Sehr ungeehrte GDL, (strong language warning)

Depends on what kind of room ye want.

Oh boys a dear, why not just plough ahead and try to contribute something to the country/society you have chosen to live in?
BD's post when seen from the "outburst" point of view was fine and entertaining. Then it was dragged down to the level
of analytical shite-sifting which is of no benefit whatsoever to those visiting this forum. If you want discussion of the type this
thread has degenerated into, head into town, meet up, discuss, kick the blue shite out of each other or in Conq's case - get a soapbox
and head to the Fischbrunnen. It works in Hyde Park.
Have a nice day travelling around the city of Munich - if you can. It's all part and parcel of the country you chose to live in.

I too can not believe union workers want more moneys and work less per week. Like it or not if you asked the auslander if they want more moneys. I think they would said no because all they want is to have a job that can provide food to put on a table and not spending money on expensive or luxury items like cars, high tech electronics. I had seen some german caught spending their time on vacation using unemployment money and seeing report of german sitting around at home unemploy for 20 plus year. The system is being abuse by a lot of german people. The goverment need to make a minium wages to all companies. I know the CDU party does not support minium wages.

The union need to understand that the more they goes on strike thinking that the companies would give in. Sometine in the future it will back fire because companies start thinking about out source like in Asia or poor country which people will do the same work with better or same quality but less paid.

You really know how to get to the root of the problem, don't you?
Do I detect delusions of adequacy?

Haha, Sesame Street flashback, some of these auslanders are not like the others, which one can you tell me now?

Of course the magic juice will run out ... but (like the EU constitution) it's just flat-out wrong to let the life failures who fall into politics unilaterally impose half-baked crap on taxpayers without their consent.

In the U.S. you can encrust your entire house with solar panels and watch the meter spin backward ... but you don't regressively tax the poor working class to do so!

I think no matter if there are strikes or not if the private company can make MORE profit by moving somewhere else they will do it no matter what...
Its the system's fault and not strikers fault.

Of course its unpleasant for the rest of the people when trains etc strike.

I just see that western private jobs are going to hell which will also lead to public jobs going to hell, so if they can get something better even for a while by striking i m with them...

Ah, but you can't outsource certain jobs. Such as driving trains (GdL), picking up the trash (Ver.Di), distributing mail (GNBZ) and so on. And the unions in these fields are usually the one who go on strikes.

Are you graduating high school next year? Please explain how to move a national public transportation system offshore. Has everyone been drinking stupid juice this weekend?

woof.

Never said anything about moving a public transportation system etc.

I just said that if a private company (e.g. the one you mentioned that you work for, or the one I might be working for tomorrow) can make more profit somewhere else they will move.

Even if there was not a strike in the world and everything in the public sector worked perfectly, if the private company does its math and sees that by moving somewhere else it will be better for their profits they ll do it.

From what i see I have a pessimistic view on economy. As a future employee (of private companies always) i really think my future will be quite difficult .

Thats why I said I support any moves (strikes etc) if the people can get something better while they still can.

From an engineering perspective, this is an interesting problem. UAVs, for example, are remotely piloted. The safety risks for extrapolating this to remote operation of trams or high-speed trains are significant; but I recall there's some serious research regards developing unmanned passenger aircraft. You may not be able to move the infrastructure offshore, but with remote piloting or remote operation, offshoring the operators isn't all that far away.


Just stupid-saft schorle

Looks like they have reached some sort of agreement over the weekend so there won't be strikes on Monday.

Apparently so, however there will still be transit disruptions as DB can't run the normal schedule on such short notice. ZDF was reporting that up to half of long distance trains will still be canceled tomorrow, while local trains (including S-Bahn) will likely be in pretty good shape.

GabIng, if it were that simple, every possible job would have fallen victim to labor arbitrage. It's not that simple, and is highly dependent upon a large number of factors, one being getting the right people for the job. Also, salaries can and do rise in less expensive locations, often in line with productivity.

