Sehr ungeehrte GDL, (strong language warning)

They're at it again.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Google and read anything you care to find on the "Dublin Lockout 1913".
You'll find the equivalent of the Conq's, Gideons, Skaters and Ricks of today.
The equivalent was just as greedy and money-grabbing as the aforementioned.
They're all dead now.

You'll find the equivalent of strikers.
They struck and fought to ease the the plight of the poor and the exploited.
They're dead too but their spirit is still alive!

But then again, if you are not happy with your work situation and salary, why not look for another job like the rest of us have to do???
There are people in Munich earning much less than 1300€ but they don't all go striking!

Wankers!

garibaldi, MT, and co. are having a seance!

Funny how I am deemed "greedy". Last I looked, according to this Baldi bloke, I am "an unemployed foreign guest worker"!

They can compete on private roads as well, much as is the case with private rail infrastructure.


Can't imagine how a government school could possibly be deemed "profitable" or "unprofitable". Subsidies cost money- everyone's money.

I think it is possible to learn fom the past.
And I don't think the thatcher model of labour relations or privitisation of the railways a la UK is the way forward.

There is the notion of building more private roads but that is usually quite specific cases, not a general network.
Schools cost money. It might be cheaper to close them in villages and have children to commute to a central school.
but schools play a part in the community. Perhaps it is better to keep some schools open even thought it costs more that way.
And the same applies to any public good.

I wish I knew what the deal actually is. Both sides agreed an 11% payrise in January, oder? But, there's something else I don't know about that DB want to do but GDL are dead against (otherwise, why continue striking?). It undoubtedly involves selling off something... which in my book is the thin end of the wedge. We saw what Beeching did in the UK, and that was the point of the wedge that eventually turned the UK into the place we don't want to live in anymore.

I think its probably too pessimistic to say that software companies aren't hiring in the West anymore

And to turn part of your own argument back on yourself - isn't that your own fault for choosing such a trade rather than one that can't be outsourced

Unless of course, you want a nation where a small group of 'politicians' flog off on the cheap what the taxpayers have been paying for for years to their chums, screw the whole thing up and force everybody into the traps so that you end up with the brains leaving in droves to get ahead and the ageing stayers waking up one day to a nation of pikeys and chavs and lawlessness, second world immigrants taking the blue collar jobs, third world immigrants taking the service jobs, and the rest outsourced. State of The Nation makes me want to weep sometimes, and I blame THAT woman first and foremost for creating The New World of Shithole UK.

WOOOOOOOF!

Such decisions are made on a case-by-case basis, and keep in mind that "more costs" add up. Think about that when you demand more social spending and much higher salaries for unskilled public sector workers. Money for public goods is finite.

You can make decisions on a purely case by case basis or you can establish general policies on it.
Higher pay for public sector employyees might mean that imperalist jaunts in Afghanistan can't be financed.

Dream on, Marxists. There is always debt financing...(whose damage would be exacerbated by high public sector pay).

Sorry, MT, even Germany has to contribute to the mission in Afghanistan...

Money for public sector goods is finite... if it benefits ordinary people.

but there's always debt financing... if it benefits the military.

If funding is finite (which is debateable) and priorities have to be made, why is a war in Afghanistan more important that higher public sector pay?
Though it is worth noting that the GDL strike looming at DB is NOT about pay in itself but the right of railway workers to free association.

Another thread that was inclusive to start with, killed by yet another MT v Conq debate.

Pick up a phone guys, or get a room.

Sorry Von, I was trying to stick to the issues around the GDL strike and will try and do so.
I want inclusive threads not a boring one on one.

Go on then MT. In a nutshell, after DB and GDL agreed on the payrise, exactly what is the continuation of the strike about?

This from wires:

They are still haggling over a so-called "basic wage contract," which would set out how wage deals Deutsche Bahn had agreed with other unions fitted in with the GDL accord.

Deutsche Bahn had reached separate deals with two other unions, Transnet and GDBA. It was one of the GDL's core demands that it have its own agreement.

Deutsche Bahn has said it wants to keep its employees under the aegis of a sector-wide agreement.
------
Having the right to negotiate a contract separately is only fair.

