Culture shock for Germans when visiting Australia

Hi all,

(Sorry for the length of this guys,...only just realised it may be a wee bit long )

I only recently returned from a trip home to Oz ... glorious 5 weeks of sunning it and hanging out with family and friends. My husband is German, but lived in Australia back in 2005 so he has some experience with the Australian culture and ways of life - plus he married me so he's generally quite comfortable around our crazy ways of doing things. Anyway ... during the first week back home a couple of German friends from Bavaria stayed with us in Melbourne. They planned to stay in Melbourne for a few days and then head off down the Great Ocean Road to explore some of the coast line for a few weeks. I was excited about them experiencing my home town and also about them meeting my family and friends.

On day three of their visit to Melbourne we head out for a lovely 'dinner with a view' down Southbank. But, by the time we had placed out orders our friends had begun voicing anger and frustration about being asked 'How are you?' when ever they entered a store, and absolute disgust and fury at total strangers wanting to make conversation (whether it be by the person serving them in a store or someone sitting next to them on a park bench). By the time our meals had arrived, Australians were understood and labelled as 'superficial' and 'insincere'. I tried to take on my role or 'social interpreter' but I was cut off and angrily told 'That is superficial, it's not real, you're not real. No you're not!' (to be honest I'm still not sure whether they meant 'you' as in me, or 'you' as in the plural form - 'you Australians') I found it sad and frustrating that the very thing about Australia that I was excited about them experiencing had infuriated them. I hadn't seen that coming. Maybe I should have after living 2 and a half years in Munich, but I didn't. I made a few more attempts to help and explain that some people genuinely try and make conversation simply because they like to talk, and when they ask you where your from and how you like Australia they are genuinely interested in what you might say (well,...most of them are anyway). But it didn't work. They seemed to become even more angry that I would defend this 'insincere' and 'superficial' behaviour. In the end I was basically told that I wouldn't, and couldn't possibly understand true and real sincerity in the form that they were talking about - "Why,...because I'm Australian?!" (what the!!) Actually, at that point I felt really angry and I basically poured myself a huge glass of white and stopped talking about it right there and then.

I've since been thinking about this and have wondered why this group of people haven't had the same intense reactions when they travelled to other countries. One of them has travelled across nearly every continent, and the other two have seen nearly all of Europe. Never have I seen or heard this reaction from them about other places, and so I'm a little worried about why /how it had been so quick to develop, and so intensely, in Melbourne.

Do you think it comes down to a difference in understanding of when, where and with whom friendliness/ warmth is applied to an interaction. My husband tried to explain it to me like this,... "why would I want to talk with someone serving me in a shop or sitting next to me in a restaurant. I don't know them. I talk with family and friends because we have a relationship. I do that with them because the relationship is real." He also tried to explain to our friends that people in Australia might not necessarily want to discuss their deepest thoughts and feelings with someone they've just met, but that they might consider and enjoy a light chat with a stranger,...but I don't think that helped very much. Not everyone in Australia will stop you for a chat, which is partly why this reaction surprised me. I mean it wouldn't have been every person that they met who would have tried to start a conversation,...but it can and does happen. And well,...I like it when it does,...I've missed it,...and it was so good to be able to do it without fear or confusion for 5 weeks. The problem now is that I'm in a group of friends who have let me know that I don't know what real sincerity is, which I translate to mean that I'm not sincere.

Has anyone got some advise or thoughts they might offer? Should I let it go, or should I try and work this misunderstanding out? Remember these people aren't going anywhere, and nor am I. I married their best friend, and he married me. In all honesty I'm a little scared of having another conversation about it simply because of how the last one turned out. I think I understand the differences which are at play here, it's just that I feel really yuck after all of it.

Mel

Bloody hell, talk about overreacting!! Honestly, it seems to me like they need a good kick somewhere.

In Ireland, things are fairly similar, maybe not as "extreme" as that, but people do and will talk to you. It doesnt mean they want to be your new best friend or share their lives, its just an acknowledgement of "you are here, I am here, lets exchange a few pleasantries". Wheres the problem? I dont do it here as much, as its just not the culture but when in Rome...

I would let it go if I were you, for they clearly dont understand and you will just be more and more frustrated in trying to "apologise" for being Australian...

