Annoyed by estate agent fees

In Berlin you pay between 4.5% and 7.18% or so courtage. It's rather disgusting.

The whole estate agent thing here was a big shock and eye-opener to me. It's unfortunate that it can sometimes be a person's first taste of life in Germany.

We first rented a place, and had an absolute horror story with our first agent. She did a terrible job, and we paid her as hefty fee and didn't even get a cup of coffee at the lease signing. BUT, we did have some small revenge as we told the owner of the house how awful she was and he (he owns many properties) dismissed her and went with another agent. We were glad to at least see that.

We then decided to look at a property to buy. We had the same experience as many others have listed. We seemed a lot more serious about buying than many of the agents did about selling. This always floored me. We would constantly have to badger an agent to show us properties--this I will never understand. Coming from the States where you usually get shown multiple properties in a day, and at least lunch and driven around this all seems just too odd.

We moved from our old place to a new one a year ago (we're still renting). We vowed we would never use an estate-agent again, and this time we found a place from a private person, and we were very happy with the whole transaction. If you look you can find places without an agent, but it can take time, and it's definitely harder.

Paul

Just as a reply to BB and STB - this whole thing of the tenants being the ones who carry the financial cost in the end is utter rubbish. We have two properties in the UK that we rent out and I can guarantee you - the estate agents fees are not built into the rental price. These guys take between 10-12% of your rental income for doing sod-all and you cannot simply raise the rent by that amount, otherwise your property will simply not rent. And as anyone who rents out a property will tell you - it hurts the pocket a hell of a lot to have your rental property linger on the market (unless you're one of the lucky people to not have a mortgage on it anymore )

As for the German market - I also find it preposterous (and against my human rights ) to be forced to pay so much to an agent when you rent or buy. At the moment, we are stuck in a house purely because I cannot accept paying a fortune to a Makler if we were to move. And finding rental properties directly from the owner is bloody difficult - I've been trying for 4 months...

I noticed this provision fee on several pages and I've even signed up with one, just to see what they have to offer, ...though I'm going to avoid that fucker like the plague since I swear they give you the contact's information...and that's it. You deal with the person you are renting from, they (the company) do nothing but hand out his or her information and then rob you. Is this correct? Do they do ANYTHING else? Can you even claim this fee after for taxes?

Topics merged by admin

They do nothing. Maklers are scum. Avoid using them at all costs. It's the biggest scam ever.

ditto

As my attorney said when I asked her why all Maklers lie all the time: "Unlike virtually everything else in Germany, there is no certification necessary to become a Makler. The only qualification is a willingness to lie and cheat whenever possible."

We paid 2 grand to our makler, and all she did was put an ad on the internet and was there when we saw the house and signed the contract. The previous tenant actually did all the work showing us the place, and the owner was the one doing everything when we signed the contract. It makes me sick to this day.

Sometimes you have no choice to use one though, cause it's hard to get a nice apartment in Munich.

And they have the right?...or backing to do this? Is it not possible to say Fuck Em' and not pay? Do they really have legs to stand on for taking you money and really doing nothing?

The owner of the flat has employed their services. If you want the flat, you have to pay the makler.

Sometimes it's even worse. You might find a place on your own, but the owner has already signed a deal with a makler. Often you have to pay them even though they've done truly nothing.

I don't quite get this. I have rented properties in Germany about six times in the last 30 years and I never did it through a Makler. I simply looked in the Immobilien pages of the local newspaper. There are always lots of private offers there; it just takes a bit of time, but eventually we always found something. This is in South Germany, north baden and Franken.

We tried to sell our house privately last year. It was in the local Immobilien section. We had a few calls but then a Makler called to say he had people looking for just such a house. We let him come and from that moment he took over completely. I have to say he worked very hard, and when he finally found a family he was always coming round discussing this or that, and working with the family as well to help them get the finances worked out. We never signed a contract with him and I assumed it was a free service for us but when the time came and we got our money he said he gets Euros 2000. I did not remember ever agreeing to this but I was so glad to get rid out of the whole business I paid it.

This is just another example of unjustifiable extra fees that are levied on people in this country for no apparent reason. If there was a sea change in attitudes from German citizens about this, then maybe something might change, but because they are generally so intimidated by authority it's unlikely that will happen.

Since sellers or landlords don't generally bear the brunt of the Provsionen, what is going to force a change is when they no longer see any use in using Makler.

