Life in the Kreuzberg district of Berlin

Hello everyone,
I am going to study at Humboldt University in September... Lots of people on here and other people I have spoken with have suggested Kreuzberg would be a good place to live (young, fun, student atmosphere, cafes, clubs etc) however I have spoken with at least 3 people who have strongly suggested for me not to live there saying its dangerous etc etc.. I am a very strong, independent person...are these people over exaggerating or what?

Cheers
Krista

Yeah, I think they're exaggerating...Maybe there are more dangerous areas than others (Kreuzberg is pretty large), but I live there (near Schlesiches Tor) and if anything would prefer a bit more danger...it's a little bit Smurfy here. A lot of that stuff is subjective though, and depends on your own comfort levels--to visit for a week or so might be nice, check out Prenzlauerberg, Friedrichshain and Kreuzberg, maybe Neukolln, see what you prefer. There seems to be a very accepted form of racism against Turkish people in Berlin though, it's strange, when I moved here many people whom I would consider to be open-minded were very comfortable making comments about "all the Turkish people" in Kreuzberg (where there is a high population), though it hasn't been a problem for me at all, being a 28 year old gay male. I feel safer here than I did living in Friedrichshain, where the drunken behavior of people was a bit intimidating at times, but if you want total safety, then Prenzlauerberg might be the place. And they also have tons of places there where you can buy all these cool gadgets for your kitchen.

There also seems to be a VERY accepted amount of sexism from turkish men towards women though. Being a 22 year old single woman (my age when I lived there) I was VERY uncomfortable especially if I had to walk home after dark. Gay or not, you're still a man. They don't treat men like that so men have trouble seeing this.

I only noticed some kind of sexism in Kreuzberg/Neukölln to either young girls of their ethnicity or tall blondes with a great body... sort of stereotypes, but also my experience.

I guess I live in the more gentrified/quiet/boring part (nr Südstern), but I hang out all around Kreuzberg and have never experienced anything scary or intimidating. Yeah I'm somewhat biased, but I'd say it's the best district for cafes/bars/clubbing and is having a bit of a revival on that front. It's cheap too

I've had conversations with Germans who screw their faces up at the very mention of Kreuzberg, mainly due to the Turkish population, but I find that it simply adds more vibrancy and colour (the Turks, not the screwed up faces). VenusInFurs may well have a point about Turkish attitudes towards women - being a guy, I can't really judge.

The suggestion that you spend a week here and see how it feels sounds like good sense to me.

hi,
im moving to kreuzberg in a few weeks. Having always lived in muti-cultural areas i feel its very strange to have this 'this V's them attitute toward Turkish people'. what kind of effots ae currently being made to intergrate with different cultures?
es x

Hi thanks for the replies. I live in Vancouver Canada and its verrrrrrrry multicultural.. I am quite the mix myself lol so I dont mind at all that there are different people living there. One of the people who told me Kreuzberg was horrible was an older German lady.. probably not where she would pick to live anyways.. lol. I just want to go somewhere thats fun, young, with lots of students.. (sounds like Kreuzberg).. However I also want to feel comfortable enough to walk down the street.. do lots of other gals find themselves uncomfortable walking around in Kreuzberg after dark?

Cheers,
Krista

I think we get spoiled in Berlin. before I moved here I had to live in a lot of neighborhoods I felt uncomfortable in because of costs, which was fine it just meant I couldn't wear skirts/dresses (of almost any length) or tank tops as often as I wanted if I wanted to get home without any hassle. But now that I'm in berlin I find the rents aren't that much more expensive (if at all) to live in Prenzlauerberg where I feel comfortable at any time of day.

I really enjoy going out in Kberg, there's a lot of great bars, but I usually ride my bike now so that I don't have to spend ages at some of the train station.

It doesn't really matter what ethnicity they are, I usually feel a little weary when you have to pass by a large group of guys just hanging out at a train station late at night.