Ouch, that sounds like a nasty experience. You must have felt pretty miserable sitting at that dinner table.

I think it's a little sad that they didn't just accept that culture is different everywhere you go. For instance, I find the "you have a nice day now!" in New York a little insincere, especially since it can be often said in a tone of voice which obviously does not wish me to"have a nice day!" Does it bother me to the point of complaining about it bitterly? Absolutely not. I think of it as part of the culture and accept it as so. They way Germans that I've never met like to wish Guten Tag on the street. Or some people always say "how are you?" and are not really interested in the answer.

Do you let it go? If by letting it go, do you have to pretend not to be their idea of insincere? If so, then I wouldn't let it go. Why should you have to pretend to agree with someone...that you don't agree with. Easier said than done, but maybe you could try not to let it get to you. Accept that they're are going to be close-minded about this and try not to let yourself get upset by their comments. They're probably not personal at all but that's hard to see when you're sitting opposite them at a dinner table.

Let it go but don't take the ignorant bastards anywhere else that doesn't serve pork and has a waiter/tress scowling at you or ignoring you.

Have they been to America? Have a nice day

They were looking for something to complain about, and found fodder in the shallowest of topics.

You should have asked them why perfect strangers give gods greetings to them in Bayern and then express the desire to see them again when they leave.

Fuck em!

and tell em to jam their form of sincerity up their collective ass.

So true!

it may well be 'insincere' but who cares - it can be nice to hear a positive attitude once in a while

just as the checkout people in germany wishing me a nice weekend or nice evening couldnt really care less probably if I dropped dead minutes after leaving the shop - thats not the point

Sometimes the concept of warmth and friendliness is simply not understood here in Germany.
That's why people are made to feel welcome in Oz but in Germany if oyu go into your average shop / restaurant you feel like you have to apologise for even being there.

Forget about the clowns...Send them to India where we smile,grin, greet and try to strike up a conversation with anyone... I think Oz is one of the best places to visit ...especially because of the people...

And I've heard the 'we dont have a relation, so we are not going to mix' argument before and drives me nuts...how in the world can you make friends in the first place, if you dont talk...reeks of some old world networking, introduction based mentality...With such a mentality, nothing's gonna open up their minds wherever they go... And to think one of the best travel ad lines I heard in recent times was the german equivalent of 'Do men make a journey or does journey make men' or something like that...

I'd was going to ask if they'd been to New Zealand...

You know something, after 10 years of Germany being in Australia and New Zealand for 10 weeks recently made me realise that yes, I do like people being insincere. Hell, I'm bloody insincere myself. To the bone.
If being that kind of insincere is wrong, I don't want to be sincere. Ever.
That's part of my make-up and yes, I know what is coming... I no longer* get upset at the often lack of bitte and danke, but will it stop me saying those words? Hell no.

If such things are your core values, they probably won't change. Same for your Germanic pals.
And they may not see any issue.
When I got back, I was kinda I hope I never (more than once, more than twice) about it. So I spoke to the former Herr Indoors (an old pal, ex-boyfriend and protector of my plants while I was away).
"The people were so lovely, so friendly and warm, wanted to chat, it was so nice."
"Oh but Germans are nice."
I could only stare. He never understood in the 5 years we were together and he still doesn't.

It is different.
Look at the flipside: if having to be grateful for any crumbs of friendliness tossed your way makes a person sincere, do you want to be?
Never apologise for being you. Never, ever, ever.
Be your friendly self. You might just have to adjust to a different reaction to what you are used to. Good luck!

*slight exaggeration

Yeah, it wasn't fun sitting at the table. I felt a little outnumbered actually,...which was strange...i've never felt out numbered on my home turf before. I really didn't know how to handle it, so in the end and basically drank and kept quiet. My husband was trying,...but it became a situation in which he felt torn and in the middle. I feel really bad about that actually. It was really hard to be 'pleasant' after that, so I drank and soaked in the view of Melbourne, and they went back to talking bavarian without me,...kind of like being in Munich really.

I think the thing that worried me the most was that these people are now, and will always be connected to my life. They went to Kindergarten with my husband, their girlfriends went to school with my husband,...their parents and his parents have known each other since they were kids,...blah, blah, blah. These people will play a large part in my life and there is NO escaping it. Normally I put stuff like this aside because I figure I'm not going to have to see or deal with the person who's annoying me for the rest of my life. But this is different. maybe you're right. I don't have a great deal of faith in these guys accepting something different to 'the way things are done' - and I don't another yucky situation. That was awful.

