Annoyed by estate agent fees

I am currently in the process of looking for a house to rent around Frankfurt and am sickened by this 2,38 estate agents fee. We have moved twice in Germany already and cannot understand why the future tenant has to pay this fee and not the landlord who is making the profit. I have thrown so much money out of the window because of these fees that I'm nauseated. We had a flat last year that had a recurring mold problem and were forced to leave. The landlord was responsive but the problem kept coming back. The "courtage/provision" for this place was not cheap and was money out of the window. In today's market, where people are much more mobile (due to work) than before, this concept of tenants paying a fee is ridiculous. It is no longer a landlord's market as it was in Germany in the past.
Sorry, I just had to get that rant off my chest.

Just like paying fees for your current back account - its ingrained here...

What's the point of the makler courtage anyway? I'd really like to understand where it comes from.

I mean, I understand if you're paying an agency to find your place, but why pay 2,38 months rent because they made a post on a website?

In Belgium, the courtage is paid in reverse to the one moving in...

There is no point - but its ingrained here - try finding place to rent without.

This still f**cks me off.

As you say, I do the walking they do some paper work.

Not all places require this though. Sometimes the renter pays for the fee.

One alternative is to find a tenancy which is arranged directly from the owner of the property, ie with no makler/agent in between: "direkt vom Vermieter" as its known. Owners arent allowed to charge fees as far as Im aware.

I agree, they're bastards! We've sent emails to all the local real estate agents, stating what we're looking for, how much we want to pay etc etc, only got one reply...seems that they don't want to do any work for the ridiculous amount of money that they earn.

Also, don't forget the Maklercourtage also includes the MwSt, hence 1,19 2,38 3,57, etc.

just rented a place directly throught a verwaltung, and I'm not paying any fees wahat so ever to any makler, however I am still paying a service fee for something. Whichis rather dumb but a lot cheeper than 2.38 KM. Very happy not to pay a estate agent. However my current apartment was through a mackler ubut she drove me to the apartment and helped me with the contract and was very nice about it indeed and the apartment was cheep enough that it made it worthwhile. This is an exception to the normal rule however.

I have to join in this rant against Maklers. They are seriously, the spawn of the devil. I hate them. I just received an e-mail from mine threatening to take to me court unless I pay for the 3.5% Makler fee for the flat I just bought (which is being paid today). They couldn't even do their job properly, and the Protocol was incomplete, consequently I almost paid €13k extra because the size of the flat was actually different to the advertisement.

I'd love to be able to do something about that- any ideas? I sympathise with all those dealing with Maklers.

this happens so often grr!

Well if you rent a place in the UK through an agency, for example, the agency fee will probably be say 10% and the owner is charged this monthly. The owner obviously passes this charge on to the renter. So the renter pays for this agency fee in the end just like here. The only difference here is if you don't move for a long time then the agency fee doesn't work out to be so much whereas in the UK you will pay it every month regardless. Just a different method of paying for a service.
The bottom line is no one works for nothing. Why should you get angry over having the feeling or belief that other people should work for nothing? To me this is a British and North American attitude expecting that people should work for free or very little pay.

BB, I disagree. It seems clear that those complaining object to having to pay what seems like an exorbitant fee to some unnecessary intermediary. They want to deal directly with the landlord (or owner) from the get-go.

Unfortunately the majority of owners don't want to deal direct and as it costs them nothing then they use a makler...

Maklers normally charge the landlord/seller and the renter/buyer in any housing transaction. Although this is gradually changing and some agents are forgoing their fees for landlords/sellers to attract business. I contacted one recently to inquire about renting out some property as he had advertised no fees. Unfortunately, it was not as simple as that... yes he would do all the advertising/contracts etc for free but if I rented the property myself or via another agent he would then charge me the equivalent to three months rent.

What I find outrageous is that in a country where everything is bureaucratically controlled this is the one area where there seems to be no regulation at all.