As in any profession, there are good and bad ones, but Makler can be very useful, especially for the landlord/seller:
– They know the market and can advise the landlord/seller on a realistic rent or selling price. Since the Makler are interested in concluding the deal within a short period of time, they tend to lower the expectations of the landlord/seller.
– They take charge of organizing things, the meetings, sorting of people, which is particularly useful for unexperienced landlords/sellers, or people with little time or not present
– They have a lot of contacts, are able to present solvent renters or buyers, and that's what their clients are interested in

Landlords or sellers that offer their objects without the help of a Makler often add the hypothetical Makler provision to the rent or selling price, so it's not really a better deal for the tenant or buyer. All in all, it is annoying to pay Makler provision, especially if one has to move every few years, but, like other components of the rent, these are expenses of the landlord/seller that are passed on to the tenant or buyer. Unfortunately, Makler have got very dodgy methods of acquiring business, often without a formal contract, but that's another problem.

It is quite strange that a nation of quite tightfisted people (it is the land of Lidl afterall) that they happily(?) fork out money for old rope to Maklers.

Most don't move or buy a home very often. I know a couple that has lived in the same apartment for 38 years.

What would help is a lack of demand for apartments, or more apartments. In the east, where there are empty flats all over the place, renters don't have to pay Makler fees. It's just because of the amount of demand here, that people are willing to pay these ridiculous fees as long as someone finds them a decent place.

Again, most Germans I know don;t pay Makler fees for rented property. They just look in the Immobilien section of the papers. I remember as a student in Freiburg that's the way everyone did it. And when selling my house last year all the Germans I knew advised me to sell it "Privat".
Maybe it;s only in Baden Wuerttemburg but I think using a Makler for rented property is unusual rather than the rule.


Quite true. Most Germans I know are like this. They stay in their homes their whole life.

I've actually had a situation where a makler helped save me money!

When I moved out of my last flat the landlord used a makler to find a new tenant. I wasn't too pleased because I'd always thought they were scum too but it didn't have anything to do with me and he was nice enough while showing my place around to prospective tenants. The makler was present when it came time to do the uebergabe and while the landlord identified several areas where he thought I should have to pay for repairs or extra cleaning, the makler stood up for me and contested each of the landlords points, had the landlord sign the protokoll on the spot and I got my full kaution back. I know I wouldn't have gotten that without him.

Not bad considering he had nothing to gain by it.

I'm surprised that a Makler stood up for you, even though technically, you are his customer because you are paying. However, in this unusual situation, the Makler has actually very little to gain by helping you, but a lot to lose by pissing off the landlord ie. he won't be the one selling his apartment next time. Such an imbalance goes to show how backward the system actually is.

Looks like you might have got lucky and actually found an honest Makler.

Its all down to owners.They get a Makler in have no costs to pay and the Makler brings round potential renters.All they have to do then is make a decision.The Makler has to look at potential renters background, ie. making sure that they can pay the rent.So if you were an owner and wanted to rent knowing if you gave the responability to someone else and all you had to do was sit down and coin in what would you do?Agree with all of you that the costs are expensive but sometimes you can get lucky and get one privately.You do however need to speak the lingo and know the rules and regulations.If you cannot do that then you are going to have to pay.

Exactly (except that owners can't just "coin in"). There are difficult markets for owners (lack of demand) and difficult markets for tenants/buyers (lack of offers), and this creates demand for the services of a Makler. Relocation agencies also work with Makler because it is more efficient for them. So it has nothing to do with "backwardness", but is market driven. The fact that there are regions with plenty of offers without a Makler involved confirms that. The problem is that because of market dynamics there are too many Makler in some regions which makes them use dishonest methods to get their share of the business.

Looking for a house or for a tenant/buyer always means investing money and time (just think of the costs for adds, travels, and it can take months to find what you are looking for). If the buyer of a house doesn't want to pay the commision of a Makler that was hired by the seller, he can ask for a reduction on the purchase price. It's up to the contract partners.

More info about Immobilienmakler (in German)

EDIT: In the case of Arunadasi's post #61, the real estate agent could defend his claim by saying there had been a tacid agreement, based on "schlüssiges/konkludentes Verhalten" (see link).

Sparkasse asks for 7.25% commission on house sales!! Does anyone really pay this or is it negotiable? No wonder the housing market is practically non-existant. I'm sure my local SPK knows sweet nothing about how to sell a house, after all, they all live in rented property ... All you see are a few fading pictures in the window, months old, of perhaps 2 views of the house.

This inability to take a decent photo isn't limited to Spakasse. It never fails to amaze me how many property pages have one picture of the TOILET! Nothing else, just the stinking jax.

Actually I wasn't even his customer as I was the tenant moving out. It was the tenant moving in that was paying him.

I agree that it was unusual for him to stand up for me. I certainly wasn't expecting it but it does show that they're not all scum.

It's negotiable. In fact there is a lot of movement in the estate agent market at the the moment.

The housing market is not "non existent".
Just people don't move as often as they do elsewhere and there is less socio-political opinion in favour of owner-occupancy and less of the unhealthy obcession with the "value of property" that wreaks havoc in the UK and elsewhere.

