Campaign to stop blame theory on rape

...in a place where the GUYS wear skirts!!!

Yup... and if I leave a 10er on the pavement it shouldn't be seen as an invite to pick it up and f*ck off with it.

Related story on BBC News: protest over miniskirt attack.

How about we first tackle the much clearer problem of false rape claims by women who in the morning regret what they did the night before? That one's hit way too close to home.

woof.

Agree with BD. Or, failing that, I want the ability to prosecute others for my poor choices while drunk.

@ BadDoggie

what a stupid cow.
that just mocks genuine rape cases.

With all the guys wandering around with pants already half-fallen off, perhaps it should work both ways? Bands of women could go around mobbing these guys and pulling their pants all the way off, and then simply say "hey, they must have been asking for it, since they were half-off already!"

How about we stop muddying the waters. False rape claims, while vile and repugnant, have nothing to do with the topic at hand and don't in any way show that real rapes do not occur.

EDIT: I'd be happy to discuss false rape claims on another thread (and have done so in the past) as it hits close to home for me as well but it doesn't belong here

It's funny, but when dressed in a Kilt (For weddings, hogmanay, etc) This is exactly the kind of behaviour women get up to. Now if guys wanted to pull their skirts up that would be assault.

i cant even believe this is a thread. I agree with the comments from the thread about the gay valintine murder. It is not ever a excuse. Rape is rape murder is murder and so on. But parking my Porsche in a "bad neiborhood" over nicht with the windows down and keys in the ignition would be a bad idea. Still I dont expect that when they catch the theif he can say hey the guy left the key inside he wanted me to take it.

My friend was raped but had a reputation for sleeping around so everybody said she must of been asking for it. How about people start starting fights with everyone that dresses like they want to be in a gang? Works on the same principle.

Try that one on with the insurance company when you leave your house door open and somebody half-inches your gear.

As info.


Vehicle Insurance Policy Doc - p.8 as an example.

i was going to add that too but thought it was over the top

So how about we start a new thread about all the people who leave their cars with the key in the ignition and the windows down?

Still is theft though, isn't it? I mean, if you report the stolen car and he gets caught, saying that he found the keys in the ignition won't really get him off the hook, right?

I think a better example is if you ask somebody you know to help him with moving some crates, put the keys on the table in front of him (without telling him to take the car), then wait till he drives away with your car and then call the police.

To be honest, just comparing a woman's body and her right to her body with a car is a bit off in my opinion.
So does this mean at a beach you can feel free to rape anybody, because after all everyone's running around in bikinis and swimsuits and must've been asking for it?
A woman has the right to wear whatever she wants. This does not give a guy the right to rape her, touch her, or assault her in any way. It is still just as bad, just as wrong, as if the woman had been wearing a potato sack or a snow suit. No woman asks for it. No woman wants to be raped. Saying that is just taking away the responsibility from the rapist and it is really pretty sickening to see that some people seem to agree with this (that a woman wearing a mini skirt is asking for it).

@Mariposa: I agree!

Men need to take more responsibility for their actions.

Why some men think it is ok to touch a woman because their lil' peckers get hard when they see her in a short skirt is beyond me. Why do they lose all sense of reason as a result of the shift of blood flow from their heads to their gonads?

I call for castration upon conviction!

Btw: For every one instance that a woman cries wolf, there are a hundred actual rapes. It is vile and disgusting and is a result of men's lack of respect for women.

Once I was walking to the pub with a group of my friends in Melbourne, Aus, and wearing a short skirt. My (female) friend then proudly told me that if I get 'raped tonight, its your fault'. I find this attitude disgusting (and told her so, and so did every other member of the group, including men, and we changed her mind). Why can I not wear whatever I want? I happen to like short skirts! Long skirts make me look stupid (I am very short with hips), and besides, it was a warm night... why am I even justifying it? I do not live in a country that has restrictions on what I wear, and it is my human right to wear a short skirt if I want to.

99.99% of men can see a good looking girl and just look, or even see a girl that they believe is dressed inappropriatly and just keep it to themselves. Attitudes like 'she was dressed that way, she was asking for it' not only degrade women, they also degrade the men who do not act in that manner. I am sure that not one person here would actually attack a woman, believing that she wanted it, just because she was dressed that way. However, comments made are defending the attitude that that is ok.

I don't like the comparrisons to an unlocked car. If we need to compare it to a car, I would say that if you had a very nice, expensive car, that you kept looking nice, are you asking for it to be stolen? Of course not.

