Bombing of Dresden - Should the Queen apologise?

duh??? just run those facts past me again for my reference.

lets not forget it was politcaly and socialy acceptable to bomb people those days... appeasement did suck but was all we could do in 38... and the yanks helped but were not the deceiding factor in the war, that was an 18 year old sailor who got hold of an enigma machine from a sinking u-boot and the poles who bought the original over in 39...

as for history being written by the winners, whats with all this revisionist stuff going on now. bad britain bombed dresden? tough shit, pandoras box etc.

He who sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind...

Which is true, and I accept that at the time we did what we thought was best, but with the benefit of hindsight I would say that the area bombing campaign was not the way to go...

I am an American and that is why I said the above. So please leave me out of the stupid American category influenced by Hollywood.

What can I say to that except 'Cobblers'. By the time the USA made a meaningful contribution to the war in the West Blitzkrieg was long since over and the Russians were well and truly on the march. The USA contributed massively to winning the war, but like it or not, Russia would have won it on her own...though of course the biggest help to us was Hitler - had he not meddled in things Germany would have had a very good chance indeed.
And as for slating appeasement, what were we going to do?? Go to war in 1938? We would have been wiped out in minutes. Our armaments programme was only really coming online in 1939.
A few of the people commenting above could really do with reading some decent history books before commenting. Interestingly enough there's a new book out on the bombing of Dresden - I resisted the purchase for today, but it does look like a good read, and, for the record, concludes that the attack was justifiable - an opinion I find hard to reconcile, but I'll hold fire until I've read it.

Oh well, several short answers will be just as good

Hear hear

bear with me, as my boss took us to Augustiner for lunch…

I would like to know what that book was Jimbo, as I would like to understand more about the issue. I was at a German wedding this July, and was one of 2 Americans/non-Germans there (one of us (not me) spoke fluent German). One very popular topic of conversation (during the after wedding champagne, and then coffee & cake, then pre-reception drinks, as well as the reception and late evening drinks…..) was the bombing of Dresden. Even the groom (32 years old) was very much fired up about it being, in his opinion, not only unnecessary in general, but an unnecessary and evil display of power by the Allies, as the bombing provided no military advantages whatsoever. I wish I had countered with (had I known what he’d said at the time) that the Jews probably had at a minimum a similar impression of the Reich’s efforts….

Setting aside the specifics of who did what to whom and when 60 years ago, what I still find shocking is the church tax (sure, yes, let me register my religion in a country most known for using it to disadvantage), the almost (if not complete) belief in “the rule� or “the law� is for the best regardless of whether it makes sense, and most of all the rampant racial discrimination that is apparently acceptable even in the German social circles I’ve been exposed to. Some days, and I will just say some as I have met a lot of wonderful Germans in my handful of months here, I find it hard to believe that Germany really learned from its mistakes. Make it law, and they will follow….

It's this one here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...4355785-2591860
I may have to go back over the road and buy it now...

500,000 dead Americans (388,000 Brits) does not tend to lend credence that the war was almost over by the time we got there. Generalizations are best left to making jokes, not talking about war.

Jan 26, 1942 - First American forces arrive in Great Britain.
July 9, 1942 - Germans begin a drive toward Stalingrad in the USSR.
Feb 2, 1943 - Germans surrender at Stalingrad in the first big defeat of Hitler's armies.
July 22, 1943 - Americans capture Palermo, Sicily.
Aug 23, 1943 - Soviet troops recapture Kharkov.
Aug 15, 1944 - Operation Dragoon begins (the Allied invasion of Southern France).
Jan 16, 1945 - U.S. 1st and 3rd Armies link up after a month long separation during the Battle of the Bulge.
Jan 17, 1945 - Soviet troops capture Warsaw.
Feb 13/14, 1945 - Dresden is destroyed by a firestorm after Allied bombing raids.
Aug 6, 1945 - First atomic bomb dropped, on Hiroshima, Japan.
Aug 8, 1945 - Soviets declares war on Japan and invade Manchuria.

Doesn't look like the Russians were winning either before the Americans got there. It took nearly a year of Americans fighting along side of the allied forces to do the needed damage. The Soviets did however follow Americas success with a shameless landgrab ploy!

As both Germany and Japan had a "fight to the death" attitude, the bombing of anywhere in Germany and the bombing of Japan was not only justified, but most probably saved allied lives. 55 million people died in WWII. It could of been 70mil. (The Soviet death toll could be 10s of millions more, but they won't tell as most were due to Stalin.)

The bombing of Bagdad and Iraq on the other hand was completely illegal and Bush is to blame for that. He should be impeached and tried for high crimes while in office as preemption should never be tolerated or justified.

Not one member of the Allied Forces could have done it alone, but without America, it wouldn't of happened either.

thanks jimbo i may buy this when i'm back in blighty for chrimbo...
interesting review..