Like it or not, investors aren't going to buy government bonds to finance a sharp increase in social spending- at least not at a price a government would want to sell at. Money is finite for all public goods- and that includes defense spending.


It's not a binary decision, rather a multifaceted one. The US-German alliance via NATO actually benefits Germany far more economically than the costs of German participation in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is also a peacekeeping and humanitarian mission- even you would agree the Afghani people are much better off than they were during Taliban rule.

Furthermore, the cost of public sector pay dwarfs spending on the Afghanistan mission. The question is how much public sector pay will rise, and you haven't said how much you think it should rise.

But I was under the impression that they had come to an agreement on the agreement and on 11% back in January?

Guess not.

Funny. You know I've got this bad feeling that GDL are only half the bloody problem. We needs a bit of Nosher Powell diplomacy, methinks.

Problem should solve itself, as far as I can tell, if they open up the inter-city transport market to competition. Prices will drop and salaries would go up (at the expense of the preposterous profits DB is making).

The pay deal is agreed.
The current dispite is about freedom of association

Transnet and GDBA got what they said to their members was the best deal possible.
But GDL held out and got a better deal.

DB wants to deal with ONE negotiating bloc and have ONE deal on pay.

GDL can only really continue to have a meaningful existence if it remains separate.
Remaining a separate is the only way it could fulfil a possible future role as a more militant union than Transnet which is regarded by DB emplyees I know as a bit of a poodle.

What I unsderstand is law in the US, many employers have sought in the UK and has been fairly common in Germany is that employers have ONE union to deal with.
The strike is essentially about the right of workers to organise their own representitives.

What? Just like they did in the UK, Genie?

QUOTE(Punchbear @ Mar 7 2008, 2:12 pm) *
This should be translated into German and projected on the Rathaus.

Or better yet posted at the arbeitsamt!!!

Some people search everyday for a job and due to lanaguage skill issues and low experience in specific fields jobs are passed by!!! But yet these whining bastards...

@MT,

Bit weird them thinking that 'Divide and Conquer' don't apply to them, innit? Nosher would turn round and say, WHOY! You! Transnet, you right pillocks, and You! GDBA, you bunch of berks, GDL got the bottle and the nounce. Yer one negotiatin' bloc, and GDL's in charge. Right? Sorted! Get on with in and stop fuckin' up the punters!"

Couldn't agree more w/ the first post. Screw these lazy unions. This country is starting to turn into France and Italy with a bunch of whiney socialists who want more money for less work. The sad thing is these people cant be fired which they should be. Dont wanna work, then fine, Germany's huge unemployment rate should meanm plenty want to. Get rid of the dead weight and get people willing to do a job.

Sirchirol I totally agree with you. Why don't the EC step in and say hey!! Germany has to much unemployment issues as it is and if we take out the union workers and replace them with the unemployed than union will no longer exist!!! Issue solved and of course new workers must sign contract not join union!!!

I'd feel safer riding in an ICE train at 300+ per knowing the driver was getting a decent wage, had adequate rest between shifts, wasn't compelled to work overtime to make ends meet, and had other basic job rights we'd expect for people with the lives of up to a thousand or more people in the train depending on him to get to the destination safely. Yeah, go hire some scabs to replace them if that's what you're getting at. You'll see the chaos that results.

DB already offers reasonable prices on inter city journeys.
The turn up and go fare Munich to Leipzig is EUR 84, whereas a friend said yesterday that Lufthansa charges EUR 400 to fly.

It will be interesting to see how, if any, competition occurs on inter city routes.

not everyone unemployed is a scab!!! If you are stating that if you not a union worker than your a scab than I feel sorry for your ignorance!@!!! Yes, there is a lot of people that are not up to the par for a train driver but also there are many Doctor's that can drive a car nor or less a train!!! So... that is not really a good excuse for unions and the actions they pull upon the public and also themselves!!!

For the REAL slow boys and girls who have just joined us:

Workers have a right to join a union, they have the right to strike.
The status of public employees who DON'T have the right to strike exists, it is called Beamte.
The proponents of neo liberal economics have been ranting agaisnt Beamte status for years, but now they object to public sector strikes.
The strikers can not all be sacked ad replaced with the unemployed.
Even if that was the case, we would be at the same position again in a few years time at most.

ducky:
Read my post again - that's not what I'm saying. A scab is someone hired to replace a striking worker.

