New film about Nazi Germany's "Titanic"

This is the first I have heard of the cruise ship Wilhelm Gustloff.

Story from Reuters: New film explores fate of Nazi Germany's "Titanic".




Photo showing model of the ship by Darkone, Wikipedia.

Summary: Known enemy troop transport sighted and sunk by Soviets who by that point had lost some 20 million of their fellow countrymen to that enemy over the course of a four-year battle of attrition.

woof.

In present day politilingo: UN condemns targeting civilians murderous massacre evil disproportionate response.

And it won´t be the last, as soon as the Bild gets it´s teeth into it, along with all the whingeing about Bomber Harris and Germans being chased out various lands (Donau Schwaben)

Jeez, start fights and you got to expect a kicking sometimes!

Wikipedia: Wilhelm Gustloff (ship)

The Wikipedia article mentions this very ship in 1939 had transported back Luftwaffe personnel that had killed a significant number of people in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Too bad it wasn't sunk with them aboard instead of innocent civilians.

No, and I had such high hopes for you when you showed some understanding in my too-brief comment about the election earlier today.

The ship -- known to have carried enemy troops during the war -- was sighted by a submarine of an enemy power. ALL navies had years earlier abandoned earlier submarine warfare "rules": that you first had to surface, identify the craft positively, ensure there were no civilians, let the crew at least get into rowboats if you couldn't or wouldn't take them prisoner, and only then sink the thing. The main reason everyone abandoned these "rules" is that ships would disguise themselves, hide their guns, then sink the sub as soon as it surfaced to ID the ship. It was Germans who were best at this.

So the Soviets -- to the best of their knowledge -- shot and sank an enemy warship, one capable of carrying thousands of soldiers to kill even more of their comrades.

woof.

German 'Q-ships' were mostly used in an offensive role - i.e. as commerce raiders. British Q-ships were used to surprise, and attack, U-boats. As to Wilhelm Gustloff - a terrible tragedy, but a part of war unfortunately - pop her name down with Lusitania and many many others.

big difference to the Lusitania, though. The US were not at war (officially) when that ship was sunk.

True enough - I meant it from the 'tragedy caused by war' perspective. The Lusitania, whilst carrying mostly non-combatants, was believed by many to have been carrying weapons - not sure if conclusive proof exists to back that assertion up though.

I agree with BadDoggie. One cannot blame the soviet submarine for what it did.
Some distant relatives of mine died on the Gustlof. But I think the media should stop
reiterating the war stories.
It is true that not only Germany committed war crimes during WW II. But (a) the
Gustlof sinking was probably not a war crime and (b) what is the point now to
keep dwelling on this. We should try to work for future peace.

And I think it was lit up like Blackpool during the Glasgow Fair*
And heading toward America anyway!

* Don´t ask, I wont tell!

Hmm, sarcasm misunderstood. It was not aimed at the Dog, but rather at the present day political lingo. Never mind, woata mocha.

It has to be considered important that the Gustloff is remembered purely because of the numbers involved. But, war is war, innocents suffer, and I hate it. Now that I've married into a German family, everything has a much clearer perspective alongside the history of my own family in conflicts.

"The tragedy of the Laconia , torpedoed on 12th September 1942 by U-156 "

Lets just say that the Germans sometimes did try and do the right thing . How the hell the Americans can justify bombing a lifeboat i dont know . Needless to say , Dönitz gave the order forbidding the rescue of survivers after this event . He later stood trial for the torpedoing of the Laconia , but was found not giulty of the murder of the survivers

http://www.read-all-about-it.org/archive/z...nia_jw0304.html

Hey! Look on the bright side. At least they weren't bombing The British.

WMD ?

Thanks Tex. I needed a laugh about now.

I think that this is more about Prussia in general than the sinking of the ship per se.

Brits were also amongst the bombed survivers , Sin

"268 British Army soldiers" started off aboard the Laconia. Apparently. Allegedly. Whateverely.

Well, I think this was hardly the only case in that war where people bombed things they shouldn't have.

I´ve found an account of the incident in English .

The thing is , the German U-boat commander went out of his way to try and rescue survivors . He gave the allied distress signal for torpedoed ships , and was actually towing lifeboats at the time of the bombing .

http://mattstodayinhistory.blogspot.com/20...er-12-2005.html

*Sin , i was also pointing out that Brits were also on the Laconia , and therefore amongst the bombed survivors . Still , i suppose it was just a case of the Americans sticking to tradition .

Do you think that USAF pilots were using mindbending drugs way back then?

Actually she was steaming East, not West, sailing under a British flag, and according to wiki has been proven to have been carrying ammunition (mostly .303 rifle rounds). In any case the RMS Lusitania was an auxilliary cruiser and, technically, a legitimate target.

Fortunately for Britain, there weren't that many narrow-minded Brits so blinded by hate towards Americans, as the special selection we have on this board wrongly represents. Otherwise, maybe the US wouldn't have sent weapons, maybe it would have confined its operations to the Pacific instead of stepping into Yerp to (yet again) the save the Brits who have (yet again) got into some nose browsing with a mightier foe.

