A movie to be released in Germany on Thursday March 13, 2008 dramatizes the possibility of another dictatorship emerging in Germany and concludes that such a hypothesis is possible.

Reuters: Film shows Germans not immune to return of Nazis


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Official site: Die Welle (2008)

It's based on a true story, but not in Germany. Instead, it was an experiment by a school teacher in California. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_%28book%29

Yep. I wanted to mention Morton Rhue's (Todd Strasser) book The Wave, too, but I thought I'd leave it for the comments.

The caption "Film shows Germans not immune to return of Nazis" is a great eye catcher, but doesn't grasp the intention of neither the movie nor the book, I think. A "return" means something known which can easily be recognized and averted, but the scary message of the movie and the experiment is that totalitarian elements creep in slowly, and possibly change their nature in different times.

I agree, RD. I do agree that Germans are probably no more "immune to the lure of charismatic leaders or persuasive group dynamics than any other nationality" but at the same time I do not think they are any less immune either. And of course the Third Reich happened in Germany, but virtually everyone in the world knows about it. I am not sure why one would assume that Germans are supposed to have learned more from it than other nationalities, particularly nowadays in the younger generations. I would hope that other nationalities have learned just as much (or as little).
And blaming the Third Reich on the German mentality or saying that something like this could never happen again is very naive (as has been proven with that experiment and many religious sects/cults prove the same, in my opinion); it is dangerous to underestimate the susceptibility of a human being to things like this.
Looks like an interesting movie. Unfortunately I won't be in Germany to see this. I do *think* I read the book at some point (but I am not 100% sure).
Reminds me of "Das Experiment" which is a very good German movie based on the Stanford prison experiment.

In the 80ies there was also an american TV movie about this book. In germany we had to watch it in school.

I made that assumption when I first moved here. I can't speak for everyone, but considering the scope of the War, and that they have a reputation for dealing with it better than, lets say, Japan, I thought they would have learned more from their past's mistakes. I think it's a fair assumption to make, although erroneous. I think the person making the assumption assumes too much empathy on the part of the subject.

Without professional help, or a rare amount of will power and self awareness, trauma begats trauma. Abusers were often abused themselves. It's a cycle that's hard to break. Look at Israel, or Zimbabwe.

Anyone read yesterday's Süddeutsche Zeitung article about this movie? Satyrical masterpiece.
"Film shows Germans not immune to return of Nazis" - erm no... I guess nobody would have been bothered by a more adequate and truthful headline. It looks like some kind of idiot just had a look at the surface.

On the overall subject: Leader-phenomenon(s) can be observed around the world, it's not a german but a human weakness. Regarding the fact that back then, Germany was residence to Europe's intellectual elite, I actually believe nobody claiming that if he had lived around 1930 'he would have acted differently, resistance, morality,detect the evil plot blah'. Thinking such is proof of vital ignorance and arrogance.
The contemporary circumstances and fears were fuel to the rise of Hitler, not any of those dubious 'german mentality' therories.

Sorry kids but this shit about 'could happen again' is just too boring and stupid to spend effort on. It's interesting that people still spend their time thinking about this subject but it is no more probable here than anywhere else - in fact it's less probable.

The book and film are about how a totalitarian regime comes into power - defying the logic of why a majority would support (actively or passively) a political system which is at the same time is ultimately detrimental to the majority. Compared to the 'world average', Germans are more travelled (so aware of other cultures), are highly educated, are economically prosperous, have structured and stable government (which also has a lot of checks and balances against centralisation of power), have highly-developed sense of selfishness (note queue-jumping!) and anti group-think, etc...

Totalitarian governments have existed since 1945 and still exist in plenty of countries..there's no need to ponder if it will happen again... it already has!

Oh man that movie looks fkn terrible. You gotta laugh at the Sophie Scholl character tossing out leaflets at the swim meet.

There were many experiments in the US aside from the 3rd wave.. as Mariposa mentioned the Stanford prison experiment, the Milgram experiment as well as the blue-eyed children experiment by Jane Elliot. Anyone who went to grammar and high school knows that it's not too difficult to fall into a group, follow the leader and do what they say in order to be accepted.

As many have pointed out, the idea that this is a German phenomenon is ridiculous. Unfortunately there are many people who still think there is something inherently German that allowed this to happen.

I watched it too.