Your future may or may not be difficult- there are too many variables at play to assume that. As for supporting the strikes, if they artificially raise your cost of living (and everyone else's) I fail to see what is beneficial about that.

What happened to all BadDoggie's "fuck you"s in the initial post?
I thought it made it more colourful and expressive

hey, why do you call people from Romania, mooks? are you better then them? You think you are funny making stupid observations about other nationalities, ha?

Exactly what observations did I make about other nationalities? I call anyone about whom I happen to be making a lightly disparaging remark a "mook". It's a New York City work. Deal with it. I named Romania because not only is it not fair to keep picking on just Bangalore, Bucharest is just the latest city on the cheap labour outsourcing list. My company opened a center in Romania for just this reason. I didn't call them "fuckwits" because they -- unlike their counterparts in our center in the subcontinent -- are actually quite competent. You think I should be friendly when describing a stranger who may have designs on my job?

You're making it very tempting to concede a common generalisation about people in former communist countries and their hotheadedness.

HydroSkater: I think it was toned down by a mod when the story moved to the front page.

woof.

You are right its not "that" simple and that's why I hope I might get a descent job for (hopefully) large periods of my life... At least in my sector that requires graduate studies etc and its not easy to find good employees everywhere.

But its not just me and everyday I see examples of companies moving, firing people in order to increase profit etc. Thats why I am worried, because although not "that " easy it happens and it happens more and more often.

And you know, I grew up thinking that having a job is a basic human right...But these days from what I see around me, having a job can be a matter of luck...And believe me this is one of the worst things I can think of.

As for strikes: in general there are numerous other things that raise our cost of living (oil price etc) and i really think that a strikes' contribution to it is minor...

It IS quite simple.

Are the men and women that working day in, day out, providing us with services, worth less? Or more?

the strikers are greedy bastards. i went to buy geetar strings on saturday and the little mom and pop music shop was closed with a sign explaining it was due to the strike. how sad to see such businesses crippled by the striking train drivers. the streets were practically empty. i'd love to go out and spend some money to help this crippled economy, but noooooo

its inconceivable that the transportation service in a city with 20% unemployment could be allowed to strike and shut down all the ubahns. they should outsource every one of the dummkopfs who're spoiling everyone's week!

You favour an expansion of the Beamte system?
You think there is a ground swell of opinion to change the general law and/or constitution on this issue?
What role do you think the issue of unemployment plays in the GDL or VERDI strikes in the short, medium and long term?
How should the work performed by GDL or VERDI members be outsourced and what would the consequences of that be?

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that he says that.

Hopefully, yes. Even the French generally agree that their system is unsustainable and most realise that someone has to earn the money to pay these bastards, essentially they're a dead weight around the economy, even though train drivers, health professionals, police, fire, etc. obviously provide essential services they don't grow the economy.

With some luck these workshy bastards would realise they're lucky just to be in employment, perhaps even accept they're privileged to have somewhat protected employment, and a good deal more fortunate than many.

Obviously you can't outsource a train driver or a fireman but it would be nice to knock the unions down from their perches. The vast majority of public service jobs are lower skill and that means lower pay whichever way you argue it. Just because you join a union doesn't make you immune from the forces of supply and demand and them using the rest of us as pawns in their dispute is fucking lame.

Someone taking home EUR 1300 or so a month for providing a public sservice should be "gratefull" they aren't on Hartz IV?
And Zumwinkel is laughing all the way to the bank.

When you take emotion out of the argument you're still left with the simple arithmetic that shows many thousands of people getting a modest raise has a far more damaging effect than paying the boss a million or two more. Sad but true. Wouldn't the country be a better place if every police, fire, ambulance worker, every nurse, every teacher, every train driver was paid 3000 euro a month, picking a sum out of the air? Actually, no it wouldn't.

When low paid public employees get EUR 5o or whatever a mont more, what are they going to do with it?
Smuggle it out to Liechenstein or put it immedietley in to the (domestic) economy?

We can take the emotion out of it.
Bit that applies to both sides of course and would preclude such terms as "fuck you!" or "workshy.