My mother is a doctor who works in sexual assult, and I have friends who have been raped. Not one of those people asked for it. Anyone who has a loved one affected by rape knows this.

Apparently, not all women think so:

i never said that wearing a short skirt means rape is ok. i said rape is rape theft is theft. I am sorry for my analogy it was maybe in poor taste but it was the only thing i could compare off the top of my head and yes it is easier to prove car theft after the fact. Still BEC22 i never said a woman is asking to be raped but i guess the number of women asking to be raped is equal to or slightly lower than cars asking to be stolen because they are nice(insurance fraud). Still most people with nice cars take extraordinary means to protect them car alarms and not leaving them unattended in a bad neighborhood, or letting strangers take them for a spin. It seems that anyone that would say that it could be a bad idea to wear a thong and pasties to a club where after you will walk through numerous dark alleys or end up in a strangers bed room is automatically implying that women ask to be raped. this is not the case. just to be clear while i do think people tend to make bad derisions time to time none of those decisions should mean that the person man or woman should be beaten or raped.
anyone who still has a problem with my post on the ground that i think women are asking to get rape please show me where i said that.

Like Straker I do not believe dressing up in a provocative manor means anyone is asking to be raped etc.

In an ideal society we would all be bale to go where we want, when we want without fear of anything bad happeneing.

We do not live in that place, we live in this one.

On this principle Straker makes a valid point, his point is that to dress in a way that will attract negative attention,or to go to places where your appearence will invite trouble or to park your nice expensive car unlocked in an area where cars get stolen is not a good idea.

Yes, I should be able to walk around right wing area, walk up to the right wing skin heads and have a debate on why their views are back dated and have no place in the modern world.

I should be able to park my car unlocked, leave my bike unloacked and find there a week later when I go back for it (I had other things to do that week).

My girlfriend should be able to dress how she wants and walk home at night through whatever streets or alleys and be safe.

However, I and she cannot. To do so we could be putting ourselves in danger.

It may not be your fault that something bad happens to you but as long as there are people out there who mean you harm its best to be safe.

We cannot be responcible for the actions of others but we can take responcibilty for what we do and not place ourselves in dangerious situations.

Its actually all we can do. Dress how you like but don't put yourself in a situation where something bad could happen.

Seeing as rape happens as well in Muslim societies where women tend to/are forced to cover themselves completely I don't think "provocative clothing" can be used as an "excuse" for rape.

Whilst in college in Belfast in Northern Ireland, I had to be somewhat coy late at night to hide my somewhat obvious southern Irish accent when in places where trouble could occur. A southern accent equates with being a roman catholic, and to some people thats an invitation for a slap(ahem). That I had to cover up something that i consider natural and normal wasnt great, but I did so to avoid giving anyone the trigger to give me hassle. Low profile is the key.

I see the whole thing about ladies wearing skimpy clothing out and about as something along the same lines. Its not nice that you get hassle for wearing skimpy clothes. But if your safety late at night is improved by being a little more coy about what you wear on the street, then maybe its a sensible thing to do.
What is the alternative? Argue to your asailant, who's eye for some reason or another was caught by your presence, that skimpy clothing is no reason to pay any notice to little old me??
No, you have a bit of cop on and dont draw attention to yourself!

Tomorrow morning when you wake up safe and sound, then maybe try and change the world!

To try to keep onesself safe from the potential danger posed by other people sounds like common sense, but where does being sensible stop and restricting one's freedom because of other people's prejudices start? Remember the recent case in Saudi Arabia of a woman who met a man that wasn't her husband, and was subsequently abducted and raped by other men, only to be sentenced to 200 lashes? According to the authorities there, she made herself a target through her own behaviour.


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11...rape/index.html

So whatever the society, whether Scotland or Saudi Arabia, it seems that there is a tendency to find a reason why the woman is partly responsible for the crime.

I don't think anyone is supporting the 'she was asking for it' legal defense in the thread, just commenting that people need to be aware of their surroundings and take responsiblity for their own safety - advice which is not limited to women and rape.. But thats just common sense.

I wish I had exhibited it when my drunk ass got mugged at oktoberfest.

I'm still really not convinced lilplatinum. Why should what someone wears make somebody more likely to be raped?

As was thinking of an analogy where as a white Person there are areas of Philidelphia my collegues say I should not go as the risk is too great. I thought there is an analogy but then I fail to see why dressing a particular way makes it more likely somebody would be raped.

Perhaps it's because some men may feel that the law may defend them as 'they were asking for it?'