In the 17 or so years I have lived here I have had more than the occasional conversation with Germans comparing US/UK with Germany. Whenever I suggest that people in he US/UK may be friendlier to strangers I am always rebuffed with the argument that it is a superficial or insincere friendliness. I have often been told that it is, in fact, harder to make 'real' friends in the US or the UK, because you first have to break through this mask of superficiality. Germans on the other hand cut straight to the chase, don't make idle chit chat, are selective in who they call friends, but make more sincere lasting friendships. I think it's a myth some people like to believe in to justify or explain their own discomfort in dealing with strangers. It is definitely a common attitude here and certainly not restricted to the OPs friends.

At least the wine would have been good, melbel.

You may never get their acceptance until you leave your man and then you're the best woman ever, which is what happened to me, you may be able to forge a truce though.
Hope they don't start with the helpful* correction of your German too as my ex's pals did.

*i.e. unsolicited, show-offy and done entirely to put me in my place

Bizarre, only a Bavarian could travel to the other side of the planet and complain about friendliness.

Thanks guys,

I feel so much bettter already.

@ Katerina - I agree. There was a shop that I walked into while in Melbourne and as I was walking around the sales assistant and I exchanged the expected "Hello"s and "How are you?"s,...and then I just went back into being how I always was back home. I liked her top and commented on it, she thanked me, I asked where she got it from, she told me and gave directions, and then we just flowed into a chat about fashion, good places in Melbourne these days for a Saturday night drink, and the weekend weather. We bounced back and forth and it was loads of fun. It was so easy. It felt great! I thanked her, which confused her a bit, so I told her I'd been away from home for over 2 years and missed being able to do that. And Guess what,...she said...I know,isn't it great,...and then before we knew it we were off on another chit chat. I walked out of that shop 10 minutes later totally revived and beaming all over.

I get that I can't do that here. I learnt that lesson the hard way very early on. But it doesn't matter. I do a new version of it in Munich - it's the sort of version that doesn't scare people here too much, but keeps me happy.

I guess I just wanted our freinds to be the receivers of how good it can be.

You should remind your husband that had he not talked to someone he did not know, he may not have met you.


Bah. I'm sick of Germans and all their deep talks. Can't people just shoot the shit once in a while? As Katrina says, be yourself and wish your friends luck. People who feel they should be unfriendly to strangers to prove their sincerity to their close friends and family must have real problems in unfamiliar social situations.

Not to condone the original issue, but to be honest this kind of conversation no doubt happens here frequently, albeit from the reverse perspective, when we as expats complain to Germans about the lack of friendliness observed amongst the populace here.
They're probably surprised, and wonder why anyone would complain about such a direct, efficient approach.

I was in Glassons (hey, it was the new Breast Cancer t-shirts) and the girl at the till liked my lipcolour, so we had a chat for 5 minutes about random stuff like she had been to the dentist's in the morning and her mouth was still puffy, so she wanted a cheer-up pressie, another girl covered her till and off she dashed to Farmer's.

It's like casual flirting - a little pick-me-up for all concerned.
Like horses to water and drinking really, you can't make someone understand that doesn't want to.

Bugger, I should not have mentioned flirting - another big difference between Germany and elsewhere...

Quite an interesting topic. Mainly because i'm wondering if this is a fundamental difference between 'new world' and 'old world'. I mean, i was brought up in the UK, i've been to neither the US nor Oz, but I somehow think that the culture in Germany is more similar to the UK than many people may think. I mean, being 'reserved' and minding your own business is quite common etiquette in England, like it is here in Germany. On saying that, in the UK you do come across the ocassional chirpy soul who may just spark up a conversation with you; that also happens in Germany too.

Melbel I read your post real quick and hope I didn’t totally misunderstand your drift.

My girlfriend is not German but has been here long enough to behave much like them. The other night we were in a restaurant, just the two of us, and the waiter comes over and starts asking my girlfriend ‘Are you Russian?’ . She just stared at him and said ‘Is the Pizza ready?’. When he was gone she said to me WTF – this guy should mind his own business.