If you have the chance to come and look around before picking a place I suggest you do.

I'm a short brunette...it exists for everyone. And I was even harassed wearing the 'sleeping bag jacket'. It's just blatant sexism. I don't care what a woman looks like. She doesn't deserve to be treated like that in her OWN COUNTRY where women have equal rights and treatment as men.

I come from a VERY multicultural city and I have NO problem with other cultures. I just have a problem with being followed, spit on and harassed (all things that happened to me living in kreuzberg.) Think before you speak. You have no clue what you're talking about.

I don't judge all Turkish people living here, and not even all Turkish men. But there seems to be a 'group mentality' in parts of k-berg and neukölln where a lot of guys think it's ok.

If I went to Turkey I'd accept their attitude toward women because it's their country, but they are coming to a country where women have rights and I find that behaviour totally unacceptable.

I'm from Vancouver too. The problem is is that while in Vancouver, people move there from other places and accept certain cultural rules, like the fact that women have equal status to men, whereas here that doesn't seem to happen and everyone is ok with that for some reason.
I think around Sudstern or Bergmannstrasse is ok, but avoid living near Kottbusser Tor or Görlitzer Bahnhof. Also because of the junkies that like to hang out there.

I've lived in Kreuzberg for a few years and never felt unsafe or threatened whatsoever. I do agree though that some sketchy drug addicts and alcoholics (who are all German btw) hang around Kottbusser Tor and Schlesisches Tor, but if you don't bother them they will not bother you. It is far, far safer than walking around alone at night in most American cities.

As for Turkish men, they do tend to be somewhat macho but I feel it's mostly a put-on. Again, don't provoke them and they won't bother you. I find it more interesting to live in a multicultural area than in one of the neighborhoods full of young white hipster poseurs, but everyone has their own tastes.

I never provoked anyone. I'm just speaking from my own experiences and I don't appreciate getting called a racist because I have bad feelings about living in a neighbourhood where I had a lot of problems.

I hardly consider spitting on a girl, calling her a whore or following her home a 'macho put on'

I know that other people haven't had such bad experiences, and good for them, but I know lots of other women that had the same problems.

Venus, i agree with your experiences here, i was in Kreuzberg on the weekend in the daytime and twice i had a stupid little confrontational thing go off from some guy.
I think its acceptable to say that different countries/cultures/social demographic groups have different attitudes to women. I also wondered if i was local would i respond back and think nothing of it, as in its an unthinking exchange:
ie; guy says "you are a whore", girl says in return "you are useless piece of trash" etc.

I noticed last year in England, a guy watch a woman walk up the road, then he shouted after her "I'd fuck that". She turned round and smiled, delighted at this subtle come-on.
When one is polite and middleclass its simply baffling.

Ya I don't get it. I'd never respond positively to rude comments like that, I don't care what their nationality is. It could be Brad Pitt and I'd still want to slap them in the face. you just don't talk to someone like that.

Most German women that I know have a 'look the other way' attitude at it, and it bothers me. I think we should speak up about sexual harrassment

I don't mind leering and cat calls, but when it borders into harassment it's another thing. I've been followed and did respond with 'leave me alone', and was not left alone. I was spat on. After a year I just felt like I had to move. It was too unpleasant for me.

Never said something else. It just happened that I lived for some months with my girlfriend from Neukölln, and she and her girlfriends never got molested (not speaking of the moments when I went out together with her), so I just stated my point of view, which is, that it obviously doesn't happen everytime/to everyone... And imo it's best to try it out, as someone said above.
However, it's not a must to go to Kreuzberg if you wanna have fun and a district full of students (in fact, parts of Kreuzberg can be rather boring - remember that it's like a big city on its own). Mitte, Friedrichshain and Prenzlauer Berg are somewhat similar. Just not THAT multicultural.

German Court Convicts Turk of "Honor Killing"


I feel it's a well-known fact that people who identify with islamic values tend to have views on women which many consider problematic.