Hitler became dictator of Germany by the Enabling Act on March 23, 1933, less than two months after he was voted Chancellor. He then absolved the remaining political parties by Summer 1933, less than half a year after obtaining power. Creep in slowly?


I think too that this is not a specific German phenomenon, but mainstream German culture is particularly susceptible to some manifestations of it. As mentioned in other threads in this forum, there is a certain state of mind that is very pronounced in German thinking, that once there is a law, you can do anything as long as you're not breaking it explicitly. Or, as Lenin put it once - There will never be a revolution in Germany, because you're not allowed to step on the grass (said mainly in light of the 1948 "spring of nations" which basically skipped over Germany and Austro-Hungary).

Couple that with an awe and unrestrained respect for authority, especially in uniform, and you have all the eggs you need to cook the totalitarian omelette.

Me too! I watched the original movie too, and was wondering if Die Welle was a remake. I guess it is, huh?

If you have something against what I said, why don't you skip the ad hominem crap and explain why you think it's wrong.

Because it's clearly racist (or nationalist for you pedants) and insulting to any German.

I'm German and none of those characteristics describe me in the slightest.

Racist? Nothing of what I said had anything to do with race. Or nation for that matter. Read my post again and take 3 deep breaths before replying.

Yes, I know German is not a race. There isn't really a good word to describe a person who stereotypes people based on nationality which is why I added the term nationalist in parenthesis for anyone pedantic enough to need to point that out.

So there's no such thing as mainstream German culture?

Sure you did. All three of the following statements are nationalistic stereotypes that quite are quite frankly BS. Germans walk on grass all the time. Many have no respect for authority, and many also break the law.

So German thinking is a nationalistic stereotype? It's part of German culture, you can adopt it even if you're from Malawi.

You do understand the meaning of the word "mainstream", don't you? You don't need 100% of the votes to get into office. In Hitler's case, you don't even need a majority. A solid support, backed by street terrorism and some nifty intrigue will get you all the power you need, especially when the opposing parties' leadership doesn't even lift a finger against you, for fear of breaking some law.

I don't understand this question. How do you define "German thinking"? I certainly couldn't.


Not really, I'd say it's extremely variable within the country. In fact I think the different states in Germany have more in common culturally with their neighbouring countries than with eachother.

When other nationalities took up the cause so enthusiastically, it can't have been inherently German, but the anti-Semitism within the culture can't have been a hindrance. At least two of the stories in the original edition of the Brothers' Grimm's collection are openly anti-Semitic, and the Brothers Grimm based their stories on oral accounts collected as they travelled around Germany. I have also seen another unrelated collection of 19th century German children's stories, rhymes and poems, in which there is one anti-Semitic rhyme with an accompanying illustration.

I do but thank you for your explanation, however I disagree that there is anything about mainstream Germany that differentiates it from any other Western country in this regard.

Genie, I think one needs to differentiate between the Nazi era in its specific context (short Weimar democratic period, weak constitutional barriers, societal preconditions) and generic settings that can favour totalitarian developments, and the latter is the movie's topic. The link to German history just draws more attention, I guess.

You surely know that the ideology and also the power basis of Nazism didn't appear all of a sudden; it took more than a decade of agitation (the NSDAP party had been founded in 1920), so there was a gradual radicalization of a growing number of people.

Anti-Semitism was rife everywhere in Europe, nothing German about it. Have you read The Merchant of Venice?

True, I think they're more of followers...

Indeed. And King Edward I of England kicked the jews out.

But the English don't wait for the red man to go green before safely crossing the road. Which I think was Genie's original point...

Just because there is a relatively large amount of regulation in Germany sure as shit doesn't mean that Germans like to follow them or indeed do follow them. In my experience, the English are much more likely to want to stick to the rules than Germans.

And from genie...


Yea, right! You don't know Germans very well my friend.

You're right that the Weimar to Nazi story is a very special case, but it was made so because of the Nazi leadership's insight that this special case can be used to the full for their purposes. The societal preconditions are exactly what I'm talking about. It was more than the recession of the 30s and the collective memories of the early 20s that it evoked. It was also more than the idea of the "Kulturnation" and the other nationalistic ideas that Bismark unleashed and were always reminisced on lovingly. I think there is definitely some kind of cultural predisposition to obey laws to the letter that made von Papen virtually inert after Hitler gave the premiership of Prussia to Goering. Or that allowed the Enabling Act, and the following decrees to absolve the parties, without a single chirp of resistance from their leaderships, who simply played on and committed political Harakiri.