I felt good about this because so often I have been with more open North American women and in that situation they would have struck up a conversation with the guy.

If I was a waiter I would not be rude and start up a conversation with a woman that is having a meal with a man. To me it shows total disrespect. In fact if I have deep feelings for a woman and a waiter does that I feel to punch the shit out of them.

Hi Battalionboy,..No, I'm not really talking about flirtation or picking up,...more about having a friendly chat with someone. I guess there's a difference between someone trying to pick you (or your girlfreind) up, and just talking with you or her. Do you know what I mean? Mind you, I wasn't there so maybe I'm wrong,..maybe he was flirting with her.

I just mean being friendly and open about talking with strangers.

Tell your husband you think his friends are fucking idiots (that's important, not just idiots), but that you'll tolerate and be nice to them because they are his friends. Let him know that they're his frineds and you respect that friendship, but after what's happened they'll never be your friends.

Then never be friendly to them again, be nice, be curteous, but never friendly.

...and maybe point out that you were never as rude and disrespectful to his "Friends" as they were to his wife.

God, it sounds like your Bavarian friends just need to chill out and stop behaving like uptight Germans.

I agree with these sentiments. This is not down to mere cultural (in)difference...they also behaved badly towards the OP. Then to start speaking in Bavarian afterwards and leaving the OP out of the conversation...more bad manners. I wouldn't miss their friendship!

Hey Swanwald,

Yep,...we did have that conversation the next day. It was a hard one to have because my husband ultimately wants us all to be best pals - after all they're his best pals. But, just because you fall in love with someone doesn't mean that will, or have to love their friends. Admitedly I didn't call them fucking idiots (although I really wanted to). He knows that I will be nice, courteous and pleasant to this travel group in the future, but he also knows that that is not for their sake. Not his choice,...mine,..and is for the sake of other people around them. There are some really great people in the orignial group of freinds, and I wouldn't want to make them uncomfortable in social situations. There were two on that night who basically went to town on me, and those two,...my husband now knows, will not get a single pieced of my soul again. Nice, courteous and pleasant,...but as you said,...never friendly.

But I guess I just wanted to try and undertstand it a little more. There are so many things that I find hard to understand,...and then there are others which I figure out with very little pain or stress. Some of you have been here for so long, and it has really helped me at times to come on line and read some of the posts. I might read stuff that sometimes that I don't agree with, but sometimes I read a take on something that I hadn't considered before and it really helps.

I agree, this isn't just a cultural difference. This is personal problem these two have and to talk in such a way to your host is realy bad manners.

I would tell my partner that although they are his friends I will no longer meet with them as couples or wish to have them in my home.

They are rude and ignorant people who seem to have problem with things that are 'different'.

If they ever ask why you're being unfriendly to them, tell them that you're being "sincere".

@Punchbear.. Nice one

Sounds like your hubbys friends are the superficial tossers here!

I bet the same pair are the sort that have been everywhere and nowhere and would think the same kind of friendliness was great if you (IE the natives) were sat around in Mudhuts.

Agreed. Speaking in Bavarian is VERY bad manners!

I did some stuff at uni with the International Association and one of the things I helped with was orientation for newly arrived exchange students. One of the things I always pointed out to them was that in Australia, when someone asks "How are you?", they don't (as a general rule) want to know. It is a formulaic part of the greeting process and the expected response is something short and either neutral or positive - good thanks, not bad etc. So it would be fair to say that it is an insincere enquiry. Just like when I arrive to start work at my Nebenjob delivering pizza. There are generally 4 or 5 of us (drivers) standing around waiting for something to do and there is a round af "Alles Klar?" whenever someone turns up. Nobody expects/wants me to answer with anything other then "Ja - selbst?" or something to that effect. Equally as insincere as the Australian 'How are you?' or the American 'Have a nice day!' or numerous other of the formulaic pieces of speech that function as social lubricant among strangers or acquaintances who have to intereáct for some reason other than choice. As for further conversation with my co-workers, I can't seem to remember spending much time discussing the finer points os Kantian philosophy or the depth of my emotional connection to my wife or how deeply I sometimes miss my friends in Australia and so on. But we do talk quite a bit about what happenend in the latest roudn of the Bundesliga or (with a Pakistani co-worker) the latest cricket scores. Sure we may be sincere supporters of HSV or some other team but it ain't like it is a serious conversation - it is the talk of men who may not have anything else in common and are in a situation where they have to spend often extended periods in each others company.