This is a similar cultural problem in Britain.
However i wasnt saying the guy was Turkish. I think what you have quoted is obviously horrific and terrible, but its also several steps up from making a cheap comment to a passing woman in the street.
What i was trying to suggest is that for some strata of society, random verbal abuse is a cultural norm, almost equivalent to acknowledgement of the person's presence.
Obviously i think it totally sucks, but im just trying to see if there is a more sociological perspective that one can put on it.

Ok so Kreuzberg isnt like the downtown eastside? (At least not in some areas)... but also coming from Vancouver, I think that Vancouver (as well as many other cities) is different... We are used to having a mix of different people, and I think the people that move here accept the cultural rules... I think perhaps what the problem is in Germany is that the Turkish people make up such a huge minority which creates conflict. (e.g Hongkouver anyone?) I know that any big group of guys can be intimidating when walking down the street and in Kreuzberg it seems like its mostly big groups of Turkish guys... I just dont want to feel uncomfortable in the place that I am living... but I mean everyones experiences are difference..

thanks for the replies guys.

Perhaps I'm pointing out the obvious, but Kreuzberg was part of West Berlin, quite popular among alternative folks in the 80ies, while Prenzlauer Berg, Friedrichshain and Mitte (i.e. the traditional Mitte Bezirk, it was fusioned with the western Tiergarten and Wedding some years ago) were east of the Wall.

Prenzlauer Berg has probably undergone the most visible change, from being a neighbourhood for artists and also opponents of the GDR to one of the hip places, prefered by newcomers to Berlin. The German wiki article on Prenzlauer Berg is quite interesting, especially the discussion, complaints about gentrification etc.

Kreuzberg was my number one choice to live when I first moved to Berlin - but as my job was very far west (near potsdam) it wasn't realistic for me to commute so far every day. I think its a great neighborhood and as you describe yourself as a "strong, independent person" I really don't think you will have any major problems. It is always advisable to have a look around a neighborhood before you move there and commit. Get a cheap flight over or have a friend scope the area for you, just to be sure. Because there are a few women on TT who've had negative experiences, then you are especially advised to check out the vibe at night, on your own.

Good point, also areas dont remain static of course, and probably a lot of the alternative types in the 80s upped and moved elsewhere as a lot of people only nail their colours to the mast of alternative lifestyle for a period of years rather than a lifetime, so again the population of the area changes.
I dont like areas with swaggering low-self-esteem males with chips on shoulders, but then i also dont like areas with pantalooned men in their 30s with dreadlocks and ethically sourced wooden pushchairs. Im just a curmudgeon.

Views which have to be checked at the door when moving to a WESTERN country. Seriously, if you love it so much, stay in your own fucking country. I can accept others cultural beliefs but when it comes to basic rights I wont be treated like that by ANYONE. I don't care where you come from or what your religion is. It's unacceptable in this country. If a German did it I'd be equally pissed off.

Well this is the worrying thing, isnt it? "We" are keen not to step on people's cultural beliefs which can lead to being tolerant of really misogynist behaviour.
Q: is the west just super tolerant and right-on because its so liberal, or is it super tolerant because actually, deep down, a lot of people dont really care because its women who are being targeted.
There was a thread recently about some archbishop in the Christian church in the UK saying that Sharia law would probably have to be incorporated into UK law. Im all for tolerant Christianity but thats a little extreme.

however this is travelling far from the original point which was that Kreuzberg seems ok but you take your chances, much as one does in many districts of many towns all over the world. Its not Pleasantville, but equally its not Kinshasa.

That's always been my worry. We've come so far as women but there are still such strong tones of sexism in our culture. I feel like in cases of harrassment involving immigrants, the police are unwilling to be called racist over helping a woman. Why is that?

I'll add that I think there are nice areas in Kreuzberg. It's a big district. It's just parts of it that have problems.

