A Fulda drugstore is not allowed to sell condoms - Germany

2) What should his punishment be?
Since the offences you charge him with - although I've never heard of a charge called "moving some paedos around" then the full extent of the US law.

Surely concealing evidence and perverting the course of justice would come into play in Laws case if he was charged?

It's good that we have a wonderful moral compass like leky on the board to throw stones at other glasshouses.

Crimen solicitationis is indicative of a worldwide policy of absolute secrecy and control of all cases of sexual abuse by the clergy.

But what you really have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.

Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims. The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.

Reporting for Panorama, Colm O'Gorman finds seven priests with child abuse allegations made against them living in and around the Vatican City.

IF you don't profess to be moral then who are you to judge others morals ? Great logic there.

@thefirelane

They do in a sense have a punishment - de-frocking - it's not much of a punishment in the trad sense - basically "you can't be part of our club anymore" sort of thing.

Bear in mind what I quoted yesterday - the Church paid for these guys to go to psychologists - then when the shrinks said (well the wiki article said "only") the priests were safe around kids - did they let them loose again. Now you could argue that Cardinal Law relied on the professional opinion of the so-called experts in which case professional malpractice is in question , or you can argue - well you are - that he was still negligent and these guys should have been locked up etc etc... either way your argument about recidivism doesnt hold up - least not if that wiki article is true.

They do in a sense have a punishment - de-frocking - it's not much of a punishment in the trad sense - basically "you can't be part of our club anymore" sort of thing.

So the church paid for their priests to get treatment, but didn't feel they should report them to the police, seems that they are holding themselves to a different law...

Jesus fucking Christ, wake up - Crimen solicitationis? Never heard of it?

More from the BBC

The original Crimen solicitationis PDF here

More:

Article

Not only was Cardinal Law not defrocked, he was also given the honour of leading one of the masses celebrating John Paul II memory.

Come on - you can't possibly justify that.

Put yourself in his position , 70-80s , bunch of old guys seem to have a thing for kids , WTF ??? .

No - accepted logic at the time should have been. "This guy's committed a serious criminal offence. Call the authorities and see what they do".

On May 22nd, 1967, the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which among other things banned homosexuals, as constitutional. This ban remained in effect until 1991 [3].

In 1972, a Tacoma teacher of 12 years with a perfect record was terminated after a high school student outed him to the principal. On October 3, 1977, the Supreme Court refused to hear the case on appeal. While this is not an official judgement on the merit of the case, it did uphold a lower court's ruling that becoming a "known homosexual" automatically impaired his efficiency as a teacher which used various methods to support this claim: 1. Defined homosexuality based on the New Catholic Encyclopedia which deemed the act as implicitly immoral; 2. An "immoral" person could not be trusted to instruct students as his presence would be inherently disruptive. Justice Charles Horowitz based the Court's conclusion of Gaylord v. Tacoma School District No. 10 solely on the testimony of one student, three teachers and administration who objected to a known homosexual teaching at the school because it "would create problems" from the presence of such faculty. This landmark case is significant as it was the first homosexual discrimination case decision to be aired on national network news. In fact, it was simultaneously aired on all three national evening news networks totaling approximately 60 million viewers.^{[13][14][15][16][17]}

On June 30, 1986, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Bowers v. Hardwick, that homosexual citizens had no constitutional right to privacy.

On May 20, 1996, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Romer v. Evans against an amendment to the Colorado state constitution that would have prevented any city, town or county in the state from taking any legislative, executive, or judicial action to protect homosexual citizens from discrimination on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with kiddy fiddling.

You might as well have given us a date rape story.

Not quite as black and white as you want to make it seem.

God's word is absolute and if you don't follow it, you're going to hell. That's what the church wants you to believe - there's no advising there.

Serious criminal offence ? You mean like homosexuality?

In contrast, social mores within the Catholic church at present seem to regard a homosexual as far far morally worse than the trivial matter of raping children. That may not in fact be the case

In Europe and North America, even when homosexuality was illegal, it was never regarded as a serious criminal offence if there was no violence and consent involved. The same cannot be said for the rape of childern which even in the Dark Ages was regarded as pretty much the most serious sexual offence of them all.

Except, it would appear,´by the Roman Catholic hierarchy

Thanks for the clarification on the other point,Parnell, but I now need to ask about your comment to Hazza that he ought to educate himself re: "Homosexuality has nothing to do with kiddy fiddling", which begs the question Do you disagree?

Tell that to Oscar Wilde.

Also Greece.

You are funny.

@ Hazza
You did? Ok then. Explain this:

There was more to the quote than you included. I suggested that perhaps Hazza shouldn't post so much out of his ass - he is clearly (very if you check the very long Mother Teresa thread) anti-Catholic to the point of illogic.

