A warning about the NiMiMit.de carsharing service

Hi all,

I recently got trapped by an internet "company". The website http://www.nimimit.de/. It is even listed on Googlemail! So beware!

By the first look it's just another website for mitfahrgelegenheit. I registered for free and then received a bill of 110 euro one month later (the exact time point when the Widerruf period ran out). The first Mahnung came one week later with 15 euro more on the bill, with the threat of lawsuit.

I went back to check the website again. Apparently what I am trapped LEGALLY for two years. Right now I have no idea how I am going to get out of this. I will be really grateful if someone can give me some advice.

Thanks!

Jerry

It sounds not dissimilar to this sort of scam which someone else here was stung by... I guess the advice given then would be pretty much valid to your case too - though warning, I'm not a lawyer...

Ye be royally rogered methinks, you are right about the two years bit. A translation from the website:

Terms and conditions of pricing, invoicing and payment:

a. By clicking on "register now" the user is registered as a member of nimimit.de. Doing so finalises a two year contract costing EUR 9.90 incl. VAT. Whereby the first month is not invoiced.

b. Billing is annually in advance

Send a recorded delivery letter to them, terminating the contract, otherwise renewal is probably automatic.

But they didn't say that they will pay back the money for the months after the termination... annoying annoying!

you can find a long discussion about nimimit and similar companies at http://www.netzwelt.de/forum/vermeintliche...n-seitz-67.html and a sample letter to send to the company under 'download' on this page: http://www.sat1.de/ratgeber_magazine/akte/.../content/15358/

In this case, I would like to know how they can prove that it was you that signed up. If they don't have your signature, I don't know how it's possible.

If you didn't like someone, you could just sign them up to 10 of these things with just knowing their address/mobile number.

In this case though, they seem pretty clear about charging you.

At some point Germany has to rewrite its contract law to protect consumers from this sort of entrapment. Coming from the UK, where consumer protection laws do just that, it's pretty surprising to find even reputable companies can lock you in to a multi-year contract with just your signiature.

There are a lot of these websites popping up that the German Consumers Association are aware of, e.g. a website with addresses in several countries, you only have 2 weeks to cancel the contract, telephone numbers with high fees.
Best advice is to go to the consumers association and speak with them. Munich address is:
Verbraucherzentrale Bayern, Beratungsstelle München, Mozartstraße 9, 80336 München
http://www.verbraucherzentrale-bayern.de/

You'll probably get more and more threatening letters telling you to pay...extra fines...threat to go to a debt collection agency. There was an article in Spiegel about such sites and they mentioned that no-one (at the time of writing) had been succesfully sued.

Of course you should always 'do your research' (Google) before signing up for a website you know nothing about even if it is for 'free'.

By the way the UK address mentioned on this site:
http://www.nimimit.de/index.php?seite=impress


appears in a few forums ...as being a scammer site with lots of dodgy companies associated with it (and probably just a postbox):

Eg. (but a couple of years old):
http://resources.alibaba.com/topic/7178/Ko...ammer_.htm?va=0
http://www.bluetack.co.uk/forums/lofiversi...php/t15188.html

Here's that mail you should send.
Perhaps a scam thread should be a sticky.

The law does that, though. It's highly unlikely a contract like this one would hold up in court. Changing contract law wouldn't make a difference because these companies never actually sue anyone. Basically you're dealing with businesses simply sending out lots of baseless invoices. Normal courts are too slow to deal with companies that can disappear and pop up again under a different name in a matter of days. Even a special small claims court for cases like this one probably wouldn't be quick enough. Maybe an up-to-date customer complaint database would help.

wow. Thank you all for advices. I will dig in a little more on this. Perhaps there is a chance to get out of this clean afterall.

Just out of interest, which part of "monatlich 9,90 Euro" did you not understand?

They changed the layout. Originally the fees were displayed way below the actual sign-up form, only visible when you scrolled to the bottom of the page.

STB, often the layout of these sites is different depending on how you enter the page (i.e. through some ad on another site or directly).
Someone else had a similar issue like this and posted about it here and also got a "smartass" reply just like yours (don't remember who wrote that one, though).

Also, agreed with Punchbear, a sticky might be a good idea, we seem to be getting a topic like this every week now, and while the site / service changes, the scam idea and the proceedings how to deal with it don't.

The two other recent topics about similar scams:
Getting caught out by a "free" SMS website
Scammed by the survey company "Umfragenscout"

(The second is the one CartoonCat already mentioned.)

@Mariposa, Everytime somebody posts about being caught by this kind of scam, in among the helpful posts there are a few scattered along the lines of:


Even though it looks, smells, and sounds like a scam, some people here seem to be sympathetic to the scammers.

As far as I'm concerned neither morally, nor legally is there any reason to pay, and get annoyed by posters putting indecision into generally sound advice, not only not to pay, but giving links why not, and advice on how to proceed to ensure you won't have to pay.

Yeah, I don't get that either. There's a good reason they hide behind UK Ltd's and PO boxes.