Anthropological studies suggest that as much as 80% of human verbal communication, regardless of the relationship between those involved, is of little meaning beyond a function in bonding those involved or facilitating social interaction between individuals who have no prior connection between them (e.g. someone serving you in a shop or other situation).

So what your friends are in reality complaining about, ignoring for the moment the possibility that at least some of the Australians in question were likely to be genuinely interested in talking to someone from another country/culture, is the fact that Australian insincerity is not the same as German insincerity, that many of the unwritten rules of Australian (or US or Canadian or UK or wherever the smeg else) social interaction are different from those in German society and that is just the way it is.

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, many of the Toytown members like to have a bitch about German social etiquette (or perceived lack thereof) and I am no exception. I suppose the key here is accepting that those differences, whilst they may be annoying to you personally, are not wrong as such, they are just differnet ways of doing things.

What I would find galling in your position, melbel, is the fact that these folks refuse to accept the fact that these are just differences not failures on the Australian end of things and continue to insist that the German way is best. Good luck with getting through an unenviable situation.

(Then again maybe it was just the fact that they were in Melbourne, as all of us from the blessed state of NSW know, there is just something not quite right about you Mexicans )

Melbourne rocks!!

hey,...the latest statistics show that many Aussies are moving down to little mexico. Apparently they luuuuuurv it.

given the choice i'd rather be in oz than here but 'she' wouldn't go...

guten appetit... why do they give a fcuk...? but they say it. superficial, oder?

you take the whole package, beit the language, customs or person...

Seems to me some Bavarians are a special breed. This people were plain stupid and rude and should've stayed at home. Don't waste any more thoughts on them, just ignore them as best as you can.

Greetings from Melbourne - currently still 28 degrees

Hi Germania,

Spoke with my grandmother earlier today and she told me thta tomorrow it's going to reach 40 degrees in Melbourne. Good luck. And remember,...slip, slop, slap.

This post is coming out all in pieces - I think I've had too little sleep and too much caffeine. But I have to add my bit because I spent Christmas 2005 at home in Melbourne, and had the in-laws along too. The entire trip was a disaster and was the final straw leading up to my divorce. My Australian family went to incredible lengths to try to make the Schwiegereltern comfortable, but it still all went pear-shaped.

Advice. Regardless of how you now handle your bavarian friends, it's essential that you have your husband's support. The counterpart to their judgement would be saying that because they're Germans and choose who they are friendly to, that they can never really understand what being friendly is about. Hopefully he understands that they've hurt you by labelling you intrinsically superficial. Allow time to heal your hurt, use your husband's support, and soon you'll be able to make light of the differences between you and them. "Ich bin's, die oberflächlichen Australierin!" And there are still plenty of Germans who appreciate being around someone who's not so... stuffy.

But you also need to become more thick-skinned. Don't turn into a cold German, but you should accept that they will probably never understand your way of life, and that it's their loss. If they make an effort to understand, then you can talk about it, but otherwise don't bother.

Just did a quick search, looking for something explaining the Aussie way of life, but this is the best I came up with: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A721243 Give it a read - at least it might make you smile.

Try Values Australia too.

I'm sorry about your marraige Mat-T

That must of been tough.

And thanks for that link. You were right, it made me smile.

Yep 40 degrees in autumn - too much for me - I'll stay indoors

But how could I forget...end of 2006 my mother in law visited Germany for the first time since she moved as a kid nearly sixty years ago from Germany to Australia. The second the plane hit the runway she was miserable. She was miserable all those weeks, no matter how much my family bend over backwards. Mind you this woman is miserable here as well - first one to complain, to whine and embarress the whole family.
There are some people out there who are never happy and as little understanding as I have for them, sometimes they cross our path...After this disaster holidays of ours I totally ignore her. Even my husband is still embarressed. Good thing about it was, he finally saw her the way she really is - which I by the way worked out within days - and that was 10 years ago.
Now one could argue because she is German she is the way she is. Nö - I don't think so. I've never come across any other person like that before and I lived 32 years in Germany.