I disagree with your time frame. After the beer hall putsch, Hitler got out of prison and started putting together the shreds of his devastated party only in 1925. I think they only had the ban on the NSDAP lifted in 1926, and until the crash of October 1929, they weren't anything larger than the Bayernpartei here. The real thrust to power came only in the 30s.

And even at that time, to the majority of Germans Hitler was just another party leader. He made explicit claims all the time that the Nazis would come to power by the constitution. Nobody thought that he means to get absolute power. For the average German, including people inside the political system, it came as a big surprise that Hitler became dictator, it just jumped on them, quite suddenly.

Still, there was no significant resistance.

I don't know what to answer, but I think the best thing to reply to such a deep and grounded claim: yes I do.

If the germans greet each other with an "alles in ordnung", then there's a high chance that they are ordnung freaks: the kind that like to march in lines, and shout in unison(so long as it's not against the ordnung). Individualistic germans! next thing you know someone will claim the existence of German Cuisine

Why did the German cross the road?

Genie, do you think that had those circumstances come about a little further to the west in France or a little further to the East in Austria or a little further to the South in Italy that the result would have been different?

Keeping in mind that many Germans share more culturally with these nations (or at leasts certain parts of these nations) than they do with eachother.

Which circumstances? France's economy was devastated after WWI just as much as Germany's, reparations or no reparations. The recession of '29 affected the entire western world. The only difference is that France wasn't on the losing side, but it certainly was in 1871.

I don't know much about Italian history, but tell me what was the difference in circumstances between Germany and the ex Austro-Hungarian empire after WWI?

Um... there was a sign saying "Übergang hier"?

Neither had such charismatic leader step in and take advantage of the situation by throwing sugar in everyones eyes making promises of a brighter future.

I'm pretty sure you couldn't pull the same tricks Hitler and his cronies crafted in post WWI France.

Even that didn't win him the majority in the March '33 elections, even after he used the state's power to instill terror on the competing parties and suppress their campaigns. That's not how he got power, at least not the only, or even main success he had.

Leon Blum? He kind of proposed a brighter future. Well until everybody decided to screw him.

Some people tried to do a communist or far right coup in France in the 30's. It did not work because the army did what the government asked for! A thing that did not happen in Germany...

Anyway, I think what happen to Germany could happen to many other countries including France.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into a history lesson because I just plain, don't know enough about it to be of any use to anyone in such a discussion. What I do know a lot about and what I have studied extensively is human nature and sociology and I do not, for one second believe there is anything inherently German about what happened. That because some arbitrary line that was drawn on a map makes a person more or less prone to commit such atrocities is absolutely ridiculous. To even say that is so extremely offensive.

Check out the Stanford experiment. We all like to separate ourselves from "evil" and think that we're not capable of commiting atrocities but time and time again we are proven wrong. I take issue with the assertion that it's a German problem when in reality it's a human nature problem.

Sorry, you can't Sieg Heil someone that looks like this:

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ER: I didn't say at any point that it was inherently German, I said there is something about mainstream German culture that makes it particularly susceptible to some forms of it. Anyone can get pneumonia, but you're more likely to get one easier if you stand outside in the chill with wet clothes on.

Funnily he never proposed that... He just wanted France to be a nicer place to work and to live.

Tosh, piffle and Bollox. You may think you know Germans but I suspect that your outlook is as severely blinkered as the content of some of your posts. The emerging "mainstream German culture" of the say 16 to 45 year olds reflects not one iota of what you say.

The only thing that was in any way novel about the Nazi era and accompanying holocaust was the scale of which it took place.

'Alles in Ordnung?' is just an expression, meaning "Everything OK?" It doesn't mean 'Is all of your paperwork filed neatly in triplicate?'

If I ask a Brit if everything is "ship shape and bristol fashion" I don't guess I'm going to see the jolly jack tar shimmy up a rope to rig the mizzen mast or break out a mop to swab the decks.

Bla, bla and bla. So tell me, why does everybody have a light on their bikes but almost nobody wears a helmet?

Not only: this was the first (and last) time in history someone turns a democracy into a dictatorship without using military force.

Well that would kind of support the proposition that modern Germans are NOT law-abiding and ARE individualistic and NOT given to going with the crowd, wouldn't it???