A Fulda drugstore is not allowed to sell condoms - Germany

For sure, you could probably easily write a list as long as your arm where religion has worked against society etc... Ye olde "single most common reason for war" thing springs to mind. I'm just trying to stay perky and upbeat and still see the up-side of Religion despite the Schlecker thing.

A bit of religion here and maybe a bit of compulsory military service there, bring back "finishing schools" (yay!) for learning the finer points of decorum etc... I'm pretty sure that whole English ASBO culture is coming about because of lacks elsewhere.

exept that it these are indeed the logical outcomes were their hairbrained theories of 'morality' to be pursued by governments worldwide as they appear to wish.

They will not and are not coming out fully against all of medicine
This is only the logical outcome of your hairbrained logic.
You see, with this language we are not going far.

don't get me wrong I *know* this is how the vast majority of Catholics worldwide practice their religion and I have absolutely no bone to pick with oridinary Catholics. In fact I have in my time campaigned against sectarianism in my home country.

However, I take very great exception to the current 'higher-ups' and what appears to be their current insidious agenda on the world stage. Keith O'Brien in Scotland used to be a moderate but under Pope Ratzinger he seems to have turned into a swivvel-eyed loon making absurd and extreme pronouncements from his throne. On issues from the islamic world, to birth control, HIV prevention, women's rights and scientific advancement it feels that in recent years the Vatican has actually been winding back the clock. And when that is paired with the worlds of islam, judaism and hinduism doing similar it should give liberals the world over profound jitters.

You don't need to go all the way to El Salvador for crazy anti-woman laws against abortion.

Step up once again my own dear homeland. Ireland. 2nd highest GDP per capita in the world (if you ask the IMF). 7 universities for a population of 4 million. 2nd longest continuous democracy in Europe... but despite it all, the people haven't quite gotten around to the notion of putting free thinking to much use yet when it comes to challenging the wackier side of Roman Catholicism.

Abortion isn't just illegal, but was written into the constitution in the 80s, and subject to no less than two different referenda since (both failed incidentally) to make it EVEN more illegal, just in case the Irish supreme court try a Rode v Wade.

Fortunately, most Irish women can go to Britain for the services, but for at-risk and socially excluded groups that's not always so straightforward.

Divorce was illegal until 1995 (the Church sent Mother Teresa over to Ireland to campaign against the referendum to change the law, but the people passed it by 50.5% in favour).

Homosexuality illegal until 1992 (thanks to the European Court of Human Rights).

Secular education... you're joking right? Sex education... ah now... down with that sort of thing. 90% of schools are Catholic schools, and much of rest belong to other religions. The Irish government, naturally, pays for it all, full time religion teachers and all, and kindly allows the church to fire teachers who are seen to be not living a Catholic lifestyle (I know one principal who was fired for converting to Protestantism so as to remarry after a divorce).

In 2002, the Minister for Education (on his last day in office) quietly signed away 1 billion euro worth of liability on behalf of Catholic Church for all the child sex abuse they had been complicit in for decades previously. Public scandal?... not a hope! It barely made the headlines.

can you get an abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy? Laws against that move past any sense of rationality or human decency in my book.

if they believe that morally dubious experimentation and genetic manipulation are sinful and if they campaign against them with the vigour they seem to be in the UK, the outcome will indeed be a full on attack on modern medicine. That is why every medical charity in the UK is up in arms about it. I find it incomprehensible that you still don't get this.

I am inclined to be generous though and consider the fact that Catholic teaching and pronouncements on these matters have just not been thought through and that senior Catholics are way out of depth on it. I really do sincerely hope that is the case but if it is, it is a very sorry indictment of this superstitious cult don't you think?

I don't know the legal specifics of an ectopic pregnancy to be honest, but all abortion is illegal in Ireland unless the mother's life is in danger.

I guess that second bit is open to legal interpretation e.g. in 1992 a 14 year old suicidal teenage rape victim wanted to travel to Britain to have an abortion, put the government took out a court injunction to stop her. The surpreme court ruled very controversially 3-2 in favour of letting her have the abortion, under the belief her life was in danger if she was not allowed. In the end she miscarried.

So this legal right arising from this case theroetically exists, but no government legislated to put into practice (they just ignored the supreme court basically), so it doesn't exist in practice. The Irish doctors association is notoriously Catholic and further makes it difficult.

I remember in my university there was a free healthcare clinic for students. Three doctors worked there. Two out of the three would refuse to prescribe the morning-after pill for "moral reasons" even though it was perfectly legal. That's the kind of place Ireland is.

Women in practice travel to Britain for abortions. A lot of them, every year. A horrid thing to have to do. Crisis pregnancy is a stressful enough thing to having to be dealing with, without having to go away from your families and friends in secret shame to another country.

