Does your employer refer to you as "Dr."?

According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, it may be illegal in Germany to claim the title "Dr." (which in Germany becomes part of one's formal name) unless your doctorate was earned in Germany.


Pretty amazing, given that none of the world's top 50 research universities belongs to the Fatherland.

*chuckle* not surprising in a country where people with more than one doctorate insist on being called "Herr (or Frau) Doctor Doctor Schmidt"

Then again, I don't put much stock in a German Doctor title. An ex of mine insisted he needed a Dr. to be taken seriously as a dentist, so he got his by assisting some professor doing research on breast tissue development - I shit you not - and is now a dentist with a Dr. title. - but not as we would use in the states - a Dr. Med.

I work with 2 Docs that are not German trained, and they are still Doctors here. Earned their Professorships here in Germany- which is much harder to get than in North America.

Whoa! Jealous, spiteful, anal-retentive, academic colleagues in Germany? I can't believe it.

I saw a doctor in Aschaffenburg several years ago that insisted on being addressed as "Professor Doktor Doktor".

Normally most people don't sit on such high horses...

I know a guy in Hamburg who gave a couple of lectures on journalism, in a Uni there. He thought this entitled him to the title Professor, which he now uses with gay abandon. He even signs off on Xmas cards and personal letters to friends with Professor Gunter *****.
I think he could be done for this, but no-one in germany ever questions a Demi-Gott! Ever!

I read the same article on Spiegel Online, but it appears that the German education ministry decided that Americans with a Ph.D. are now allowed to call themselves Dr. in Germany. What isn't clear is whether non-Americans with an American Ph.D. can do the same

For my part, my business cards read Dr. Phil.... dunno whether that's worse than not having the Dr. at all...

I've never had any problems.

Though I have to try not to laugh when the lady from my house administration tranlates Herr Dr directly to Mister Doctor Mole as it does sound a little odd.

I had the discussion with a prof. of mine. She has a Ph.D. from CMU and she is prof. here. Additionally, she is German. She told me that she don't have the right to be Prof. Dr. but only Prof. XXX Ph.D. And the she could be charged with Missbrauchs von Titeln if she used a Dr. title.

The equivalence system is not clear. For example, it seems that the French Dr. have the right to be Dr. in Germany...

From my point of view it is quite stupid but well I don't write the German's laws.

In a German academic context it is a very big deal. At the University of Chicago, where I did my doctorate, professors were never called "Dr." but rather Mr. or Ms./Mrs. The assumption was, yes of course you have a doctorate, but what have you done with it (read: published) lately? Yet here nearly every postgraduate student and professor I meet is curious to ascertain through a serious of polite yet probing questions where I "fit" relative to the strictly defined food chain hierarchy of student --> doctoral student --> Habilitation-writer --> Private-Dozent --> Professor Ordinarius --> Professor --> God.

Then a number of my ex-colleagues from the 70s & 80s come under "God" but I still know them as Albrecht, Siggi & Ralph (2 German, one Swiss)...

Is this particular issue of recognition addressed by the Bologna Process? Rotten way to treat academic exchange and skilled researchers who can raise German universities' research profiles.

As a matter of interest, do they call each other that or do they say Herr Doktor ...? I've worked at several places, including where I am now, where the Germans/Austrians are on first name terms with the English speakers, because they know we prefer it, but refer to each other as Herr such and such, for the same reason.

Good point. When we (from a UK University) became part of an international collaboration it was a cultural change for many. Whilst we addressed our Prof as "Paul" the Germans were "Herr Dr." as you wrote. The first time in a meeting that the leader of one of the German teams addressed another German team leader as "Rolf" the latter reacted as if he'd been shot. Over the years they thawed out greatly. Amongst the "youngsters" (Siggi & Ralph from my posting) there was never any issues within the team - what the situation is with their students nowadays I don't know. I had misfortune to recently attend a funeral of a former colleague & many of these people were there & it was first-name terms at least in my hearing...

If you think that German universities are the only ones that regard themselves as being the fount of all knowledge and the foremost authorities on whatever subject you care to mention , you're sadly mistaken.

Yes they do. This is because of the Balogna Process (Wiki Link)



It includes the following countries:
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Croatia, Cyprus, Liechtenstein, Turkey, Albania, Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Holy See, Russia, Serbia, Republic of Macedonia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine and Montenegro

How do they address a British Surgeon?/ Herr Herr, German Docs must think it crazy that in the UK a surgeon/consultant is called Mr.