As for agencies in the UK at least they provide a service in that they will collect the monies from the tenant. Having been stung on several occasions by tenants who just "disappeared" owing rent I was happy to pay an agent 10% and he took care of the whole process. Quite different in Germany when they just take their provision and thats that.

Take a closer look at the Gesetz zur Regelung der Wohnungsvermittlung ... and § 34 c of the Gewerbeordnung

These fees are commonplace in the US ... in fact, they're much higher.

The big difference is that Germany has a buyer pays system vs, a seller pays system. If someone is already getting a big chunk of money for the sale of one's house, he's less likely to squawk; if someone's already shelling out a ton of dough for the house, he's more likely to squawk at this added charge.

It's just custom: Compare caller pays vs. recipient pays cellphone billing. Same thing.

The broker is putting together buyers and sellers, know the area, can give advice about comparable homes, etc. which usually ends up saving everyone a lot of time.

I never said the Makler does nothing. I just find it absurd paying to make someone else a profit. And of course there are places that are direct from the owner, but check out the immobilien scout and see just how many there are - what, MAYBE 5%? The Makler is performing a service on behalf of the owner, not on the tenant's behalf. The typical MO is you meet with the estate agent, he tells you a bit about the place (carefully forgetting to mention the aslylum seekers home across the street or discouraging facts), gives you a pre-printed contract that you can buy from any stationary shop, and collects 2,38% from you in the end. In Mexico, for example, the agent compiles a list of places meeting your standards, takes you to those places, and collects his fee from the owner. It is possible.
Of course this is all ingrained in the system here, but it doesn't mean that it can't or won't change. Remember the store opening hours used to be 8 to 6 M-F and 8 to 1 on Sat? That was also ingrained, but that sure changed didn't it. I remember people saying back then that this isn't the US or GB and things are just that way in Ger. Well judging by the amount of people I see at REAL on Sat at 9pm, the Germans are enjoying the new opening hours as well. I'm just waiting for stores to be open on Sunday as well. But here in NRW people don't care so much about stores not being open on Sundays. Judging by the number of German license plates I see, we all just hop on over to Holland and enjoy their being open on Sundays.
I guess I have to wait another 5 yrs before the makler courtage BS disappears.

I guess when that happens you will find something else to get angry about.

No need for attitude here BB. My list is relatively short.

I once rented a fairly snazzy furnished villa apartment for 6 months, via a Verwaltung-come-self-styled-Anlegeberater outfit, who were real bastards. Entrance hall was marble, all that sort of shit, video-entryphone, snooty arrogant git running it. They demanded all sorts of references, including bank guarantee arrangement - which cost a hefty fee to arrange, instead of simple deposit put in a sparkasse account, which is the usual way of doing things. My bank spoke to them on the phone about it, they said they wouldnt charge me the arrangement fee for the guarantee as they felt it unfair of this agency to demand this just for a short let. I shouldnt really have taken the place, but needed somewhere quick.

Then when it was time to vacate, I got an appointment with a representative of the agency to come round and do the protokol rückgabe early one workday morning before I went to work. She didnt appear. I waited an hour in the flat, losing time and money. Rang them later to find out why she hadnt turned up. Said she did. Turned out the silly cow was standing outside the building in the porch the whole hour, waiting, expecting me to suddenly arrive from down the street! Didnt have the sense the ring the doorbell.

Second time round: I said I want a protokol signed to confirm the Rückgabe is ok, she didnt even have anything with her. Not even a pen! I lent her mine, and she tore a page out of her tiddly little pocket diary, wrote a couple of lines on that and handed it to me! I just couldnt be bothered to pursue it further, was just glad to be rid of the situation, see the back of them and be off and away.