Needless the say the government also throws funding at various Catholic-run organisations who target women in crisis pregnancies supposedly offering "support services" but with a very very clear agenda to stop them getting abortions.

I think you are finally starting to moderate your unsustainable position. They are attacking something they think are questionable medicine practices, they are not coming out fully against all of medicine. What you find incomprehensible? Oppose them with facts, because if you oppose them with lies and exaggerations your own facts will start loosing credibility.

As a failed "in vitro" rural Irish Catholic priest, might I point out that most of you are talking absolute shite.
I would ask you, in God's name, to think a little before you post.

I have already stated that all licensed medicines in Europe could be seen to fall foul of 'morally dubious experimentation' and all biologicals (now the majority of newly approved medicines and medicines in research in Europe) would fall foul of proscription of "genetic manipulation". I grant you doctors could probably prescribe untested herbal "renedies" or carry out nonanesthetised surgery in a world controlled by this Catholic orthodoxy but pharmacotherapy it would appear is no longer compatible with church teaching if the hierarchy is to be believed.

Mr Blackitt: Look at them, bloody Catholics. Filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed.

Mrs Blackitt: What are we dear?

Mr Blackitt: Protestant, and fiercely proud of it...

Mrs Blackitt: Why do they have so many children...?

Mr Blackitt: Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby.

Mrs Blackitt: But it's the same with us, Harry.

Mr Blackitt: What d'you mean...?

Mrs Blackitt: Well I mean we've got two children and we've had sexual intercourse twice.

Mr Blackitt: That's not the point... We *could* have it any time we wanted.

Mrs Blackitt: Really?

Mr Blackitt: Oh yes. And, what's more, because we don't believe in all that Papist claptrap we can take precautions.

Mrs Blackitt: What, you mean lock the door...?

Mr Blackitt: No no, I mean, because we are members of the Protestant Reformed Church which successfully challenged the autocratic power of the Papacy in the mid-sixteenth century, we can wear little rubber devices to prevent issue.

Mrs Blackitt: What do you mean?

Mr Blackitt: I could, if I wanted, have sexual intercourse with you...

Mrs Blackitt: Oh, yes... Harry...

Mr Blackitt: And by wearing a rubber sheath over my old feller I could ensure that when I came off... you would not be impregnated.

Mrs Blackitt: Ooh!

Mr Blackitt: That's what being a Protestant's all about. That's why it's the church for me. That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual and the individual's right to decide for him or herself. … But they... [He points at the stream of children still pouring past the house.]... they cannot. Because their church never made the great leap out of the Middle Ages, and the domination of alien episcopal supremacy!

Modern medical research is focussed very much on stem-cell research and genetic research (cloning). The church opposes both of these. This is where the future of medicine lies, and they are thus attacking the very direction that cutting edge medical research is taking.

That's already an exaggeration, but you went beyond that, you wanted us to believe the church is coming out fully against all of medicine, which I consider a blatant lie if it is coming from an educated source as you claim to be. Even more, the article you linked to stated the church is opposed to the creation of animal-human hybrid embryos for research.

If you jump from that to "the church is coming out fully against all of medicine" I cry bad faith.

I concede that if that ban succeeds, for bad or good, that would cut off a new branch in medicine evolution. To claim it will kill the tree is well... PR you need for your own business interest.

I am glad we agree.

Sinderbox, if the church is against "genetic manipulation" it must by definition be against ALL biotechnology. Do you concede that at least?

I don't know. I am not a church expert not a genetic expert, I am not involved nor belong to either group. But as far as I understand, the church opposes certain type genetic manipulation, and not all of what might be considered so. Am I wrong?

That used to be the case, yes. But to the alarm of many in the UK scientific community that appears to be changing and the leaders of the church bringing about that change have not demonstrated that they understand the first thing about what they are dealing with.

If the church really wants to ban genetic manipulation it would have to proscribe all biotech products as I have described above. But even if it were to just ban all genetic manipulation of human material that would still make gené therapy, stem cells, siRNA and many vaccines or antibody therapies sinful too. This would mean a vast number of treatments for disorders as diverse as rare genetic disorders, cystic fibrosis, alzheimers, Parkinsons, spinal chord injury, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, Huntingtons, supranuclear palsy, heart disease, IBS, cancers of all types, HIV, Herpes, smallpox, TB, Hep B or influenza would be out of bounds for Catholics.

That could be debated, but "vast" it is definitely not "coming against all of medicine", which was my point, no need to lie or exaggerate.

I was neither lieing or exaggerating and given that you are neither a Catholic nor a scientist and appear to be ignorant of both your frankly absurd pompous jockying for the higher ground reflects very poorly on you.