For the EU and the European Economic Area, if you have a PhD from an approved institution then you can use the title Dr. Source.

I come from a family with lots of Ph.D.s and it never has occurred to any of them to insist on being called "Dr." -- it's not part of your name, it's just an academic title. So if you write on official documents, tack a Ph.D. to the end of your name, otherwise, your name is Ralph. Well, I think my grandfather preferred to be called Mr. Xyz, but still. Modesty is a virtue.

Reminds me of that Fawlty Towers sketch:

"So you're two doctors?! What happened? Did you take the exam twice or something?".

Arent all US college lecturers called "Professor" so-and-so, regardless of whether they are the Chair of the institute or not..

strictly speaking you have a rank within professors in Canada and I assume the U.S. as well. One normally starts as a assistant professor, then becomes a professor and then if one does quite well can become a professor of research. This is if memory serves me correctly.

From what I have seen, it can depend a lot on the situation or particular department/faculty. Within one's own academic department the differences may reflect the variety of approaches that one sees in general in German workplaces. But at a professional conference things are much more formal with titles in abundance. My academic host, with whom I am on a first name basis (and the Du), always introduces me to a new colleague as Dr., and on a conference program he has me listed as Prof. Dr. (a title above me, since I don't have the equivalent of a Lehrstuhl). University students here seem pleasantly surprised if I—I gather, uncommonly within this culture—offer them the Du. In the States there is absolutely no standard practice. I personally accept my undergraduate students' referring to me in any way that attempts to be respectful (Mr., Dr., Professor, but not by my first name). I'll usually offer my first name to a grad student, but such informality makes some of my American colleagues cringe.

Eh

This has always been one of my German pet-peeves. If a Lufthansa stewardess yelled "Is there a doctor on the plane?", the thing would clearly crash as everyone ran to the skinny part to see if they could assist with the 948-page dissertation on Che Guavara they carry around.

My theory is that the whole first name thing (and modesty about titles) in anglo-american cultures was the result of a desire to distance civilian life from military life (where everyone is referred to by rank and last name). In Germany, the self-described pacifist capital of the world, they stubbornly stick to military address because they secretly really seem to like being subjugated! After all, no one fanticizes about being tied up and ravaged by a professor of women's studies ... they fantisize about being tied up and ravaged by Frau Farbissina, or German engineers.

I sat through an interminable German presentation once where a question for "Frau Dr. Schmidt' came out of the audience, and she wasted half of her response correction the questioner that she was properly addressed as "Frau Professor Dr. Dr. Schmidt." Not bad for someone whose only qualification was bedding down with Herr Professor Dr. Dr. Schmidt! Could enliven the old Catskills joke 'What has four legs and chases Katz ... Mrs. Katz and her lawyer!'

Actually, the superintendent of the U.S. high school I attended demanded to be referred as "Dr. So-and-so", but it was well known that he received his doctorate from a Florida mail-order diploma mill. I seem to remember he drove an Audi as well ... hmmm.

2 of my bosses are German Professors, so its Herr Prof. Dr... and I love the look on the faces of the patients when I talk to them with the 'du' form. When I say, I will get Dr XXX, they always correct me, 'You mean Professor X ?' I get a giggle out of it.

My boss calls me Dr Dolittle

I just spit my beer out. Do you work where I do?

Modest people don't care about titles.
I met a few important personalities when I lived in Mauritius and most of them were very modest and it was just a pleasure being around them.

Perhaps this is an issue best left to age. I worked at a uni with lots of doctors who were MDs as well as PhDs and seeing that we were all roughly in the same age group, we were on a first name basis. The older profs and/or docs were always refered to as Dr. soundso or Prof. soundso. Herr/Frau Prof Dr Dr is just someone who take him/herself way too seriously.

Wow, really? I would have expected the US academic culture to be roughly the same as Canada, but I was/am on a first name basis with most of my professors back home - at their behest. Sure, not in first year lectures with 200 other students when they don't know you from Adam, and the truly elderly profs still prefer a bit of formality, but I hadn't called a professor by their last name in about 3 years until I came over here. I still find it hard to take the formality seriously when some of my instructors are probably only ten years older than me or less and I'm used to calling senior profs in their 50s "Bob" or whatever.

@spiller, so I really am a Dr. in this Country!!!