Yeah, I don't get that either. It's pretty sad actually because these people are supporting scams and scammers. I just hope people know which advice to take and which not to take.

Ironically when it comes to other contractual issues, here on TT, people do give sound advice, as in, just because it says that in the contract does not mean it is valid or that you have to pay or do this or do that.

I just think that people have to take some responsibility for their own actions. Even if the information on pricing wasn't clear, people are still voluntarily providing their name, address, email and mobile-telephone details. Those are not the kind of details that I would personally provide to a company without spending a minute or two looking a bit further into who I am dealing with.

Mitfahrgelegenheit.de is the established leader in this field and allows you to search for journeys without registering, so I would have navigated away from that other website the moment I was confronted with a login page, especially one that demands so many personal details.

oh well welcome to the club lol

wow these f$*ers chaged their address to uk to continue a...holes! been in munich not that long ago.

you can send them as many "widerruf" as you want they will ignore you, i never heard anything from them except getting bills and reminders and they threatend me straight from the beginning which is just soooooo wrong, funnily enuff the more Mahnungen i get from them the nicer the tone and the less threads in them. anyway, if you sent them a widerruf you dont have to do anything anymore til the whole thing goes to court. i just got mail from their laywers, guess what (owned by the same ppl) plus the letter looks just like the last reminder with a different letter head! idiots as if anyone would believe that. i will now write to these laywers just to tell them they wont get a penny of me and if they dont like it they shall sue me, coz they wont do that coz they can only loose.

and just btw the AGB's are invalid as they can NOT take the right off you to cancel the contract, just coz you press a button, if it doesnt states you'll loose all your rights if you press here. and explain you in detail how and why. so dont worry they will spam you a bit with paper, just pop it into a draw and let it there in case anyone ever comes but it wont happen so dont worry!

just btw they change their page on a regular basis, coz when i signed up it was written somewhere not visible (if at all) and you only saw it when when you went back to check if its really there, thinking i cant be that stupid not to have seen THAT its ight jumping in my eyes! its a scam period

Sounds as if you need proper legal advice. Contacted Verbraucherzentrale? They are usually quite helpful...

Stephan

@cyn

Thanks! Just a few questions. How long have they been bugging you? Did they finally get you in court?

The problem is that, I haven't been threatened by a company with lawsuit before. In my panic, I transferred the money first, and hoping I can solve the thing properly and get the rest of money back after the widerruf. But I guess the money has already fallen into water in this case. Unless they really try to bring me to court.

I think I will send a properly signed Kündigung and that was it. It is a lesson learned the hard way - read everything before you click!

oh no!!! you DIDNT pay did you??? you will never see any of the money back, they are all empty threats.

they wont take me to court and i didnt sent nor will send any money and they certainly wont take you to court if you paid up. they can only loose at court and they now it. you wont get a penny back.

yes read before you click however, its written in a way that a) you do not necessaarily realise that they try to take all rights of cancellation of you and that AGBs' change as often as the website so just coz you read yesterday something and agreed to that doesnt mean it will be there today if you wanna have another look at it.

Never! pay up if you think you shouldnt have to.
if they have a right to get the money then you send them the cash plus mahngebuer about a month or 3 later but never pay a company just coz they threatening you. companies never threaten someone with a lawyer til the very last (3rd) Mahnung, never saw it happen anyway! and then you will get mail from a lawyer or a inkasso and you can still challange it. and only if it is a serious company then it will go to court and you still have the possibility to put in your view of events and might wont have to pay.

so lesson to be learnt is: challange everything if you think they do not have a right to get any kind of money of you, and dont be scared to keep them waiting...

Lesson learnt, but a rather expensive one. Grrrrrr...

well well. there is nothing to do now except to send the widerruf and see what happens. My guess is...nothing.

If you did an electronic transfer then go to your bank and get your money back without any fuss. You have six weeks within which this can be done.

Agreed with HellesAngel. You can definitely try that (i.e. going to your bank and get the money back), but do not expect the company to give you back your money voluntarily. That is a bit like asking a mugger to hand you back your purse after you've just given it to them.

That's probably because they are also convinced the website is real because it contains some legal crap.
Most people are aware of 'spam' and 'phishing' but these scam sites are not so well publicised - and seems to be on the rise because people give in to the threats as they look authentic.

My advice would be that before you sign up for any website you should Google it to see what discussions there are about that particular site.
And a new tool (although in its infancy in my opinion) is McAfee SiteAdvisor which (if you install the add-on) indicates if the site is ok or not.

I say infancy because German sites do not seem to be well represented: NiMiMit.de comes with a question mark, but a related scam site webdater.de comes up with a Green tick.

I was just reading about exactly the same problem in a german forum, heres the answer (in German)

Answer 1- the contract is not legally binding you can ignore it

Wie hast Du Dich angemeldet?
Verträge per Mail sind rechtsungültig,
wenn nicht beide Seiten eine zertifizierte
Mail (z.B. von: http://www.trustcenter.de/)
oder einen von beiden Seiten unterschriebenen
Vertrag zum Vertragsabschluß benutzt haben.