MonksTown since you may know the answer to the issue at hand please explain your way of thoughts of the strikes ending and should they occur?

My apologizes silty!!!

The issue is not one of money.
It is about image or reputation.

Back when it was about money, the federal government who own 100% of DB did not have the stomach for a full on Thcherite fight and breaking of the GDL union.
So as I predicted whilst they denied it, the government banged their heads and forced a pay deal which was better than DB had said they could afford and better than Transnet said was the best deal for their members. And there is the problem: DB and their pet dog union Transnet were caught out lying.

X months later, whether right or wrong, public opinion has swung even more in favour of "the little guy" so I doubt the governmet will want to break the GDL union now.

The only way out I see is some kind of compromise on the contract regarding negotiations and the government encouraging Herr Mehdorn to retire becasuse he has Föhn Sickness.

Mehdorn and Suck-All should just do a Reagan with GDL and sack the lot. That would shake things up and enable a fresh new start to be made.

Not the shiniest button on a train drivers uniform are you Rick?

Nothing like a bit of misrepresentation at 11pm on a boring Friday.

They do. I don't argue this point.

It's how they act, and how they function just barely within the law. A "Warnstreik" was supposed to be a method to show employers that the unionised labor really were organised enough to strike. It is now a method to avoid government intervention by running a "temporary" strike over a prolonged period, thus keeping out the safety controls available to the government to protect the entire country which it has in exchange for allowing strikes to begin with. This is abuse.

Furthermore, the unions make outrageous demands for more at times when everyone else is faced with the prospect and choice of "less or much less", examples of which I gave in the initial post. And before they've won one battle they're already planning for the next with even more outrageous demands, an example of which I also gave.

The knock-on effects of these these union actions are grave. I explained this as well. Their short-term gains are a huge long-term loss for the country, and in the end, they're hurting themselves. I have no problem with that were it restricted to them, but they're hurtig the rest of us, too. Where the fuck do they think the money for their pay and pension is going to come from if the rest of us aren't fucking earning because our companies won't hire domestically and actively pursue removal to a different country or continent?

The jobs of the GDL members will be there come hell or high water because, as I pointed out, their jobs can't be outsourced. The jobs of the people who they serve -- those who they drive to work and back home every day -- are leaving Germany. Without us there's no longer a need for them. So while their jobs can't be outsourced, those jobs only exist as long as other people who earn even more need their services.

woof.

The status of public employees who DON'T have the right to strike exists, it is called Beamte.
The proponents of neo liberal economics have been ranting agaisnt Beamte status for years, but now they object to public sector strikes.
The strikers can not all be sacked ad replaced with the unemployed.
Even if that was the case, we would be at the same position again in a few years time at most.

When they struck duting the summer people said they shouldn't ruin peoples holidays ans should strike during the normal working week.
When they struck during the normal working week people said they shouldn't ruin peoples' commute and should strike over the holidays.
When they struck over the hoidays...

A LOT of people have een facing falling real wages over the last few years in Germany.
The GDL did something about it. Fair play to them.

Yay for postings typed in rage!
They often exaggerate and falsify arguments, hence tend to solve complex issues with simple accusations. The first post undoubtly addresses circumstances nobody approves of, however it offers no basis for a serious debate. I'm with all who are angered because of the strikes -I'm on the brink of bringing total destruction to every public transportion vehicle being late, myself - yet I'd guess that each one of those angered ppl would be off on the streets striking, if they had jobs with wages adjusted to the life in 1995, since living costs almost doubled after the euro.
Yes, even if there are ones without any job at all - but why the fuck should that be the cause I've got no right to stand up when I don't get paid properly?
So I've got no right to complain about rotten food, because there are others who have no food at all - Sorry, I don't think it's that easy.

Get it straight. They aren't striking, they're running "Warnstreike" in order to avoid government intervention. They aren't just walking out, they're making it as painful as possible and they're not just hitting their employer but the rest of us as well for a lot longer period than necessary or warranted.

Like me? I got stuck with two "Null-Runde" as my company was going through the shit. Then there was a third year which was our first year in the new corporation, that after my (Betriebsrat-controlled) wage was reduced because I was among the top producers instead of the bottom). I finally got a wage increase of less than 2%, not enough to cover the past year's inflation much less that of the past four years.