Sure, and lets be honest, rapists aren't exactly logical... It seems likely that if someone is dressed like a hooker in a bad part of town they are more likely to be targeted than someone who isnt.. Similarly, some scumbag date rapist is probably more likely to target the girl dressed like a skank in the club because in their mind they are more likely to succeed.

But its questionable, you are right, I doubt there are statistical studies to show one way or another.. Its definately not an excuse and should not be seen as an argument to tell women what to wear, either way..

I think awareness of your surroundings and control of alcohol consumpiton are probably far more important things to be conscious of than attire...

errr...if someone is dressed like a hooker in a bad part of town, aren't they more liable to be approached and asked "how much"? And how the heck can anyone explain how some men will rape an 80 year old woman, or an 8 month old child... were they also asking for it because of their clothing or their behaviour?

Rape has little to do with the woman herself. Rapists will simply go for what they think is the easiest target and best opportunity, regardless of appearance.

I am not questioning that dressing in a certain way and walking down dark allyways, and especually if you are drunk, will make you more of a target. It is common sense not to go into those areas alone, and to be alert all the time.
What I was trying to say is that my problem is with people who state after a girl was raped, 'well she was dressed like that, what did she think would happen?', or think that she was in any way 'asking for it'. I think that is making excuses for the rapist, who, as has been said, obviously has twisted thinking to start with.

So it's ok to rape a hooker because she's not particular about her sex partners? How about you rape her, beat her half dead but then throw a tenner next to her; is that still rape? After all, you paid for the services.

And this is why these topics are bad ideas, emotions cloud reading comprehension. Apparently in crazy land " are more likely to be targeted " means "i think it is okay to rape." And I'm out before the english language is reinvinted so that my posts are read as a confession of being a serial rapist.

In summer I like to wear teeny weeny outfits when I go clubbing because it is too darn hot to wear anything else. Not all people who dress 'skanky' as it has been called are doing it for male attention. Once guys realise that not everything a girl does is because of them the world will be a much nicer place to be.

I agree that it's making excuses, but not so sure that the rapist's thinking is necessarily much different. If a significant proportion of society believe that the woman is partly to blame anyway, for whatever reason, why should a rapist's thinking be considered particularly twisted? After all, couldn't it be argued that he's just taking the "asking for it" attitude to its logical conclusion? One of my (female) university lecturers was a proponent of the "asking for it" view, saying that a "silly" student at the university who had gone out at night skimpily dressed had managed to get herself raped. I'd call that twisted thinking.

"Crazy land" being a German courtroom where two men were acquitted of raping a prostitute although one was holding her down while the other beat her into submission before they took turns at her for three hours. The judge said it was technically impossible to rape a prostitute. I hope he died of stomach cancer in a part of the world where morphine has not yet been introduced.

I've not heard that one Sarabyrd but that is enough to destroy your faith in the criminal justice system.

@lorelei,

Although I agree with you Saudi Arabia is another culture and they do not live with the same values we do. The keeping yourself safe makes as much sence here as it doesnt there.

You just have to be aware of the dangers, in fact in order to keep yourself safe you have to be aware of what could threaten your safety.

Being sensible comes from keeping yourself safe regardless of the danger.

I think most poeple would think that what happened to the woman in saudia arabia was wrong (actually very wrong and insane if you ask me), that is their culture. they have to change it, we cannot.

If you cros the road you look both ways, if you are in a bad area you dont walk down dark allies etc.

I also do not think its possible to just blanket every society and say people always look for a reason why the woman in to blame.

I think the 'blame' label comes in when poeple think 'who walked down that dark alley?'. If you look at it this way, the person walking down the alley is not to blame for being raped (no one is) but they are responcible for being in that alley. They walked down there.

I look both ways when I cross the road, I do not walk down dark allies in unsafe areas and I always wear a seat belt. Sensible precautions.

As I said in my previous post, in an ideal world this kind of crap would not happen to poeple and they could go abut doing what they like in safety...

While I understand superficially what you are saying cb6 I'll come back to the original point of the thread.

If you were a 'white' person mugged in a 'black' part of town and the defence was 'they were white and shouldn't have been there' then there would be an outcry. 'she was dressed provocativly' seems allowable as a defense though. Why not a similar outcry and condemnation?

Yes, it makes sense for a person alone to avoid certain situations but their dress should never be a valid defense.

Yes, hope someone can answer that.


