Opening a padlock barring me from my property

hi, my name is tandori, i posted in january about my exhusband´s affair with his exgirlfriend from 24 years ago... (forgot my password and email address... cannot use my real name because it could cause problems...)

thanks to the help from many people here and in real life, i survived, and now i am almost thankful to this woman who helped us end our marriage! but, it seems my ex is not really that happy...

i had to hire a lawyer because he was not interested to communicate at all, and, he and his friends came harrasing me everyday to make me leave (fumigation, dead animals in kitchen, etc.). i did not mind leaving, but, i needed a bit of time to sort myself and my things out, and also, since he took money away from our account, i practically did not have the money to be able to happily leave even if i wanted to...

and now it is getting real ugly.

i will save you guys from details, but, here is the question:

i am an artist, and had my own atelier. it is in the back of someone´s haus, and the contract is only verbal. the problem may be, my ex has been paying the rent through his private company for tax reasons. i had been paying him cash and he transfered the rent from his company account every month (so the cash he has been saving black). now, he put a padlock on the door so i cannot enter and claim my things. many of the things that are in the atelier i have owned before marriage (many special tools that cannot be replaced), many i bought after marriage through his company (my money, through his company). and there is practically nothing that are his (officially yes, but...).

my lawyer cannot be reached till next week and i am afraid he will transport my things to another place if i wait too long.

does anyone know if it will create a problem if i break the padlock and enter and take my things?

i know i should wait till i talk to my lawyer. but, it is kinda urgent, i have collected these items over many years (including special gifts from artists i admire), and they are priceless...

just for your info., my ex has already used metal cutter to break the bikelock on my bike (cheap and old) to take it away just to make my life difficult...

thanks for your help in advance,

tandori

Almost certainly that's a criminal act - don't do it.

Get an emergency court order granting you access to your belongings and take them out asap. List your belongings, even the ones he paid for, and have a policeman witness the removal. Terminate the lease and inform him that you have done so. Provide him with a replacement padlock and both keys - nothing like heaping ashes on his head.

but it is my atelier...

Legally/officially it does not seem to be. sarabyrd's advice sounds very good.

In somebody else's property. My ex-girlfriend still has one of my T-shirts - can I kick her door down whilst she's out to get it back? No.

if it is real urgent, get a new lawyer and don't waste your time on TT getting involved with people who may or may not know what is the legal and correct thing to do in the circumstances.

hi sara,

thanks for your quick reply! uh, to get an emergency court order, where would i need to go? through my lawyer? (who is really not available that much) or can i do it directly? and, would it cost anything???

and, the ones he paid for (only officially), what would happen if he claims it back?

thanks.

Hausfriedensbruch doesn´t carry the death penalty and is only prosecuted upon complaint ... which I think your ex will most likely shy away from

German Criminal Code - Section 123 Breach of the Peace of the Home (Hausfriedensbruch)

(1) Whoever unlawfully intrudes into the dwelling, business premises or other enclosed property of another, or into closed premises designated for public service or transportation, or whoever remains therein without authorization and does not leave when requested to do so by the authorized person, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than a year or a fine.

(2) The act shall only be prosecuted upon complaint.

Since he has padlocked the door, it can be assumed he will be making a complaint if she enters. And up to a year in jail. Does anyone else think she would be mad breaking in?

You think. But you don't know. So you might want to be careful encouraging someone else to commit a crime.

@KingBilly, yes. Especially as I imagine it could well weaken her case in subsequent divorce proceedings. But I'm not a lawyer, so don't know - Jimbo is though, I believe, so I'd listen to him and err on the side of caution.

Yeah, we don't know what her ex is capable of. Especially if she pisses him off, he might want to do it put of spite. Stick to what sarabyrd said, yes it'll cost money to get an emergency court order. But remember what your ex has been doing isn't completely legal either (buying your equipment through the company to commit tax evasion). He may have no interest in saying these things are his, so I think there is no need to break in.

Highly doubtful ...

1. He´s probably not interested in having his dubious financial transactions discussed in a public court session

2. Even if it isn`t in fact her atelier he could be charged for misappropriation (Unterschlagung):

Section 246 Misappropriation

(1) Whoever unlawfully appropriates moveable property of another for himself or a third person, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine if the act is not subject to more severe punishment under other provisions.

(2) If in cases under subsection (1) the property was entrusted to the perpetrator, then the punishment shall be imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(3) An attempt is punishable.