I think he should have been de-frocked , but I can understand why he was not. Put yourself in his position , 70-80s , bunch of old guys seem to have a thing for kids , WTF??? Accepted logic at the time was guys might have had a screw lose - send em to shrinks and see what they say , they are the expersts after all. Experts say "they're cured" , experts wrong , whose fault is that? I don't hear you (or anyone else) crowing about psychologists being 100% responsible (thefirelane's words) for these guys re-offences.

the Roman Catholic Church also screens out gay ordinands and bans any gay man from becoming a priest but appears to have no visible strategy in place to screen out child abusing men:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=39700

why then parnell do you seem to miss the very obvious double standards here?

Tell that to Oscar Wilde.

Also Greece.

who was sent to prison for two years, which even at that time was considered to be a grossly excesive sentence for the 'crime' concerned. If Lord Alfred Douglas had been a 10 year old by contrast Wilde would have hanged.

I'm not sure I understand what the double standards here are. Surely there is a distinction between gentlemen of a homosexual nature who refuse to apologise for being gay and child abusing men who hold positions in the priesthood who apologise for their actions (often repeatedly over a number of years ).

The screening procedure is intended to identify ALL homosexual men who are considered "intrinsically disordered"

Good stuff , defending paedophiles now eh ? Coming full circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_wilde

Though Wilde's sexual orientation has variously been considered bisexual, homosexual, and paederastic, Wilde himself felt he belonged to a culture of male love inspired by the Greek paederastic tradition.^[9] In describing his own sexual identity, Wilde used the term Socratic.^[10] He may have had significant sexual relationships with (in chronological order) Frank Miles, Constance Lloyd (his wife), Robert Baldwin Ross, and Lord Alfred Douglas ("Bosie"). Wilde also had numerous sexual encounters with working-class male youths, who were often rent boys.

How on earth do you NOT see the double standard in that?

eh? The laws relating to homosexuality did not in any way mean that child abuse was overlooked as trivial by the police.

In contrast, social mores within the Catholic church at present seem to regard a homosexual as far far morally worse than the trivial matter of raping children. That may not in fact be the case, but the actions of the church over both these matters certainly seem to imply that: several catholic priests who publicly came out as gay were indeed defrocked and deprived of clerical pensions in recent years - something the church has failed to dop even to the most brutally paedophile priests.

and, anticipating parnell's demand for evidence, here are the links to priests in recent years who have been defrocked for being gay despite having committed no crimes whatsoever:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02042008/news/..._out_550023.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-3402724.html

the Roman Catholic Church also screens out gay ordinands and bans any gay man from becoming a priest but appears to have no visible strategy in place to screen out child abusing men:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=39700

why then parnell do you seem to miss the very obvious double standards here?

The Rev. Michael Moynihan's suspension as a cleric late last week comes a year after he resigned as the beloved pastor of a ritzy Connecticut parish amid a financial scandal there.

And it came after his Bridgeport [Conn.] Diocese bosses - who earlier caught Moynihan lying about the existence of secret bank accounts at his former parish - learned that the dapper, white-haired cleric misled them about living with a man in Midtown...

He resigned as St. Michael's pastor in January 2007, much to the dismay of many parishioners, after a probe found he had spent more than $500,000 in church funds from two secret bank accounts he had set up without being able to properly document the expenditures.

A CATHOLIC priest has been defrocked after he placed a personal ad complete with a naked photo of himself on a gay website.

Fr Francis Gera, 64, was removed from his duties as pastor of Holy Dormition Byzantine Catholic Church in Ormond Beach, Florida.

Church bosses sacked him after learning he posted obscene pictures of himself on a website which ...

The text, which was approved by Pope Benedict at the end of August, says that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder which detracts from their ability to serve as ministers.

Priests who have already been ordained, if they suffer from homosexual impulses, are strongly urged to renew their dedication to chastity, and a manner of life appropriate to the priesthood.

The Instruction does not represent a change in Church teaching or policy. Catholic leaders have consistently taught that homosexual men should not be ordained to the priesthood. Pope John XXIII approved a formal policy to that effect, which still remains in effect. However, during the 1970s and 1980s, that policy was widely ignored, particularly in North America.

The death rate of priests from AIDS is at least four times that of the general population, the newspaper said.

The priest-artist deplored the fact, not that his fellow Jesuits engaged in homosexual relations, but that they did not take "safe-sex" precautions even after the facts about HIV transmission became known. In this case, four of seven priests in a discrete sample are known to have been actively homosexual. What can we extrapolate from this data about the remaining three men, or about the American priesthood in general? Ten years ago the liberal National Catholic Reporter cited this example as typical: Father Smith (not his real name) is a Jesuit priest working in a Philadelphia parish in one of the older parts of the city. He is a closeted gay priest and does not want his name used. ... "In my worst moments," he said, "I fear I will have been a collaborator in supporting an institution that oppresses gay people..." He said he became a Jesuit after falling in love with an older, 40-year old Jesuit priest. Smith was 20 then and studying at St. Joseph's College in Philadelphia. "As a Catholic priest, I know there would be no church without gay people. ... I assume priests are gay until proven otherwise."

@ Hazza

Convicted child molesters are not de-frocked ?

Put the words "child molester de-frocked" into a search engine. How ignorant can one person be ?

First link ...for example:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy453.html