinking it's okay, because gee little kids cannot possibly figure out how to tie in.

One last question what's the floor like at this heavens gate? My fav gym it was about a half meter of shredded rubber tire everywhere and a thin layer of carpet.

Really though I cannot believe especially in Germany that they would let adults also just have at belaying without closely watching to see if people are being safe.

Link to pictures of the hall

Deetz, I've always climbed with just a HMS Schraubkarabiner connected to my front loop on my belt. Quiet common here, but it remains secure and usualy can‘t open like speed clicks pairs. I also dont use a grigri or an eight for belaying as the HMS carabiner gives me ultimate control and locks like hell if properly used. Both are common practice here and taught as basics as is the ability to tie a "achter" knot in it's various forms (sorry all my climbing vocab is German)

The only problem with a HMS is if you are rubbing up a wall it may unwind. Which is why I prefer a rope connection.

I also find that very strange that they wouldn't ask about the climber's experience..


If they're comparing it to a swimming pool, do they have staff walking around, securing that the harnesses and ropes are fastened? Kind of like Lifeguards??

Whenever I climb I thread the rope through both the carabiner and the belt. Actually I've never seen anyone securing only with the carabiner.


Last time I was there, they had padded mats down. About 2-3" thick. Certainly not thick enough to prevent injury when falling from 20 meters. I almost broke my ankle falling about half a meter.

That's more than they have at the wall in Thalkirchen though. Just bare floor there.

EDIT: It's been a while since I was at either hall, so they may have changed.

Shit thing to say.

From their Rules and Regulations, so I would suppose they have staff patrolling the floor and keeping an eye on novices.

18 meters that is like 6 to 7 stories high. Looking at the photos of the hall then I guess the young girl was up that square tube like tower. Could easily have some catch nets at intervals up there. I guess they want to have the experience more real. Definitely a preventable waste of life.

Yeah I believe we used and taught the figure 8 loop knot etc. But so do you tie the knot on your carabiner and then clip the carabiner to you loop thingy or whatever on your harness? At an indoor gym they have new people and they are clipping so they move quickly from route to route I could easily see someone getting excited and forgetting to screw the carabiner locked. But I hope I'm just misunderstanding

And yeah once you have gone a few times and are series about it why not belay with something that's not a grigri, but for casual people it's dead simple, pull the slack and pay attention to the climber.

The pictures of the gym and actually thinking about the height put things in better perspective for me. I had stuck in my mind that it was somehow like 20 feet and not close to 20 meters. What's about the standard length climbing rope 20m or so letting you climb a 10m route without a problem?

I was on a climbing "team" at my home gym way back when and it was probably only 8 meters high, but one guy was leading before and someone was distracted and he "decked" I think the term was, basically fell with only the friction of the rope. There probably was some resistance but my mind is foggy, but luckily he landed on his feet and walked away pissed off but okay.

Also I was like a sport climber, but I traveled around to different gyms, went on different trips outdoors and I don't think I even once was climbing at a height of 18-20m, but I could be wrong...

I'll be very interested to hear what the cause was, but when you let people climb that high it is a pretty big liability. Especially in that silo as it looks like you'd probably hit the narrow walls on your way down.

Exactly! You do not let beginners climb without a Grigri. I checked out the climbing hall and it seems that she was climbing up the silo wall. I first thought that the accident could have happened maybe because she was doing cliff-hanging stuff up there 18 meters high cause most halls have horizontal walls after a certain height. However that wall does not have a horizontal slant. Now that I have seen the wall, I think the reasons for the accident can be:
1) improper belaying- only secured by a carabiner
2) her harness snapped (and this happens pretty frequently among climbers)

I don't know, something is strange here. Why would a father let such a little child climb such a high wall?

Where I go climbing, children below 15 years only climb up to couple of meters and not 18 meters and that with professional instructors.

Yeah it's shit that this happened, but people saying that they should have nets up? Never heard of or seen that before. Sounds like a knee-jerky dumbass non-climber thing. Next it'll be that climbing halls should be closed and 'won't somebody think of the children'. Sure climbing can be risky if you don't take care, but that's why you take care and manage the risk. I know my kids will be down the climbing wall as soon as they're big enough to be roped up, but then again I'm not one of those folks who thinks kids belong in cotton wool inside bubble wrap.

Yep. Screw it tight and a half turn back so it doesn't jam.

It's not ok to question the circumstances when a fatality has occurred? C'mon someone has died it's not only normal but also a good thing that people want to ask why. It's very possible that it was a freak accident and no one was negligent but then it's also possible that someone was, either way it's important to ask questions and determine if anything needs to be done to avoid the same thing happening again.

Common sense really.

Are you saying that this girl died because they didn't take care or manage the risk. This sounds like nonsense to me.

I agree with Eleanor Rigby. I don't know how much experience this girl had. But unless my kids were way into climbing, had gone several times etc I wouldn't let them barrel up 18m high.

In some ways I hope it was a freak accident with the harness, because if it was some kind of fault of the belayer or lack of training from the gym that will be very sad.

Parents should be there to also help manage the risk for their kids. But if parents are unsure of the dangers, owners of such places should setup policies to yes say unless you are over 15 or 16 you can't climb over 5m or 10m or whatever they feel comfortable with.