Besides:

Similar cases happen a thousand times every day and would bring the judicial system to a standstill if they weren´t regularly dismissed according to § 153 StPO (Strafprozeßordnung)

Verfahrenseinstellung wegen Geringfügigkeit

Ach ya maybe right ya maybe wrong Miwild. Who knows.

thanks for all you guys input...

i still dont know what to do...


just one thing my lawyer said to me this week...

if we are going to court to fight for financial support from him to help me get back on my feet for up to a year, i should not disclose any information that will be disadvantageous to him (z.b. drug trafficking, tax evasion, etc.) so, when he files a claim, maybe i would have to stay silent over these matters???

and, emergency court order, anyone has an idea how much it may cost? and where should i go for this?

thanks

Why is it that in threads like this one where someone posts a big crisis problem and then others post suggestions and advice, that the original poster seems to have a problem taking it in and acting upon it? Tis always the same.

I was not saying you should tell them. I was just saying he might not want to prove he is the legal owner of these things by showing a bill that was issued to his company when the objects were clearly not bought for his company.

I have no clue how much it costs, but I would go to a lawyer. If yours is not around go to a different one.

thanks mariposa


i, the original poster, have no problem taking it in. it takes time to actually decide what is the best for the situation from all the advises, and waiting for more suggestions if there were to come. again, i am an indecisive female with problems, but even someone like me is allowed to ask for advice on tt, i hope.

I'm not in a "crisis management" mode tonight so I don't have any nebulous advice to offer. But I'm sure there will not be a drought of crisis managers who will be willing to offer their suggestions.

thanks lavender rain, your advise/suggestion/opinion last time was so right on!

Is this the same person who posted a question a few months back about whether to go to the authorities about the illegal activities of her cheating husband who confessed to her while wanting a divorce?

If yes, you should have gone to the authorities then and if not go ASAP now. Things will only get worse for you if you don't.

The problem is your husband doesn’t fear you and he will push you until you push back. If he was hiding money for tax purposes you could get hit as collateral damage if you don’t come clean with the authorities. You have no idea what other criminal activities he may be involved in.

You got to be kidding! Right? I'm reading the facetiousness between those lines. Btw, why didn't you come back on TT with your last sign in so people could read your other wimpy cry for help.

It's my hunch you simply didn't want people to figure out your scenario is bullshit as it's very similiar to your last thread and a figment of your vivid imagination.

yes, i am the same person.

my lawyer knows about the drug trafficking, but he told me that it is not a good idea to go public if i want any financial support from my ex.

his illegal activities are quite minor, ah, but there are some involving the cityhall... cannot remember the word in english for this...

actually, i was not joking, and there is no need to read between the lines. i really thought what you said (wrote) were quite right on the spot, after 2 months or so.

no, i tried to log in with tandori, but could not remember the pass, or the email address... i usually have another login name, and created tandori because i did not want people to know my real name. i am quite happy for other people to read what i went through in january.

but however you like to take it, it is your choice.

thanks

You need a new lawyer. He sounds like he is in the good old boy club with your husband.

How about a lawyer that demands your stuff and financial support from your husband or you will go public? Now that's a lawyer.

And remember, going public and going to the authorities are not the same.

is this how it is done in germany? see, i live in a provincial city, and, they all know each other... my lawyer does not know my ex, but he knows my ex's lawyer and friends...

This thread should be renamed as " Should Tandoori make a decision?". There is only so much someone can advise you, in the end of the day, it is up to you.

Ive never seen a more convincing argument for the phrase "its not what you know, but WHO you know"

Just keep reading your post above. You'll figure it out.

Do you have proof that money was there before? When my mom took us kids and ran from her second husband, she was on moral high ground and didn´t take money, which he then immediately transferred out of the country and later claimed he never had. Base on this, he never had to pay her alimony.

If it were me (and I am not always known for doing the correct thing) I would go and break in and take the tools. What else do you have to lose? His good will? You don´t have it anyway. Can he prove those things were in the atelier? You own them in the spirit of the law, but not in the letter of the law. Don´t trust the courts to get it right.

Fuck that!

Someone padlocks my entry to my stuff? I'm taking bolt cutters.

As for Lavender Rain, just ignore the neurosis.

I agree with Ruthie and Bluedave. Surely you've just lost your key and need to get your things:-)

If your husband is as you portray him then I don't expect him to come after you using a lawyer... He will probably come after you though... Sounds like you're mixing in company that play by different rules...

