Murdered for asking a guy to be his valentine

I'm not usually emotional but this made me cry

Brutally murdered for asking a guy to be his valentine.

wow, that is sad.

Yeah, pretty sickening. The fake emotion, I mean.

Why do you think its fake?

I´m with you on the fake emotion! Oh look a gay has been killed! I too am gay! How awful is that! Boo Hoo! My next guest is is a Peruvian Lama juggler! Lots of applause for me!

Do you disagree with the content of what she's saying, sea-king, or just the delivery?

I think its honest. The story moved me too. Do the rest of you think that this kind of murder is in some way excusable or justifiable and an emotional reaction can only be fake? Here is the story from the NYT (hopefully more credible for some of you with an axe to grind):

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/us/23oxnard.html

"it is ok if you are gay"

bollocks.

I hope that was a joke

Typical Ami presenter, I am gay and misunerstood!, pity me! Sorry about the poor young guy! But why, oh why drag it into her show?

she's Ellen Generes, not just an 'Ami Presenter'. She is gay herself.

oh and Scotte, your beloved Tory pary no longer seems to have a problem with it now that Cameron is due to attend a frontbench CP which he is allegedly "thrilled" about. Changed days indeed.

are you also a gay

doh

yeh or neh

My mum said I looked very gay yesterday, but she didn't mean it in that sense

@sea-king, why drag Madeleine McCann into the thousands of unrelated shows her story's appeared on? Her parents would probably say it was to raise awareness. Surely, in this case, anything that gets people to think about the underlying issues for even a few minutes is a good thing. How else are you going to challenge the prejudice that gives rise to this type of incident in the first place? I think the more people talk about it, the better.

The fact I am hetereo, I don´t need to wave in peoples faces!
Why does she feel the need to use her gayness to get viewers?
Not enough talent?

astro_rabbit, you have been on this forum for a good long time. I have never hidden my sexuality. Yes, I am gay. So what? Does that mean my sadness at this crime is somehow traduced?

er, this story is BIG news in the states. Much like the Matthew Sheppard killing. It would have been worse if she hadn't commented TBH as the most prominent syndicated TV personality.

Maybe she's trying to 'use her gayness' to confront irrational fear and hatred of people she identifies with? Would you have an issue with a black presenter discussing a hate crime against a black kid too?

Only 18 months, that's not that long

imo the bigger issue here is:
how the fuck does a teenager end up with the notion that killing people is a good way to get them out of your hair? not that it doesn't work, it just shouldn't be part of the teenage-problem-solving-kit.

not so important issue:
did ellen really feel it or fake it? i think she was for real. i might be wrong. good job using her show to showcase the crime. bad job focussing it on the victim's being gay only, since that's not all there was to it. she's forgiven (by me) since understandably the gay part stuck out like a sore thumb from her perspective.

I see your point here:

But it seems from the NYT article that the victim's sexuality was a key factor in this case, and he'd already been bullied for it in the past. So I think the other big issue is:
How does a teenager end up with the notion that a person being gay and expressing an interest in you is sufficiently threatening and abhorrent that it requires any kind of radical action, let alone murdering them?

Whether or not the presenter feels as emotional as she looks is of no relevance to either of the issues above.

well said Tiggi!

I remember the days when guys who killed kids like this (and even in the UK of the 1990s it was not uncommon) would usually get off any punishment by invoking the gay panic defense (ie it was so horrifying that a gay man would make a pass at them that they would have to stab them 67 times and then mutilate the body beyond recognition).

Thankfully times have changed.

But it beggars belief frankly that anyone could look at the bare facts of the case above and conclude that Larry's self-confessed sexuality was an irrelevant factor in the case.

so if he had killed the unattracitve fat girl in his class it would have been only an issue of fatism? yes, that as well, but not only. but sitting on your gay high horse you dismiss the real issue which imo still is: he killed. a fellow human being. not in self-defense. just because. are you seriously thinking that this is a gay-hate thing only? the world is full of people who hate/feel uncomfortable with/make jokes about gays. you probably know that. a shame and all. but you are missing the point here. so did ellen.