Actually I don't understand why real estate agents are involved in apartment rentals in the first place. For a sale property maybe, but rental? The whole rental thing here just baffles me... tenants having to pay huge agent fees, and security deposits that are difficult to recover, as well as having to install kitchens and fixtures on top of all that. It's crazy to have to invest all that money in real estate that belongs to someone else. It's just one of those aspect of German life that's bizarre and unreasonable. Although I'm sure people who own property and rent it out here must rub their hands in glee...

If no one uses the Maklers then there wouldn't be any. Dont use them then you dont have to pay them. The places I have rented here have always been direct with the owners and I have have never paid Makler fees. In Munich we have mrlodge.de I think their makler fees are reasonable and I would have no qualms using their services.

I have just paid the Makler fee in full (about 3.5%). And now I'm waiting for feedback and advice from a lawyer, but I'm wondering if anyone has used "Verbrauchenschutze" as if this is a chepaer service than shelling out lawyer costs then I'd prefer to use it, should I press ahead with trying to take some kind of action.

My situation was that on ImmobilienScout I found my flat. It was advertised at 63 sq m. When the bank requested the Protocol, they noticed that one document was missing. This one document proved that the flat was 57 sq m, and so a difference of 6 sq m, consequently I renegotiated a new price and got €13k knocked off the original price. Not happy with the Makler's services w.r.t. this, I'm thinking about taking action against them, since they refuse to offer some kind of rebate or reduction to their fees. Yesterday they sent me an e-mail threatening to use Bailiffs if I don't pay up (in fact, their full fee was paid yesterday too, so this should be sorted according to my bank). I think they wrote this e-mail in response to mine i.e. to scare me off for asking for a reduction (or the best 'defence' is 'offence')

All comments welcome on this.

Gonna have to agree with Battalion Boy here. My boyfriend and I are also looking for a flat and have been doing so since the beginning of the year with no luck. Part of the reason our search has gone on so long is because we refuse, on principle, to use a Makler or to consider flats which require Provision. Ok actually it's not me who refuses, it's my significant other, but unfortunately I think the bottom line is that you just simply have to be willing to look a bit longer and do a bit more legwork to get around paying the extra fees. It can be done, but it's not easy.

I once rented a flat with an Abstand payable to the previous tenant, supposedly to "buy" a shitload of old junk furniture and effects that he had neatly listed on two sheets of A4. With the help of an Anwalt I later recovered 50% of the money back that Id paid him (and I also chucked out the greater part of his old junk as well).

Bottom line with me now is that I will not consider renting any flat where there is any mention of Abstand. Dont care if its for a Miele Einbauküche or whatever. I will not play that game again.

Abstand - ohne mich!

Yeah, that's another issue I have to deal with. Whereas I'm sure it is possible to find a place w/o a EBK that also limits my options. We bought a EBK here and have moved with it twice, both times requiring the services of a monteur. Now I don't know what to do with this kitchen when we move. Can/do we ask for an Abstand? What if we don't get it and have to move an entire blasted kitchen with us and just store it in the basement to collect dust and eventually smell bad.
Just another headache in moving. I'm just annoyed because we went through all of this 2x last year and doing this again is making me nuts and poor. If the company were paying the Provision and EBK and school fees, I wouldn't be so annoyed. I just pray this is the last time for another 5 yrs. And it makes me sick that I know I will most likely just have to swallow the bitter pill. Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a little.

If it's another 5 years you're intending to stay, then you might want to consider buying rather than renting. Just a suggestion, and of course, this could be an entirely new thread...Okay let's continue with putting down Maklers

Even in the UK, the bulk of apartment rentals now take place via an agent. If a landlord only owns one property then it's a relatively simple process to deal directly with the tenant, but if they own twenty properties, then dealing with one single agent is far simpler for the landlord than dealing with twenty individual tenants.

Unusually, I agree with BB that, regardless of who pays the fees initially, it's the tenant who ultimately pays them. Anyone bemoaning the German system would do well to make a quick comparison of rental rates between the UK and Germany.