"This book is a detailed account of the bombing of Dresden by the RAF and the USAAF on February 13-14th 1945"

i forgot to mention that but it's good to know that the yanks practiced their nice stratigic bombings in dresden.

there is another book called "der brandt" which is written from a slightly revisionist german perspective, it gats way to romantic and personal for a real historicaly relevant piece of writting, but the first few chapters are an interesting review of the descisions made. but this book also presents the allies, and especialy the raf as evil bombers and the laments the loss of cute and cuddley buildings.

You could read it on the U-Bahn Gideon, that will stop them reading over your shoulder.

I saw that book today in the Hugendubel English Bookshop. Almost bought it in fact, because of this thread.

Interesting that eurovol mentions the link up of us armed forces after battle of the Bulge. You forgot that one section of the US armed forces ran off and Eisenhower put Montgomery in charge of the whole us division. After Montgomery took charge then they defeated the German advance and the two armies linked up.
Wouldnt have happened without the Brits leadership! We could have been pushed back into the channel

as an Englishmen I have to say that the Battle of the Bulge was won not by us British, but by a combination of the sheer guts and will to fight of the US troops in the Bulge particularly but not only at Bastogne, the devastating power of US air support and the ability of General Patton's Third Army to turn sideways and charge North to attack the Bulge in appalling weather conditions

It's been 60 years, canaryman. Montgomery doesn't have to be the figurehead hero anymore. Montgomery's utter refusal to move despite Ultra intelligence let the enemy retreat and dig in. His petty feuds with Bradley and Patton didn't help matters. During the initial invasion of Italy, Monty sat on the Sicilian beach for five days. Patton may well have been a glory-seeker, but Monty demanded attention whether he did anything or not.

On December 19, 1944, the 101st was surrounded in Bastogne and McAuliffe sent his famous "Nuts" reply to the Nazi surrender demand. A day later Patton turned his entire army -- a quarter of a million men -- north to relieve them. On December 26, the Third Army relieved Bastogne. Montgomery finally attacked the northern shoulder of the Bulge on January 3.

woof.

I think that has to be the first intelligent thing that's ever come out of Schröders mouth.

"Montgomery, the best goddam soldier I have met during this war"...from non other than General Patton

Sure the yanks showed guts, but under Montgomerys leadership after Eisenhower had specifically ordered him to take charge of the retreating American troops.

Eisenhower had never commanded more than a desk and he even said that after he had asked Montgomery to look at the D-Day plans that they bore no resemblance to his own plans. Eisenhower agreed with the changes and went ahead with Monty!

Not that this has anything to do with the bombing of Dresden.

As far as I know, Dresden is twinned with Coventry which seems pretty fair as both cities were flattened during the war. At least this shows a mutual understanding if nothing else. However, I see no reason why the queen should apologise.

Also, it's good to remember that the British aren't saints either. We were using concentration camps long before Germany had even thought of them. Many say we invented them (although others say the Spanish came up with the idea)Check out the Boer war - thousands of women and children kept in horrific conditions. I think the death rate among children in the worst camp was 4 in 5.

apologize? FUCK OFF...

why?
the germans should be thankful that it did not happen to EVERY city.
what germany inflicted on the rest of humanity it could have been justified.

ONE BOMBER HARRIS
THERE'S ONLY ONE BOMBER HARRIS
ONE BOMBER HARRIS
THERE'S ONLY ONE BOMBER HARRIS

It actually did happen to nearly every city. Some were even hit harder than Dresden, and much later in war (when the end of the war was foreseeable).

yes but the concentration camps used by the Brits in South Africa were designed only to inter the Boer population. the deaths came as a result of uncontrollable desease. The Germans, however, invented DEATH camps, whose sole purpose was to liquidate the Jewish population. Hardly a comparison, imho.

and hiroshima, or maybe nagasaki, is twinned with both of them. i bet the old get-togethers are great fun.

no, the queen should not apologise. you can catch bomber harris talking about it on "the world at war", its on discovery or history or something at the moment, for those with sky.


the spanish, i believe, invented ghettoes (for the jews), even before the one in venice. brits came up with the name concentration camp but i don't think it was an original idea in the boer war era.

Do my eyes decieve me? Did Owain Glyndwr just mention the Boer War and not add anything about Rourkes drift ("This is a Welsh regiment, although there are some foreigners in it mind")?