King's murder is a terrible tragedy and there is no excuse for it. Perhaps parents and school districts need to think about counseling for young people facing issues of sexuality, including the sexuality of friends and peers. Kids this age are still developing emotionally- a kid in McInerney's place could not be expected to take such an unwelcome advance from another male well and not be affected it emotionally. Not knowing all the facts, and not knowing McInerney's emotional state at the time, we cannot say if it was a hate crime or not. Did the shooter also bully gays? If so, I cannot imagine why King would have approached him. If he didn't bully them and never commented on gay or homosexuality, how can it be proven the murder was a hate crime?

On the issue of media coverage of this tragedy (and given the mention of Matthew Sheppard's tragic murder) there once was another tragic case in the US which raised questions of whether there is a double standard in the media with regards to a heinous crime where the perpetrators rather than the victim were gay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Dirkhising

To be frank, I am skeptical that De Generes would have made an issue of the Dirkhising case.

Did this just happen?

No time to look it up but I'm sure this has happened before in the last few years.

As for whether it's right for her to bring it up. She's openly gay , why do people have a problem with it being aired?

I am concerned that she's making a lot of assumptions about the case though. Was there any contact between them before? What is the other guys point of view , what does he site as the motive? Does he have a defense?

There have been quite a few similar cases. ILGA and Annesty list them in the 100s in the last decade. But only a few have made the international news including: Matthew Sheppard, crucified on a barbed wire fence in Wyoming 1998; Barry Witchell, brutally murdered by a fellow soldier who had found out he was gay in Kentucky 1999; the couple Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder slaughtered by Matthew and Tyler Williams, who thought they were doing God's will in California 1999 . . .

heck, here's the list of notables from then on (and I'm only listed the ones in the US and the ones that reached the international press:



Read the NYT link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/us/23oxnard.html

The case has been widely reported in the USA. It appears the harassment of King only started a few weeks ago, immediately following his decision to publicly admit to friends that he was gay. Having not been bullied previously he was repeatedly harrassed by a small group of class mates who made it clear they objected to him being gay. But Brandon McInerney just took it one stage further and gunned King down after King had allegedly jokingly asked him to be his valentine in front of the group. It seems pretty clear cut what the motivation was here to me at any rate.

Ok,



that was stupid.

If you are being harrased for something - be it being gay, a "fatty", a different race, whatever, it's just plain stupid to go to your antagonizer in front of their "group" and rile them up even more. Especially in trigger happy America.

Of course that doesn't excuse murder, or any violence what so ever. I'm just saying, that was not exactly a clever thing to do. At the very least he could have expected to get the crap beat out of him.

What DD Bug said. If King did exactly what you described BTC, it could easily be argued it wasn't a hate crime. I have never heard of or seen a incident where a true victim of previous hazing or bullying did something like that.

Another question that arises from this case is whether or not McInerney should be tried as an adult (he's 14).

Dont think I mentioned Madeleine McAnn, did I?
I think the underlying issue here is the spread of gratuiotus violence that is becoming more and more prevelant in schools. Not just in the US, Europe too!
Seems to me, young people don´t confront issues by talking about them, they stomp em to death. Life is after all one big Video game!


No, all power to presenters who confront uncomfortable issues, be they black, gay whatever! but I felt that she was using the whole story to justifie her own lifestyle! Which she doesn´t need to do!
Have to agree with DD, you just don´t walk into the lions den and call the top lion a big old cute pussy cat, not with all the other lions watching! You will be eaten, thats for sure!

Young people have never confronted issues by talking about them, they have always been over emotional often violent little punks. The difference is that now there are alot more kids crammed into schools with a much more non-homogenous student body (leading to ntoiceable differences for kids to pick up on) and 4000% more media coverage.

Right sea-king, the guy deserved it. Totally. Was asking for it. Like women who wear short skirts and then get raped. Yeah.

We're talking about 14 year old kids here. I'm not passing judgement in any direction but you have a kid coming to terms with his sexuality and another also likely to be having their own early/mid teen questions. Try him as an adult may be not taking into account these factors.

I suspect there will be a lot more to this than just a hate crime or a gay taunting somebody but perhaps this case does show how us big bad 'adults' break the world down?

Now Gen, you know me I certainly didn´t mean it that way!

!!!


Are you two for real??? Are you really trying to tell me that a 15 year old teenager was asking for it? And the fact that he made a camp joke means he was fair game? Do you really think there is some kind of equivalence between such a joke and being gunned down that makes this NOT a hate crime?

Jesus, it would be like saying a woman in short skirt was asking to be raped or an African American walking on a sidewalk in a white neighbourhood in the south was asking to be lynche. Sheesh"!!!°

You both go down considerably in my estimation.