By the way, I find selling or buying homes much quicker, far simpler, less fraught with hassles and less expensive in Germany than in the UK. IN the UK you HAVE to use a solicitor-- and pay the fees, of course. Private sales are all but non-existent. Then you have this whole "search" thing and an obligatory surveyor from your mortgage lender and then you have to deal with upward and downward chains; and then you have the "completion" date when everybody is sitting on their removal boxes waiitng for a phone call and then you have to rush away into your new home before your new owners come...
in Germany you tend to have to take the risk yourself. It seems far more casual. For instance, when we bought our home the owners gave us the key as soon as we had signed the pre-contract and we were able to go in and out as we liked well before we actually paid for the place. When we came to sell we were just as generous. This is practically unheard of in England.
In Germany the sellers have to ensure that everything is in order as they are responsible for any hidden damages that may arise.

I've also had nothing but bad experiences with Makler. However, I haven't paid them anything myself so far.

The first place I rented, I got my company to pay the Makler's fee as part of the relocation package.

The second place I rented, I found by hanging out my own adverts at a bunch of local supermarkets. Costs nothing but a bit of leg-work.

I have to say after moving out of my company flat and getting my own place, I sincerily miss the US system of walking into an apartment office, signing a contract, giving them a few hundred dollars for a security deposit and moving into an apartment with a kitchen, light fixtures, and air conditioning a few days later.. Paying 1200 euros to a friggen guy who did about 1 hours works makes me think I need to get out of the schiffmakler racket and into real estate...

Hey Admin, shouldn't this thread be merged with the "Beware of ticks" thread?

You might get a cup of coffee at the signing (we didn't). That's an expensive cup of java!

Someone mentioned that Germans don't move very often and they will avoid the Markler fee like the plague if possible--both true.

They also won't pay what expats will fork out on occsaion.

We went and looked at a house when we first got here. I'm American, my wife is German. Found a nice place, rent 2200 euros a month. Place was nice, but not THAT nice.

We looked around a bit, and my wife, being typical German, tells it like it is. "It's not worth 2200 euros. No German would pay you that much." Guy points at me and says, "But your husband gets LQA (living quarters allowance--US govt housing money), what do you care?"

Trouble is I don't get LQA, I'm not military or Government. Landlord gets sniffy, and says, "I'll just wait for an American to rent it."

Goodbye, good riddance.

The housing market can be a double-edged sword. I've heard a lot of Germans complain (with good reason) that US service members will pay anything for a place to rent--queers the pitch a bit for the locals.

Paul

Sounds like Berlin, minus the even bothering to talk anyone into taking the place. Buyers and renters have little choice but to play along with these criminals. There is one Makler/developer here, I've forgotten the name but they do a bit of business in Mitte and P'Berg gutting old buildings, who pretends to act as an exclusive service agent to match prospective buyers (all UK/US with a smattering of the "better" Russians) up to apartments THEY choose to sell to them. Buyers can't even look at a single building until they hand over all their personal, educational, and ethnic and financial information (no privacy guaranteed) and their "business group" has had a chance to crunch your numbers. They also (allegedly) seem to do illegal background checks on potential buyers, but I have no proof of that. Sad.

Maybe it sounds like Berlin in some exclusive areas, but at least you have a choice there. There are plenty of super cheap, and available apartments in Berlin without makler fees. In Munich, everywhere is expensive, there is no availability and you almost always have to pay a Makler.

I see it has been over two days since someone added to this thread.

Therefore, in the interests of keeping this most-important-of-topics open, I would like to state the following:

Makler = Scum

Message ends.



K

This is exactly the problem. By engaging an agent, an owner may lose a few potential buyers/renters who refuse to pay makler fees but that's about the only negative. This produces the strange outcome that the agent is paid by the buyer/renter but is only responsible to the person who hired them - the seller, who, at the risk of repeating, doesn't give a shit because s/he's not paying them.

When I moved to Toytownland from Canada I rented my apartment out. In Canada the seller pays the agents' commission for both selling and renting out. I thus thought long and hard before engaging an agent (family friend who is an exception to the rule) and made sure I got my money's worth and also factored the cost into my decision (NOT by passing this on to the renter because the rental price is dictated largely by market forces and competition - not by what I decide to sell/rent for).

And I agree with the general tenor of the posts here - the agent's are mostly non-existent and it's like pulling teeth to get them to do their job, i.e. unlock a door, after 5 or 6 pm. In our experience, the agent we eventually had to fork over a load of cash to did little more than unlock the door and make the initial posting on scout24. They provided us with no information that we couldn't glean from looking at the place, didn't know the sizes of the rooms or whether it even had a cellar/cave and then didn't know which one.

In short - fkn useless.