The Americans fought in the Pacific in WWI??? Blimey - no wonder the Japs were so pissed off with you guys in 1941.

Edit: And yet again a mightier foe?? Sorry, but when did we fight a mightier foe before WWII? If you're gonna get all pissed off at the yank bashing, fair enough, but at least get the facts right

1. No, but they did in WWII.

2. Ahem. in WWI.

No, no! You misunderstand! We, we very special few, we Band of Brothers(and Sisters) wankerswarriors for the wanking working day, don´t hate all Americans, we just hate YOU! We like GI, GI good! Love long time!
Now I´d like to thank GWB for saving us yet again in the War Against Terror! And whom without we wouldn´t even be fighting it! Thanks George!
That´s my chances of getting a green card right out of the door then!
How we can go from Nazis to WWI then Iwo Jima then Afganistan in one post I´ll never quite grasp!

Errrr. Right. Of course. I'd forgotten how we nearly lost that one.

I am still trying to figure this one out. Is this like a ship on a conveyor belt?

It's history in a nutshell. Decisions, you know. Neuron 1 talks to neuron 2, 3, 4... 10,000,000, and then up comes Woody, or FDR, and says - you know what, let's go bomb some life bo... um, I mean, let's go fight against the mustache dude too, help out that fat dude with the cigar and the funny accent. Afghanistan was a bit later though.

Oh, and I'm not American (your hate will be accepted with a warm welcome anyway).

Oh a Red Sea Pedestrian, never noticed that! I´m a Porridge Wog myself !

heh, that's good, can I use it?

Sure!

Wait a fucking minute! This cannot be your name Oh lurking one! Craic_Hitler WTF!
Where did he go?

Well, since history doesn't run control experiments, we will never know. What we will know, on the other hand, is that Britain were begging, pleading, screaming for Woody to get the Yanks into the war. If they'd done it after the sinking of the Lusitania, maybe it could have ended before Verdun got serious.

Ah found him!
Craic_Hitler

Can you not read ? Try reading the link , i know its in German , so is probably above your level of intelligence , but get an adult to translate it for you , and you will understand

I think we do - we were nowhere near losing WWI - I would contend that the most useful contribution made by American groundtroops was that it caused the Germans to take to the offensive in early 1918, which, ultimately, helped crack the German army for good.

The German army wasnt cracked through any ground offensive , but because of the blockade of German sea ports , leading to catastropic conditions at home . Indeed it was this unrest on the home front which helped create Hitlers inane hate of all things Jewish , who he blamed for said unrest , and the "stab in the back ". The German army were regarded as undefeated after the war . In all probabillity the war of brainless attrician would have carried on for many years if not for the port blockade .

Oh! Shut up you tart. If we blindly hated Americans we wouldn't be taking the piss out of you on a constant basis.

Humphs, I take your point, but the 1918 offensive weakened the army significantly, and in the late summer of 1918 the allies, particularly the British, were scoring significant success in open battle. I think the best assesment is that the blockade created the environment that allowed us to start to win battles where it counted - those two factors together, with the certain knowledge that U.S. troops were pouring into Europe made the Germans chuck it all in.

Agreed Jimbo

Nice comeback putz, but tell me where were the "survivers" buried?

Laconia incident

Obviously you still havn´t found an adult to translate , so i will sum it up for you .

A German U-boat commander torpedoed a British ship . Said ship was carrying Italian P.O.W´s .
U-boat commander started rescue action of the survivors . Called for international assistance , was in the action of towing lifeboats to safty .

American aircraft appear , and OH SURPRISE , start to drop bombs on the lifeboats ( its not like America to bomb helpless people is it , especially people on their own side , as there were also Brits on said boat )

Commander calls off rescue action . Dönitz , who had origionally okd rescue action , gives order forbidding any other such action .

At his Nurnburg trial , the prosecuters tried to make a big issue of this event . He was cleared of murdering the survivors of the torpedoed boat , who were actually killed by American bombs .The Tribunal is of the opinion that the evidence does not establish with the certainty required that Dönitz deliberately ordered the killing of shipwrecked survivors.

Dönitz was sentenced to 11 yrs imprisonment , which he served in Spandau . Many people consider this to be a very harsh sentence .

Is it a bit clearer for you now Eurovol ?

I'm sure were you to be fortunate enough to be at the bomber sights, you'd be much much better. We know that because you write so well on the interwebby.

The bombers had orders to sink the subs, they did that, bombing from a B-25 at that time was not a very accurate thing. So bombs hit the lifeboats as well. There's really no need to scream serial murderer every time an American goes to the kitchen to get a knife. Whether the orders to sink the subs were moral or not is something that could be debated (not very thoroughly, since we don't have too much of the facts available), but to say the bombers were going for the lifeboats is sensationalism at its worst.

You forgot the bit about the clearly visible red cross flags covering their deck guns.

It was a B-24


So what, huh? See, that's the problem we have with a trigger-happy cowboy mentality. Whoops! Did we just shoot the head off a baby girl! SORRY!!! Blama-blama-blama-blama! Subtle really isn't in your lexicon, is it?