Meist kommen die mit sowas wie mit
der Speicherung der IP-Adresse,
das aber ist nicht rechtsgültig.

Nichts machen. Selbst der gezahlte Betrag
kann nicht gegen Dich verwendet werden, da
eben nur eine gültige Unterschrift (mindestens
drei Zeichen nachvollziehbar).

Sie werden mit Inkasso kommen und Dir mit dem Anwalt drohen.
Achte darauf: sie versenden ihre Briefe nie per Einschreiben, also
hast Du sie nie bekommen. Und das Gegenteil sollen sie Dir mal
ohne Nachweis beweisen

Answer 2- the contract is not legally binding you need to cancel your membership (by post) and you can ignore any threats

diese Rechnung wirst Du nicht zahlen müssen. Denn alle diese Angebote, bei denen man lustiger Weise immer 84,- Euro zahlen soll, leben nur davon, dass Leute die AGB nicht richtig lesen oder irgendwo im Kleingedruckten auf der Internetseite die tatsächlichen Kosten versteckt sind. Solche überraschenden Klauseln sind unwirksam und begründen keine Zahlungspflicht.

Achso, die Kündigung: Per Mail wird diese nicht bearbeitet bis die 14 Tage um sind. Danach heißt es zu spät.

Was folgt: Rechnung, ziemlich kurz danach ein Inkassoschreiben, weitere Schreiben von Inkasso und Anwalt, evtl. ein Mahnbescheid durch ein Gericht. Alles immer mit Einschüchterungsversuchen, damit Du zahlst.

Wie geht man vor?

Kündigen z.B. per Mail, vom Inkasso eine Vollmacht verlangen (siehe Inkassoforum) mehr nicht. Ansonsten keine Reaktion, Briefe wegheften, wenn ein Mahnbescheid kommt ohne begründung innerhalb von 14 Tagen an das Gericht einen Widerspruch einlegen (es liegt ein entsprechendes Formblatt bei). Danach solltest Du nix mehr hören.

Wer wird vor Gericht schon eine Klage einreichen, wenn die Wahrscheinlichkeit groß ist, dass er damit ein Musterurteil kassiert, dass seine Forderung unberechtigt ist? Lieber weiter einschüchtern und hoffen, dass 10% zahlen...

These scams are common here and they seem all based on the same concept “its worth a try you never know some people might actually pay…” but I don’t believe that any of these companies would risk suing as this would create a precedent against themselves.

At some point Germany is going to have to get with it on its contract law and consumer protection. It's shameful. Even big, so-called reputable companies of all stripes carry on in the most shocking ways when it comes to getting out of a contract. Newcomers to Germany really need to be aware of this. Once you sign a contract (any contract), good luck getting out of it. Companies throw as many obstacles as possible in the way to screw consumers. It seems to be a national sport!

IIRC the bank refunds your money to you, then claws it back from the recipient. For you the whole process is very easy - you go to your bank with your statement and point at the transaction and say it was done in error, or if they drew the money after you gave them your details you say they had no authority to do so. Also IIRC it does not matter if it was a transfer the recipient company initiated or that you did online or at one of the bank's machines. If my understanding is correct banks and electronic money transfer protection is one area where German consumer protection is up to scratch.

@ Hellesangel

Thanks for you golden tip! gonna do that tomorrow.

And thank you all for helpful tips. And I hope none of you get stung but these bugs again.

J.

Pleasure, I hope I'm correct in your case, let us know how you get on. I know it works for companies (like Telekom) who generally have your bank details and draw money automatically each month because I've done it when they made a mistake. They got royally pissed off and started sending me mahnungen, automatically generated as their computer billing system is a bit stupid, but eventually had to back down as they were simply wrong. Either way, you have your money while you go through the process of sorting out who is right or wrong.

AFAIK the charge-back thing doesn't work with transfers initiated by the account holder, only for Lastschrift-payments initiated by the recipient.

I've recalled a transfer(überweisung) 2 days after doing it, but its max 2 or 3 days. Totally different from the 6 weeks period to wiederruf a Lastscrift.

I was told it's only possible to cancel an Überweisung as long as it's 'pending', so within 0-3 business days. As far as Lastschriften are concerned, 6 weeks is not the true limit. Within the 6 weeks you just need to call your bank to do the charge-back. After that they will want something in writing, but you can still get the money back.

Yeah, I know what you meant. What I meant was, do not expect the company to transfer the money back to you after you send a letter to them canceling the contract and nicely asking for the money back. I have never had to cancel a Überweisung, I have heard it is possible but I am not sure if it applies to Überweisungen, or just Lastschriften (as several people here say).

I went to the bank. Apparently it is not a lastschrift. Therefore there is no way I can cancel it as the money is already in the scam account. So too bad. They succeeded in their fishing this time.

In German, Schriftwechsel absurd.

Amtsgericht München last year found in favour of a person who refused to pay in a similar situation - it wasn't clearly indicated on the site that costs were involved.

The judgement (in pdf form).