The logical conclusion even of the more limited definition of 'genetic manipulation' as being the manipulation of foetal or opther human genetic tissue would entail a full on attack on modern medicine as it is today. And with stem celll lines rapidly moving in to being used for ADME Tox and in vitro investigation for ALL drugs, diagnostics and devices in developement for therapeutic purposes it is frankly difficult to see how under the new hardline Catholic antiscience position, any orthodox Catholic foillowing church teaching could in conscience undergo any form of pharmacotherapy in the future. The stakes really are that high and the sooner these absurd witchdoctors in the Vatican realise that and back down the better.

Ad hominem, that would rather reflect very poorly on you.

You need also some English help:

1) "Not an expert in biotechnology" is not equal to "not a scientist"
2) "Not an expert" is not equal to "ignorant" (again exaggerating)
3) "Vast" is not equal to "all"

Since you started with "all" (which I questioned) and then moved to "vast" you are now joining me in the idea that your original statements were wrong.

Furthermore, you have failed to show the church opposes all types of genetic manipulation. You even failed to prove all medicines are genetically manipulated. Any ignorant can see it.

FFS You won't last long on this site dear

To summarise :

BTC hates Catholics.

Personal comment:
BTC's pulled a ton of flounces on TT and is without doubt a fantastist of the daftest order but still feels compelled to suggest that others "won't last long on this site".

Sinderbox despite not being a Catholic just called the guy on his bullshit. Respect to that.

Against such eloquent and brilliant argument I am speechless. Your wisdom overwhelmed me. I concede defeat.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't see where BTC stated anything as fact, he appeared to ask a question, note the use of the question mark, seems to me sinder that you are twisting things a wee bit. And in the listing of the new sins they have clearly added Genetic Manipulation, it doesn't say "some forms" of genetic manipulation.

In addition here are the new sins:

Environmental pollution
Genetic manipulation
Accumulating excessive wealth
Inflicting poverty
Drug trafficking and consumption
Morally debatable experiments
Violation of fundamental rights of human nature

QUOTE

As half my family are Catholic, that is not the case in the slightest. I did also point out that I have no beef at all with individual Catholics and my problem is with the current regressive direction being taken by the Catholic hierarchy.

yes you are.
Abstract of what he said:

A implies B
If you ban A, does it mean...

He made a rhetorical question.
He is not asking, he is stating. And he kept stating it in later posts.

thankyou leky, at least someone understands what I have been writing

I'll ask the question again.

Are these Sins from God or are they decided by the Church?

Ah good then you'll be making a full apology for your own post a couple of hours ago.


I note with a fair bit of mirth your defence of Islam on these boards and your continual shriekieng and hysterical criticism of all things Catholic - interspersed with the occassional remark a la "I have some good friends who are Catholic". Your desperation to pin negative points on Catholicism leads you to criticise the Church without ever saying what good they do for the poor , for example. You're not Catholic yourself yet you argue that Sinderbox is ignorant.

To remark that you do not hate Catholics is rather counter to a huge amount of your posts.

OK but what have the Catholics said exactly, pertaining to genetic manipulation? Surely they don't speak like an oracle, give one term "genetic manipulation" and say sin! - surely they give a more detailed explanation of what that means?

I mean, Catholics (for whatever you think about them) are still attempting to base their beliefs in the tenets of Christianity. That means, if you are conducting genetic research (that doesn't violate other rules they've made, like embryo work, etc) for the purpose of healing the sick, is the Catholic church gonna get mad? I mean, in the modern context, you're using the gifts God gave you (bio-Nerdiness) to heal the sick (you know, just like Jesus did...), how is the Catholic church gonna complain, as long as you're not breaking some major ethical/moral principles in the process?

Despite being an archaic, power-seeking interpretation of Christianity, catholics do spend alot of time debating theological / ethical issues before doing something dumb (or possibly good). I would rather deal with thinkers than blind and brainwashed followers, such as the Baptist variety, even if their music is much better.

I see they are against genetic manipulation but when are they gonna come out against genital manipulation. How can one have faith in a Church run by paedophiles and homosexuals.

There might be some stuff here, but I can't view any of it as I'm not allowed to look at sites concerned with religion and ideology Separation of church and state I suppose! Vatican

Have you read any quotes from the new pope? Progressive and a thinker are hardly descriptions.

Baptists may be worse, but arguing that they are more closed minded than the vatican is like saying Stalin killed more people than Hitler - it doesnt excuse much. (About time this got godwined).

Regardless of how loose their interpretation of biotechnology is, these assholes (catholic and baptist) are standing in the way of medical progress that can save millions of lives by their opposition of stem cell research. As a diabetic who stands to improve his health from such technology, I wish multitudes of incurable diseases of anyone who follows this nonsense.