I also think that anyone who genuinely believes that all the Makler does for their money is turn up to the apartment once to show it to you is rather underestimating the amount of work involved in finding a new tenant.

I accept that the amounts charged by Maklers in Germany is higher than in other countries (particularly for sales), but I don't have a problem with the system per se. And the money you spend when purchasing you save when selling, so it all balances out.

It actually seems to me that there are more apartments without an EBK, but there are plenty that have them as well. In your case I reckon you should just sell your existing EBK to whomever moves into your flat, and then move into a flat with an EBK. This is a common scenario and will save you from having to move your kitchen from place to place.

I detest estate agents, especially in the UK. During the UK house price booms in the past some people felt really cheated by them and several disgruntled customers exacted their revenge by going into the estate agents offices and shooting them with 12 gauge double barrelled shotguns.

You sure about that?

You shouldn’t really bother talking to me STB you know that I will only end up insulting you then you will report me to editor Bob then editor Bob will PM me with messages like:

Ah, that's more like it. BB had been making some fairly intelligent contributions to the forum lately, so I was wondering when his other personality would rear its ugly head.

The EBK (or lack of it) phenomenon is something which I find completely incomprehensible. What is the big deal about spending €2000 extra on a kitchen, which will be amortized over a few years anyway, and just leaving it there instead of having everyone go through the rigmarole of having one put into place and removed every time a new tenant comes in.

The problem that I have with real estate agents is not how much they make, it's how utterly incompetent and/or arrogant they often are...

Totally agree with you on that one, JW. I couldn't believe the cheek from the Maklers when they sent me their e-mail yesterday (see above). Unbelievable.

We've been searching for a place to buy for the past year, and have come across all kinds of Maklers. Some are arrogant, patronising, dismissive, seriously underestimate our buying potential because we don't always dress up, make bare-faecd lies that I'm amazed they can say with a straight face, suck up to us, try to bully us and much more.

But I have come across the odd one or two that are fair, informative, competent and genuinely helpful. It has been a dream to work with these individuals, and made the negotiations and whole experience much more pleasant. Unfortunately what they were offering wasn't what we wanted, but it was a refreshing change. So I can't agree that all Maklers are bad, but I really wish there were more of the good ones around.

Well, looking at it from the other point of view, they did a great job for us renting out our flat when we had to move out. Tenants were found & vetted for us. And all for free! (for us anyway!)

...and for those who buy property instead of renting? The only people who really benefit are those with multiple properties to sell up.

It's been mentioned already, but I would recommend http://www.immobilienscout24.de

It's how I got my place with no fees!

It's also how I got my place, with fees.

Unfortunately, not every 'Provisionfrei' property can be that interesting.

Just to wade in to the argument.

I own property in the UK that I rent out. The system in the UK is far fairer and avoids the ridiculous Makler charge. The landlord pays and not the tenant. The fees are not added to the cost of rental.

I have rented privately and through an agency and both times the tenant was charged the same amount. So say I rent a flat for £500 pcm the agent may take 10-15% a month for managing the property, finding tenants, contracts etc. I do not then put the price up to cover my costs because there is a limit to what people will pay and the price is set by the market whether renting from an individual or through an estate agent.

If I was to sell I pay the agent a fee for advertising, brochures, local papers adverts and internet. Usually a fee of around £200. When the sale is agreed and monies transferred then a further selling fee of around 0.75-1.5% of the sale price is paid to the agency. The buyer pays the price offered and is not subject to buyers fees. Obviously there are other things involved, surveys, stamp duty but I won't go into that.

I had to pay a fee of 70% of one months rent for a flat in Munich and then two months rent as deposit and then the rent for the month, all this for a rental period of just four months. Totally stupid in my eyes, a lot of money up front for such a short time frame.

My two cents.

...and for those who buy property instead of renting? The only people who really benefit are those with multiple properties to sell up. Well, when maklers are described as ´blood-sucking scum´ it´s maybe worth pointing out that for those of us who are renting a property out they can provide a valuble (and free) service.
Two sides to every coin etc etc.