I'm neither Australian nor German, but that kind of attitude is just unacceptable from anyone, regardless of their nationality. Some cultures are superficial, some are not. But those people asking them "How are you?" don't mean any harm, and how the Germans reacted angrily to that is just childish and xenophobic. Fortunately, there are also Germans who have respect for other cultures. You don't have to defend Australian culture or people, just like those Germans don't have to defend theirs. Some gratitude, especially since you have been nothing less but a gracious host and tried hard to make them feel welcome.

you felt bad about him being 'torn' I think he should have 'stuck up for you' more - doesn't matter whether he agreed with the sentiment or not - he shouldnt let them be so rude to you and then have the nerve to chat in Bavarian with them. I guess though, with respect, that you're a bit too submissive to kick up a fuss about that. Didn't you get to know his friends before marrying?

Hey mebel!
i hope you didn´t waste good money on taking them to waterfront (is it still there? man i gotta get home more often!)
but it is really like Neandertaler and other posters have said, some people just can´t appreciate or accept the differences in other cultures or countries!

just curious, have you seen them since? i bet their the types who winge and complain about even single thing whilst travelling
but when they get home tell all their friends (wanted to say mates but obviously they don´t have any cos that is just insincere!)
that they had the time of their life and will imply that they now know more than you about oz!!

can´t stand people like that!!

Their reaction sounds a bit off the wall, especially for people who have travelled abroad, let alone if they consider you a friend and you are their host. If they appreciate directness and honesty, you could always ask them whether they have found you personally to be insincere in your dealings with them. Maybe they honestly haven't, didn't mean to offend you personally and were just letting off steam about strangers they met.*

Why do Germans shake hands so often? It may come across to other nationalities as excessively formal and stand-offish but that in itself doesn't make the individual German formal and stand-offish, it's just another social convention like chatting to strangers to pass the time of day. Most foreigners will recognise that, especially if they count that German as a friend.

[*If they were being personal, you could always pare the extraneous niceties out of their next visit: unsoftened towels, scratchy toilet paper, lumpy porridge, saltless food, water instead of wine, etc... ]

Of course, being sincere isn't just a German trait.

Hey Boomtown rat,

I did kick up a fuss about that,..but on the next day when we had a moment alone. It was hell couple of hours actually. But, in the end he realised that he hadn't really been standing by my side,...he hadn't really been standing by us. I love the fact that he's proud of his culture and his heritage - I am of mine too,... but not at a cost to us. He won't stand up to these guys - not in the way that I would like because he consideres that conflict. I consider that bullshit. The 'conflict / assertion' topic will always be a topic of differnece between us I think. He did talk with our guests a few times about that evening (in his own diplomatic way),...also when they were alone. He tried to explain another side of things to them. It seemed to help 2 out of the three of this travel group.

And yeah,...I had met them before I married my husband. The whole group (not all were on this trip) aren't like this. There are only a select few that are tough to understand.

Hey Barny,

Yep the Waterfront is still there, and no we didn't eat there with them. But I did go on another night. It still rocks.

Yes, we have met up again. And things were ok between two of the travelers and myself. But there is one,...the one who said 'That is superficial, it's not real, you're not real. No you're not!' and who also told me that I wouldn't, and couldn't possibly understand true and real sincerity in the form that they were talking about - yep,...this person walked into a birthday celebration at a Spanish restaurant last week, sat 2 seats away from me and didn't speak to me all night. She didn't even look at me. That sort of bullshit isn't worth it.

Hey katerina,...That's an absolute cack!

omg!!! your right that type of bs isn´t worth it!

sounds like you´ve got a good hubbie tho! if he respects you that is all that matters right, petty people aren´t worth it!
sounds like the other 2 are over it tho!?!

i´ve had german friends visit oz before and they loved the friendly nature of the people, the only thing they complained about was the lack of salt in the food and the small heads on the beer!!
(just like we complain the food here is often too salty and the beer a bad pour!!)

i didn´t get to southbank last year when i was home, it was winter and wasn´t the right weather to be sitting beside the river enjoying the atmosphere!! waterfront was one of my favourite places to go eat with friends in the summer!!! ahhh real seafood!!! i miss it!!
i can understand your disappointment tho because it is one of the prettiest sides of melb and sounds like it was wasted on inflexiable, unappreciative people!