@ lilplatinum

Right here - first link on new pope when googled "quotes from new pope" , well he's hardly new anymore but i'll let that inaccuracy slip :

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articl...19/154255.shtml

Which ones did you have a problem with or were you just talking from your anus?

Of course, the last part about the sex abuse scandals are completely dishonest. The real problem isn't that priests are sexual abusers at a higher percentage than the general population.

The real problem is that the church knew about the abuse, and covered it up, allowing the abusers to find more victims by moving them around.

To this day, people who facilitated the molestation of children sit protected in the Vatican.

You can play number games all you want, but this is a huge moral failing and there is no two ways to parse it.

I dont give a shit about his policies on Homosexuality or Molestation, those issues don't affect me.. But lets not forget that the church shields these scumbags and tries to sweep it under the rug.

""when Sacred Scripture is separated from the living voice of the Church, it falls victims to the disputes among experts." and [the pontiff] "binds himself and the Church in obedience to God's Word, in the face of all attempts to adapt that Word, or water it down""

Yeah, he seems really open to change. God forbid a church fall victim to disputes by experts, better to just tow the line.

"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. ... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and 'swept along by every wind of teaching,' looks like the only attitude acceptable to today's standards.”

i.e. don't listen to crazy new ideas, keep your head in the sand with tradition, we need to keep those collection plates passing.

"'Rock' [music]. . . is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe.”"

Rock musics evil, how modern.

etcetra.

Bottom line he opposes embryonic stem cell research, and wields political authority to try to prevent it, that makes him an enemy

@ lilplatinum

Ok so perhaps you should have been more precise when you said "any quotes from the new pope". Um are you a member of the Church and want to rock out or what is your problem here exactly?

@thefirelane

I read your wiki link , kindly quote the piece equating to "people who facilitated the molestation of children sit protected in the Vatican" , the article refers to one person - Cardinal Law , who is not protected in any sense or are you aware of some divine protection he is privy to? Am thoroughly interested in your insight here.

Yes perhaps I shouldn't have implied that every quote of Ratzinger was batshit regressive, but I don't think its a stretch to claim he is quite regressive. And I've received all the sacraments up to confirmation and haven't been excommunicated that I know of, so I suppose technically I am a lapsed catholic.. My original point was that this church is only slightly less regressive and crazy than southern baptists.

@parnell

Ok, perhaps I was unclear. Bernard Law is protected from prosecution under the US laws which he broke.

But we’ve been down this road before, and I can see it starting now. You turn it into a debate about minutia. (which laws did he break, how is he protected, what percentages of priests…. Blah blah blah)

The fact remains the catholic church, as an organization, willingly facilitated and allowed for the molestation of children in order to try to prevent embarrassment for itself.

I find that to be an unredeemable moral failing, sadly, many do not. I don't see how they can be seen as an authority on any issue of morality when they failed such a basic test.

@ thefirelane

Umm I'm finding this a little difficult to digest :

1. You make an allegation

2. I request specifics as to your allegation namely what protection you speak of.

3. You restate said allegation , make a new one and claim any probing of your initial allegation is "debating about minutia".

In any case well done , it sounds like you rather hope that people believe what you write , without questioning it while you flap your arms saying "nothing to see here, kindly move on"...

EDIT: I could post up a dictionary definition of the word "facilitated" which would demonstrate that you are a liar and a falsifier but since you couldnt even be bothered to back up your argument thus far I rather think that conclusion obvious.

And I said... he is not subject to prosecution under US law while living in the Vatican. A prosecutor from Boston will not be able to, in any practical sense, extradite him from the Vatican, and I seriously doubt they would release him.

All religion is brainwashing. It's disturbing what the human mind is capable of believing.

The problem is that to see something is an illusion you need to step outside and that's increadibly difficult to do when your whole belief system is based on something.

@ thefirelane

Good man , I retract my liar and falsifier allegation and in its place I now consider you to be plainly ridiculous.

There are NUMEROUS cases of extradition warrants being issued against residents of the Vatican which no doubt your ignorance has not made you aware of :

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...750C0A961948260

Here's one in which an extradition warrant was successfully prosecuted for sex abuse against a Catholic priest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm

My belief system is based on reality and perception , how about you , is your "whole belief system" based on nothing?

Well it's not based on religion so freedom of mind and expression.

really. Church teaching, apostolic authority and the Catechism play no part? Call yourself a Catholic?

@ Pas

which are "things" , when last I looked , rendering your argument - see post #143 - useless.

Since I can perceive them , they play a part , but just a part and not the whole as your hate-filled gibberish likes to pretend . Pay attention now.

We only see based on what we have seen before , your reality is only what you have been taught and learned.

Again, to see an illusion you need to be outside of it. You're not.