Are US people really that screwed up about sexuality?

well that is very much the way it came across

No, it has to do with being street smart. Me walking down the street in a provocative outfit in a "dangerous" part of town would be stupid. Wearing a KKK hat in a black urban neighborhood would be stupid. And, yes, unfortunately, provoking someone in that manner is stupid. My arguement has nothing to do with sexuality, it has to do with provocation.
He shouldn't have felt the need to provoke, and the other certainly never should have felt the need to react in that manner.
Education and tolerance are key elements missing here, apparently on tt as well. In both directions.

Perhaps you should read what I post a little more closely and make sure you understand it. What part of "there is no excuse for it", i.e., in reference to the murder do you fail to understand?

Since you aren't American, you probably do not realize that a hate crime charge is in addition to whatever felony charges are filed, in this case first-degree murder. I was merely questioning whether or not the additional hate crime charge was justified given the antagonistic and aggressive behavior of the victim towards his murderer and the lack of any evidence so far that the shooter had bullied anyone on the basis of being gay or had even made anti-gay statements. I would be inclined to think that it was a hate crime if the shooter had himself bullied King or another gay person on the basis of being homosexual. Is there any evidence of that? Surely you have heard of being innocent until proven guilty, right? That applies to hate crime charges as well.

Many humble apologies! You know me too BTC!

Don't patronise me matey. Of course I know this and it seems to me clear that this is indeed a hate crime. That you fail to see that tells me more about you and your stinking attitudes than any of the bile yoiu have been posting lately.

Careful Bell, that you assume it's a hate crime may also say something about you and your attitudes.

Again, I don't want to pass judgement in any direction here. A crime was commited and young person is dead. That , I would hope, anybody would agree is a terrible tragidy. The surroundings of that crime and what it means in the more general society I don't see enough information to pass a definate judgement on.

Of course it's a hate crime.

Would he have been killed if he had been straight?

Or Black?

absolutely ER!

And your basis for concluding that it is clear that this murder was a hate crime is...? Ever heard of mitigation? Little in law is clear, and there are at least two sides to every story.

As for the personal attacks you are making on me, one wouldn't assume that a UK citizen understands the US legal system. As for attitudes, a few months ago you questioned my right as a US citizen (you didn't realize that I am also a citizen of an EU Member State) to oppose voting in German national elections by you, a UK citizen (a position I would take regardless of my own citizenship). Such logic applied to this thread would preclude you from commenting on a US legal matter. I suggest that you leave any anti-US feelings you may have out of this discussion and stick to the facts of the case. If you have more information than has been presented on this thread, which is all that I have seen on this case, share it. I often don't think too much of what you have posted, especially on economic issues, but it's not personal.

I never get why we punish people for why they did, as if it matters if the kid killed a gay kid, a straight kid, a white kid, a black kid, a guy or a girl.. This would have been no less tragic if it was a straight kid who was killed, it just wouldnt have been in the news.

Maybe? Perhaps the killer is just a bully and he and the person he killed had a history?

IMO there looks to be a high probability but to state as fact seems too strong.

That is exactly why the standard is guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and not just assumptions made without the facts being entered into evidence. I suspect that a defense attorney, with regards to the hate crime charge, would claim that by antagonizing the shooter and publicly propositioning him, the victim was negligent and not a completely innocent victim of bullying on the basis of being gay. Perhaps rather than hate, the shooter's motivation (premeditated) was anger at the victim's behavior towards him rather than his sexual orientation.

At any rate, I don't see any way the shooter can avoid being found guilty of first-degree murder, whether or not he is tried as an adult.

I'm not sure that humiliating a younger student in a sexual way is "just a camp joke". Usually it is referrred to as sexual harrassment (yes, even gays can be guilty of sexual harrassment). I don't think it's remotely possible for anyone here to make a determination of whether a hate crime took place. Much of what's available in the media has already gone through various editorial slants and filters.

It could well be that the shooter was part of the crowd harrassing the gay guy prior to the shooting. Or maybe not.

It could be that the gay guy acted in a malicious way in sexually humiliating the shooter in front of his classmates. Or maybe not.

All I see is a bunch of jumping to conclusions in absence of a full set of facts.

Which is pretty much the basis of every discussion ever posted on TT.