Fair play FUCK! They're doing anything but playing fair. They have no qualms about collateral damage. This abuse of the right to strike and the methods they employ are inexcusable.

woof.

BD, my god, the world must be coming to an end.

I completely agree with you.

I guess that in my world (and 99.9% of the rest of the world) I was taught the following:

You work, you get paid.
You don't work, you don't get paid.

You strike = You don't work = You don't get paid.

That being said, this stuff MT brought up earlier about the buying a ticket - I bought a right to use public transport - not a guarantee that it would be available - I disagree.

You see, if I were to say ok, I'm paying you x amount per day to drive me to work and home every day - and you don't drive me - then I don't pay you. If I pre-pay, similarly, I expect a refund for those days you were unable/unwilling to provide that service for which you were paid. This is how a monthly ticket works - Period. I prepaid for the 10 days that I'm now unable to travel. At the very least, a refund should be provided for those days. (I would like to see a class action lawsuit for public endangerment as well... but those following the post in the Berlin chat already know that...)

Similarly, I don't get the sense of "entitlement" that these folks seem to think that they have. Yeah, they're in a union. But, it's a cultural thing. Seriously. What other country do you know of that gives raises to people that aren't working - aren't performing - instead of letting them go? It just simply amazes me that people here think they're "entitled" to unemployment benefits; "entitled" to less working hours; and "entitled" to bitch and moan about foreigners who come in and are paying taxes up the ying-yang so that they can have their so called "entitlements" - because the majority of the population simply believes they're "entitled" instead of getting the concept stated above.

If you want a higher paying job, get an education, and go out and get one. Otherwise, realize that you don't go into lower education teaching, law enforcement, bus driving, or most other things that are public services (Garbage collecting, janitorial, food prep)- but that the average person with a high school degree can do - and expect a high rate of pay. Face it - they're considered "service industry".

MT, I agree with some of your high ideals - but I'm also going to point out that communism didn't work. I lived in Russia for a year - and I have seen first hand. When everyone gets paid the same amount - regardless of how much they perform, regardless of education, eventually, they all realize it doesn't matter and just stop working -- and simply expect handouts that they feel they're entitled to. Eventually, the economy collapses (think the 1990's in Russia) and the ones willing to work harder then smarter wind up making money once again. 5000 years hasn't changed it.

I noticed all the strong wording from the original post has now been replaced by one bold faced strong word at the beginning... what's up with that?

Wasn't me. Any changes have pissed me off so much I'm going to have to write a new thread full of "FUCK YOU"s.

woof.

Conq and MT. Any chance of the relentless internet dead-arming finishing soon? So much so, that I'm just short of making a intendent poll, to empirically ascertain the readability/relevance/pure-thread-hoffing-irritation/popularity of your ncessant intragoatcock-bashing that the rest of us are forced to read/skim-through-in-the-vaguest-of-hopes-that-one-of-you-stubborn-incalcitrant-ne'er-backdowners-will-get-sick-of-the-sound-of-your-own-typin??" in an otherwise interesting thread?

Seriously, get a room or a new thread. The sound of Conqs answering questions with questions vs. the sound of MTs diammetrically-opposed-to-whaddevah-he-says principles is getting very old very quickly. Am I alone in thinking this? How many people haven't posted in this thread because all they saw was cockbashing? The initial post was damn smart and worthy of a discussion that wouldn't be hogged by TTs unelected Odd Couple.

I'm going back to seeing how many pygmy cucumbers I can put in my mouth without "insert random_thing_here_for_entertainment". New thread. Conq vs. MT- Cagefight, subscription only so that their argumentative meanderings about economics can actually make someone some money.

Punchbear, it is possible to carry on multiple discussions in a single thread, right?

I wonder how much overtime results from other train drivers calling in sick?

I like how there is all this talk about a decent wage yet no one can say what that wage is.

Personally, I just want to see the labor issues resolved with an agreement between both sides. Neither will get exactly what they want anyway.


Since, as you say, prices are reasonable on intercity trips, why in the world do you inisist upon regulating that "turn up and go" fare?

The level of competition on intercity routes may well depend, among other things, on the cost of access to the network.