It's a strange one. My one time (ex)father-in-law (ENT Consultant and Surgeon) was Mr XYZ in NHS premises and it bestowed deference.

Doctor (or the use of the word) is related to umm ...Doctors. GP's and Juniors. It really has very little relevance (in terms of image) in the UK.

PS: I did once go for an interview with a new bank manager who insisted on on calling himself Mr Titman. Why he would want to accentuate his name with the 'Mr' is beyond me, as it did described him to a tee; he was a complete and utter tit. And a man.

Thinking back on my studies, I also never called anyone Dr. Anything. Maybe it is what you study that counts? Maybe religious studies are still a bit old-fashioned.

Yes, you are. But people still wont believe you..

In Ireland I was on first name terms with the dean of my faculty (he was my prof in 1st Year as head of department). Actually we all were on first name terms with all our lecturers, even the MD's. Then again Ireland is always different.

In the US, there are different levels of professor. You start as assistant professor, then go to associate professor, then just professor. In the University of California system, there is a final rank of UC professor, which gives you the right to work at whatever UC you choose (there are 10).

The ignorant undergrad minions, however, are not always aware of the levels and will often refer to lecturers as professors without knowing better. Lecturers are full-time teachers who do no research.


Eh? When I was an undergrad, all students (undergrad or grad) were on a first-name basis with all professors (even the emeritus oldies). This was at UC Santa Cruz. It was the same at Cornell when I worked there for a summer. It's also the same way at UC Berkeley, where I currently work.

I have heard similar levels of formality in other Humanities disciplines here and have the impression from visiting scientists that research labs can be less formal.

If I have a Bachelor of Arts .. what kind of a nifty title can I give myself?

Bachelorette Artiste Ruthie

A friend who works for the Washington Post passed this one along to me.

Non-European PhDs In Germany Find Use Of 'Doktor' Verboten

By Craig Whitlock and Shannon Smiley
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, March 14, 2008; A01


Jeez, seems a bit much calling in the police because someone got their doctorate from Harvard and not Humboldt.

Topics merged by admin

That this crazy law got reformed a few years ago apparently only to comply with the Bologna Process is even more ridiculous. Did it not occur to those revising the law that universities outside the EU can graduate good PhDs and MDs?

Interesting to see that only some US unis were 'approved' and UK ones were already accepted so then what about Australian degrees? As worthless as Australian driving licences in Germany are they? Hey, maybe they'll introduce a system where you can pay more €€€ to prove that the piece of paper with the posh seal from the uni is real just like the plastic card from VicRoads that says you can actually drive. Unbelieveable that authorities would even spend time on this but then again given that people spend so much time polishing their academic egos in the German system maybe not so surprising after all.

I do not want to open a can of worms by comparing the driving exams in the US/Australia with
the European version, but there is probably a reason why those driving licenses are only
accepted for temporary visitors.

As far as US Ph.D.s go, it seems that this ridiculous situation has been resolved: US Academics Harassed over 'False' Credentials

Well done gaijin... what exactly did you just add to this thread? Apart from slagging off Australian and US driving licences that is, without actually saying it in as many words and then telling us that the US situation has been addressed? Well it hasn't - as I posted, only some US unis have been 'approved' which means my point still stands unanswered... if the law is so ridiculous why not get rid of it altogether so degrees are degrees and not some people treated as second class.

Cool, something I can comment about. We had this discussion a month ago and we ask our secretary to look into it. Unfortunately I don't remember exactly what forms where presented to me, but the essence is that if you got your PhD from a Carnegie Institution in the US you can use the Dr. in front of your name with the addition of your institution. For example to correctly use the Dr. in front of my name I need to sign it as

Dr./University of Nebraska-Lincoln XXX

With regards to the stuffiness, I'm working at a Max Planck institute in physics. My bosses and colleagues are particular at all with regards to Dr. or Prof, but some other directors are so ymmv.

My bosses and colleagues are particular at all with regards to Dr. or Prof, but some other directors are so ymmv

Sorry, but do I need to have a PhD to understand the above sentence?

Should say

With regards to the stuffiness, I'm working at a Max Planck institute in physics. My bosses and colleagues aren't particular at all with regards to Dr. or Prof, but some other directors are so ymmv. (your mileage may vary)

Thanks for the clarification ;-)

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mckeith.html

http://www.badscience.net/?p=362