Some other memorable quotes from the film Zulu

Careful! Pot that chap somebody! Good fellow, good fellow!

as niether you nor i were there at the time, i would personaly refrain from such apologetic revisionist statements. the end of the ar was nearing, forseeable and war are two words which do not sit well in the same sentence. considering that the allies were war weary, and that politcaly people were starting to look over the horizon, i could well imagine that desions were made to speed up the end, and minimise your own casualties as much as possible especialy considering the massive loses and fanatical fighting by german divisions in normandy and belgium, the possibility of an alpin redoubt and who knows resistance on german soil (look at east prussia for reference there). hiroshima and nagasaki proved how efficient war became in 1945. a war ended in one week using only what 20 airmen over enemy territory! give me that anyday over the alternative.

I don't see why that statement is revisionist.
By 1945 every city and industrial center had been targeted and bombed. The allied air forces, running out of targets, started to bomb smaller cities. Many of these raids made no sense whatsoever from a military standpoint. Most people -including me- fail to see how this limits your own casualties.

I see TT hasnt changed at all - my only problem with this paragraph is the line "The USA contributed massively to winning the war"... compare Eastern and Western front German fatalities/casualties - WW2 was essentially between the Germans and the Russians. Everyone else was at the very most bit actors.

Good man Jimbo , least you get your history from reliable accounts and stats.

OK. The almost complete destruction of Dresden by allied bombers was a totally in-human act that lacked any military objective (agreed)...but it was done during 'war-time'. During this war, as in an other, there have been many other such acts that can be considered blatant, evil and in-human. The bombing took place roughly 50 years ago and both sides (english and german) have tried to close the chapter of this particular war. This part of history is long finshed...maybe if the Queen would have apologized 10 years after it would have made sense...but not 50 years. If the Queen apologizes now, it does not really achieve anything...the Germans and English will never see 'eye to eye' again. Something more constructive than an apology is needed to re-unite the sides again, such as the donation of the main, silver cross for the top of the 'new' Dresden Frauenkirche by an English metal worker. This was done recently...Many small, meaningful things like these are needed and not one meaningless simple apology by some figurehead.

if you look at a map you'll see that big towns have little towns inbetween them. those wiggly line things are roads and they often join up the big towns by going through the little ones. armies use these road thingies to advance. enemies know this and sometimes wait for you to come by. they will try to stop you by killing you.this is called a battle. after years of research, military planners had worked out that suprisingly a dead enemy does not shoot you...

your statement is revisionist because you are presuming that the allies new what date the war would end. that it was in its end phases is not debatable. but look what happened to munich, so scared and pissed of from bombings etc surrenderd without a shot.

The German government never ever asked for an apology.


I wasn't aware that the German public is still mad at the British (and Americans) and blaming them for what happened. No apology is needed from either side, since all that happened 60 years ago, Germany has without a doubt apologized repeatedly, and today's Germany isn't the same that was responsible for WW2. But can't they mourn their loss just like any other nation?


You just gave the justification for many of the atrocities committed by the Nazis.

In an interview during the Queens visit this week, Schröder called the debate "absurd" and that there never has been any such request.

Germany has not asked for an apology for the wartime bombing of Dresden, and none was offered during the Queen's state visit.

However, the Queen touched the topic indirectly during her visit: "Britain and Germany should forget their obsession with the past and with simplistic wartime stereotypes, and take a more mature view of each other."

But she's half-Kraut and therefore not to be trusted...

Just like you, Jimbo...

She might be half German but she's still a Top Aussie.

(I posted this link already somewhere else, but it seemed relevant and I just love that picture of the Queen doing a donut in a Holden Ute.)

I am a little bit surprised that many people actually believe it when the english yellow press puts sth on their title...especially if it's against germany...
The idea of the german government asking the Queen for an apology is rather absurd (like oli200 mentioned).

vovama. I have German in-laws and I can tell you that one of the most hated figures of the war, in germany, was bomber Harris

According to WWII U.S marine, the most hated American of WWII, amongst U.S servicemen was...Frank Sinatra.

The reason given was that he "never went near the "front" and always had a "broad" on either arm!!!

War is a strange thing...rather like your comment about "justifying most of what the Nazis did"...Be interesting to know what you think that the German Nazis did that was not justifiable although if you did this, you would justify everything that the allies did do!!

Yes, he WAS. He isn't anymore. Thanks for proving my point.


Are you trying to pull my leg?

As I was quoting my in laws, that are still alive, i was demonstrating that he still is very much a figure of contempt over here. In fact, a few years back, when the UK erected a statue of him, there was quite an outcry over here in Germany as many consider him to be a "war criminal"!
Strangely enough, the old boy from Dresden that was being interviewed and actually survived the bombing had an interesting point of view...I quote:

"It is only the younger people in Dresden that dont like the British but afterall, we started it in the first place and anyone that thought we could do it to other people must have been very naive or stupid to think that we would not have the same done to us"

As for my other quote, nope, I am not pulling your leg...I just have a different opinion to the one you hold. Nothing wrong with that.

Spent a week in Dresden and it is a fine city but very hot in August!!