If it is a large padlock that cannot be bolt cut or sawn easily then phone one of these unlock service companies they will be around in no time. It is your lock and you have lost the keys - right.

he already has a lawyer...

well, i did not want to portray my ex that way somehow... many self-employed people around him are doing somewhat similar things i hear (maybe not drugdealing though)... and when you have the connection, even the cityhall workers are doing somethings that are quite illegal in a small city like where i live... i think my lawyer does not want to bring this out, but when i have the details regarding his work with the cityhall... maybe he will think twice about reporting the missing articles (that are not his)?

thanks for all your input.

i think i will wait till monday to talk with my lawyer. i have no clue how long ago he put the padlock there (could be yesterday, or already been a few weeks) so whatever is gone monday probably is already gone by now, so it would not hurt to wait a few more days, i hope. if he is not available then, i go ahead and break in (because i lost my key) and take what is mine.

if any of you have more suggestions though, i would still really appreciate them...

thanks

I'm not absolutely sure this would be a good idea from all possible outcomes if/when your case went to court but if you are in doubt about your actions then take photos of what you found, what you did and what you took which, should it come to a fight, would provide you with some proof of your actions. The point to be careful about is if these photos could ever be used against you as proof that you stole something, or committed another illegal act, so at the very least keep their existance secret until you are sure their use will benefit you.

Good luck.

Man alive - troll or not, the course of action is clear - do NOT break into somebody's house, no matter what. The chances of this actually strengthening your claim are virtually nil. And drug trafficking? Puh-lease. Sling that into a divorce case as merely anecdotal evidence and be ready to be laughed out of the Court. Sit tight, let the lawyers handle it. QED.

Jimbo has a point -- if your partner has done something bad and you don't bring it up until the divorce, people (and the court) won't believe you. Once again, same thing happened with my mom and my ex-stepdad. Though what he did was far worse than drug trafficking.

Oh, and reading the first post again, if tandori was using her money through somebody else's company to dodge VAT (I presume that was the reason), it's not just the company committing tax fraud, in fact I'd say the original poster has just as much to worry about on that score.

Ah, but ist it?

On the one hand. if there is no written contract and no witnesses to confirm a verbal contract, the law will tend to favour the guy paying the rent. You will have to prove that you have any right to enter the property and that the objects belong to you. Although sarabyds advice is almost certainly ths only "right" way to do things, it is by no means certain that the courts will believe you and let you into the property unless you can provide reciepts for the stuff in the atelier and also receipts for the rent you claim to have been paying.

While it would certainly be legally questionable to cut through the padlock and replace it, if the situation is as vague as you say it is then its not at all certain that you would actually be committing tresspass. If you (and I wouldnt want to advocate this in a public forum, so this is just a hypothetical thought game) removed the padlock, entered the property, removed your items and replaced the padlock, it would then become your husbands problem to prove you had acted illegally. Theoretically, if he caught you doing it, he could call the police and they would be able to stop you, but they would be unlikely to do so unless he can convince them that the situation is absolutely clear. As he is unlikely to be able to do that they would also be powerless.

As the saying goes - Sometimes its better/easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

andy M

"Somebodys" house? Certainly not. A property you have been paying rent for, however unclear the actual rental agreement máy be? More difficult to say and not as clear cut as you suggest.


If she then regains posession of her property and there is no likelihood of her husband being able to prove that the possesions werent hers, then there is no claim. It starts getting nasty when he claims he had left an envelope with 10000 Euros on the table that is now not there. He still has to prove he even had 10000 Euros but things could get sticky.

On the divorce? certainly.

andy M

I just want to address this. You would have to go to your Amtsgericht. You can do this yourself, but:
a. you would have to convince the judge that it's urgent and that you can't wait for a proper court ruling and
b. the stuff would be turned over to a gerichtsvollzieher or sequester until the court can decide in a proper trial if the stuff is actually yours

I agree with pog451. Yes doing that would be illegal. The ex-husband carting her stuff away would also be illegal. But the police have bigger fish to fry, and will not help her get her stuff back if ex-hubby removes the stuff, and will not do anything to her if she gets there first.

Sometimes its better/easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission

Amen to that MAM.

Not with a divorce hearing coming up - act in haste, repent at your leisure. I know it sucks, but let's not forget that it would appear that she's a party to tax fraud. I really really really wouldn't advise uping the ante any further unless you're damn sure you have a cast iron case, or you'll shoot yourself in the foot.

And in answer to pog:


Somebody's Haus? My ex has been paying. I transferred cash to dodge the taxman.

Yeah. I'd bring that up in Court. The judge will understand. Course he will.

Jesus.

How about adding your own padlock / chain in order to stop the ex nicking your stuff?

Just a thought

Haha - yeah, that I like. And then do HIM when he cuts it open.