Perhaps your disappointment is due to the erroneous assumption that "having a job is a basic human right". No non-Communist society guarantees employment, and we alll know how Communism worked out for those who have "guarantees of a job".
As for getting a job, yes, a certain amount of individual preparation and, often, luck, plays into it, but you cannot blame all difficulties on outsourcing and productivity improvements (after all the latter drives pay raises!). There are a lot of variables at work, and often public policy, whether intentionally or not, discourages employment.

If you think that large pay raises as a result of caving in to strikes don't have a greater effect on inflation, you need to wake up- labor costs are the largest expense of the vast majority of businesses.


You never say, despite being asked to do so, exactly how much they should make. Will you continue to feel that they are underpaid if they get a 5% raise? It comes down to specific numbers, since salaries must be budgeted. You can tie yourself in philosophical knots as much as you want- those who actually have to balance budgets are concerned with the actual numbers. Judging from previous rhetoric, I doubt you will be able to answer this. Should everyone pay higher taxes so that raises you deem satisfactory are paid to people with secure employment?

You cant move the public transport, but the support for the public transport can be moved/outsourced. For Ex: I know that there's a call centre in India which supports the public transport (railways) in UK. Many of the calls are delegated to India and they have some 'knowledge source' and maps to assist the people calling 'em. Sometimes, its surprising to see these kind of services being outsourced. Also, some lazy buggers are outsourcing their university/college/school projects or home work. hmm..schlecht.

Also, I believe in Charles Darwin's "Survival Of The Fittest" theory. Its simple intuition, anyways. If you have the potential and skills, you win over others who are less competent.

And collective bargaining through unions can only increase the lot of the low skill worker so far. Many creatures in nature gather into large herds for extra security and while this may protect them from the odd predator it does nothing to stop the entire herd getting wiped out when there's a drought.

Except -- to re-address an earlier point -- the workers aren't satisfied with just one union and now demand that DB negotiate with each of three unions. And when splinter members of those unions decide to form their own collective, they'll also demand separate negotiation. Lather, rinse, repeat ad absurbium and then DB has to fully negotiate with each single person. Collective bargaining laws require DB to negotiate with a representative union but these workers aren't satisfied with just the one union. I have no problem with their dissatisfaction nor with their desire to seek better representation, but at the end of the day, the workers' inability to agree on a representative voice should in no way oblige DB to deal with their mess. If Union B is better than Union A, then the majority of workers should migrate to that Union and that's who DB would negotiate with. As it stands we have increasingly splintering factions demanding equal importance.

woof.

BD, yes, in theory there could be then demands for 101 unions at DB, but that isn't going to happen.
What DB wants is a tame "company union" that has a monopoly on employee representation.

Workers can move between unions.
In future the GDL may prove an attractive competitor to Transnet which is one of the major reasons that Transnet was so oppsed to the GDL's strike.

Ah... yes... Where's Thatcher when you need her...

When you strip away the details, the root cause of DB's problems is to be found at the top, with the state. Continuing state ownership ensures that DB, or in fact any state company, can not act in its own best business interests. All sorts of non-business (social and political) concerns are pressed on the company, where they don't belong.

In the given case, any sound SWOT analysis would have told you that a restricted supply of certain specialists would pose a long-term threat of collective extortion. DB should have been sponsoring German-language training of east European train pilots for years, by now, to ameliorate the supply restriction. But I'm sure politicians would have slapped down any manager with that idea, provided any DB manager even had it.

Welcome to Germany.


That's not so cut and dry, imho. Though I'm tempted to go to the extreme sometimes too, just to get the point across.


Aren't Porter's 5 forces or a PEST analysis is more relevant to your argument here?

Could be. SWOT was in the snapshot I was taught at the time, and, as they predicted, by now I've forgotten 80% of the material anyway.

But, my point is that I have doubts that any such academically-based analysis was effectively performed. Especially in the realm of labour relations, politically appointed managers would suffer from group-think here and be blind to the range of possibilities.