But I think that, as soon as one starts looking at ways in which the situation could have been avoided in accordance with "common sense" (e.g. she could have avoided the alley, avoided walking home, avoided wearing what she did, avoided drinking, avoided going out, etc.), one automatically cuts the criminal some slack by making her partly responsible for the situation she found herself in, and no doubt that kind thinking will affect how some of her friends/family/police/jurors, etc. (i.e. anyone that might influence her decision to report the crime or influence the outcome in court) view the seriousness of the crime.

Thats awfull and I agree with your sentiments, and if thats the law of the land it should be changed. But, what I was saying has nothing to do with that. I understand what you guys are saying about the social concept that the woman is to blame and how it is a dangerous precedent to set. But you should be able to tell people they need to be aware of their surroundings without tacitly letting a criminal off the hook. The fact that one needs to take responsiblity for ones safety does not mean they deserve things that happen to them, or that they were asking for them. But one should always try to mitigate risk to oneself, because it aint a perfect world.


I agree and if it were a legal defense it should be decried. However, reality is somewhat true in that case, there were parts of town back home in Houston where it would not have been intelligent for me, a small white kid, to have been by myself after dark. Just like there are rural redneck parts of the South in America where it would not be smart to be a black guy hanging around.. These situations aren't acceptable and are social situations that direly need to be rectified, but the fact that they are wrong should not be used as an excuse to close your eyes to reality.

I think we're agreeing then.

@Pas, I agree, it isnt a defense and should never be used as one. However I think most poeple would think 'why where they there in the first place'.

As I said, its not a defense for the crime but it my responcibility to keep myself safe.

@Lorelei, we dont have a choice but to think this way, otherwise we would never look at how we can protect ourselves etc.

However you are right, its a shame but we live in a blame society where people are always looking to blame something or someone. This includes defence lawyers looking for any way to discredit to alledged victim. In this they will use anything to chip away at the credability of the victim. However this is not confined to rape trials.

That is an important point, until a verdict comes out there is only a victim and an accused. A rape trial is no different to any other, it is about one side winning. Regardless of who is right, the prosectution will also try to hint that the character of the accused is less than white and thus they are a person more likley to have commited the crime. The defense does the same.

Lets not forget that juries are a mixed bunch of people, there are as many males as females there.

This is the same as any other trial.

I also think we have to accept that not just women get raped. Its is, although for the most part, not a crime that just happens to women.

I'm sure I'll be lambasted for being insensitive...but why is this campaign even important in the grand scheme of things? IIRC from my college sociology class the state of dress of the victim is only cited as a factor in a very small minority of rape cases. The number of accused rapists who even attempt a "she was dressed that way" defense in a courtroom must be miniscule.

It just seems that spending time on this particular issue is a bit of a red herring when you consider that the vast, vast majority of rapes are crimes of violence/power/control and have nothing at all to do with mini-skirts or low-cut sweaters.

Our office defended one of the guys. He then disappeared Spainwards without paying the bill. Every time I think of the expression on the lawyer's face when he read the letter containing that boasting information it makes me feel all warm inside.


I have yet to hear the "but he was dressed provocatively!" excuse in an all-male rape case.

DH, I think the blame issue is not so much one of the courts but of the society, and in society it really is a big issue. Even if the rapist does not even come up with it as a defense, many people will say stuff like, "well, dressed like that she was asking for it" or "what did she expect when she was dressed like a slut?!" and that is an issue in most societies which has to be addressed and change has to be made. You could argue with "there are more important issues in the world" about most problems. Compared to how many people die of hunger in Africa most issues in Western countries seem irrelevant. Does not mean they shouldn't be addressed though. It is also an issue that is widely okay with many people, not just men but women argue like that too (she asked for it), and it shouldn't be okay.

Yes but even then the vast majority of rapes have nothing to so with the state of dress of the victim. Why focus on something that is not a prevalent factor in occurences of rape?

What would you like to focus on? I think rape by itself (irrelevant of the choice of clothing by victim) is also a topic that is discussed in society, isn't it? And maybe other common rape issues need to be addressed more often as well, like rape in relationships/marriages, and child abuse but does that mean you should not address another important issue instead? I think maybe other issues need to be discussed additionally, but then often they already are.
The way someone dresses is not a prevalent factor in occurrences of rape but it is made into one by many people who continue blaming the victim even though no blame is on the victim. Just the fact that it is a problem is proven by some of the replies here. Discussing one issue does not automatically negate other issues.

Which bill?

The lawyer's bill. So the lawyer got screwed, too. Serves him right for defending a scumbag.