I have to agree with what Batallion Boy said earlier. If the landlord had to carry the Makler fee we would have to pay it through higher rent.
Personally I cannot stand Maklers either, they make out they are offering a fantastic service. You see their ads on immobilien scout so obviously,
they are the ones with two photos on, one of the bath and one of the WC - and expect us to pay for that.
However I lived in London for a long time and the rent I was paying then was totally out of order for an absolute shit hole - and I moved from
one to the other because quite frankly the standard does not get better.
So makler costs do suck but if you live in a nice place for a long time then the blow is a lot softer.

I currently live in a really cool place where I avoided Makler costs, I went through a Wohnungbaugenossenschaft.

I would have no problem if they provided a service to the one who pays the fee. That's my beef with the set up.

I tell agents the criteria I am looking for, both "must have"s and "would be good if"s, but they show me all kinds of crap anyway. I'd pay the fee if they provided a service - but so far I haven't found one that does. They all have been little more than expensive schedulers. They can't get it into their heads that I won't rent a place that doesn't meet the stated criteria. Some even get pretty pissed after taking me through 5 places on a saturday and me not taking any of them. Doesn't matter to them that none meet even the "must haves."

Fee for service... is this such a hard concept.

That being said, it is a part of process, so you've got so suck it up and shell out the bills (in most cases).

Yes I totally agree with you NFL. That's exactly why I'm less than happy with the Makler that brokered the deal for my new place. They provided me a protocol straight away; it all seemed very upfront and honest, but when it was checked properly, the one document that was missing from it just so happened to actually prove the property to be 10% smaller than what it was advertised for and what I was then about to purchase it for. This delayed the whole process and they were about to swindle me out of a sum of 5-figures.

3.57% they got from me for their service, but what service?!

Someone advised me of a serive in Germany called "verbrauchenschutze", which is a bit like Watchdog in the UK (i.e. a body set up to secure the rights of the consumer).

I hate Makler as well. To get around them post your own ad in a printed newspaper (will cost you for a short one around 80 EUR - that's cheap in comparison to 2,000 EUR or more) and then wait. Most of the times you will be delighted: private homeowners will call you and offer you an apartment provisionsfrei - of course, you will have to be a bit lucky. Worked for me already twice (Cologne and Frankfurt)!

When my makler didn't do it's job properly I refused to fill it's salad bowl. It whined and whined and scratched at my door for a while and eventually I gave up and paid it 75% of what it was owed. Maybe you can pick holes in the service and refuse to dole out all the money like I did? Not exactly nice, but then, maklers aren't exactly nice, are they?

Glad this topic resurfaced, as I'd intended to post an optimistic update on my situation* for the benefit of those frustrated with Maklers. We did, in the end, find a Provision- and Makler-free flat. It was posted on Immobilien Scout as being 'direkt von Eigentümer', and luckily for us she took a shine to us and gave us the flat even though she had provisionally (no pun intended) offered it to someone else (which sucked for them but was good for us).

Moral of the story: It took us several months of searching and quite a few disappointments, but in the end we got exactly what we wanted and didn't have to flush thousands of euros down the toilet by paying Provision. We even got a brand-new kitchen in the deal which we aren't having to buy! So take heart, all you frustrated flat-seeking folk, and have patience -- it will pay off, literally.

* Note: while I'm a Munich resident, I would reckon my situation and the outcome would be just as likely to occur in other larger cities in Germany.

Even though I managed to get many thousands knocked off the price of the flat for the worng size advertised, I still ended up paying the Makler their full cost (contract was already signed by this point). Unfortunately, a lawyer I was in correspondance with told me recently that they're not going to push for a refund/part-refund of this cost. A bit pissed off about it, but a valuable lesson learned. Just glat I got the flat price negotiated.