What would you guys say are the nice parts and what would be the ones to absolutely avoid? I know that its hard to give a clear cut answer but any advice?

Around Kottbusser Tor and Görlitzer Bahnhof aren't too nice. Bergmannkiez and close to Schlesisches Tor I always found ok. Actually I love the Bergmannkiez...it's totally funky and lively.

You can divide Kreuzberg in two, or, more precisely (as I do it), in five parts (or Kieze how they call it in Berlin). The two parts are SO36 and SW 61 (or Kreuzberg 61/36), after the old postal codes. SW 61 (so=southwest) is (roughly!) the more bourgeois part with less immigrants, SO36 the rougher part with more immigrants and the left wing youth (and more subculture in general).

More precisely:
There is Friedrichstadt, the northwest of Kreuzberg (north of the canal Landwehrkanal i.e. Gitschiner Straße, west of Prinzenstraße). Mainly ugly buildings (due to heavy destruction during WWII), mainly apartment houses, only some interesting cultural stuff like two museums. Don't go there if you wanna have fun with young people...
South of Landwehrkanal is the "classic" SW 61, Chamissokiez/Bergmannkiez. Nice Old buildings, students, bars, restaurants, but all rather settled down and rather relaxed. simply bourgeois, a little bit alternative. Only three or four clubs around, but many cocktail bars and similar stuff.
East of this part (east of Südstern up to Kottbusser Damm) is the Graefekiez. This area boosted in the last five years, very nice bars and restaurants, more immigrants and multiculti than in Bergmannkiez, but also relaxed and rather quiet, no clubs around. Especially around the Landwehrkanal (Fraenkelufer, Planufer), this area is one of the most beautiful in Kreuzberg.

SO36 can be divided in two (similar) parts: The classical SO36 around Oranienstraße and Kottbusser Tor (with all the immigrants, punks, junkies and first of may demos and traditional left wing alternative scene) and the Wrangelkiez east of it, mainly south of Skalitzer Str..
Oranienstraße is one of the most lively streets in whole Berlin. Bars, Restaurants, small nice shops and clubs. Some very beautiful old buildings border to some of the ugliest in whole Berlin just north of Kottbusser Tor (one of the roughest, but also interesting places in kreuzberg). Here is definitely where the action is.
Wrangelkiez also boosted in the last years. Once a traditional area for immigrants and poor people, now one of the hippest and most multicultural areas in whole Berlin. Many clubs, hip bars, nice restaurants, but also, still, one of the poorest areas in Berlin and problems because of this.

I prefer Wrangelkiez and the area around Oranienstraße, although it is rougher than Bergmannkiez. It's just where the real action and energy is.

I lived in Kreuzberg/Schoneberg (near the victoria park for alomst sixmonths when I was in Berlin, and had absolutley no problems...would avoid the kottbusser tor ares though!
Good luckl

Hi Krista, you could look at the demographics of some of the people posting here & see if they're like you -- maybe some of the Canadian women would be representative, but maybe not as you describe yourself as an ethnic mixture. VenusinFurs may be a bit out of the usual demographic as I get the impression (hopefully I'm not mistaken) that although she's early 20s, she's a property owner in Prenzlauerberg and is part German. I'm a tall curvy American of No. European descent so visually indistinguishable from a German, in my early 40s but may pass for mid-30s especially at night. I've had a few incidents like w/in the 1st week of moving here I was propositioned by 3 different men (including one ethnic German) during the course of a single trip home, when wearing what I considered a fashionable business skirt slightly above the knee. That was on the ring-Bahn north side of town & walking in a dark spot near Charite-Wedding where I was staying at a guest house for a few days. Coming from California, so far I've felt most comfortable in Kreuzberg (I was lucky to have a little sublet in Graefekiez for a few months). I regularly walked up to Kottbusser Tor which is sort of like a very tame Berlin version of SF's Tenderloin. I never felt funny walking there in the wee hours or being at the U-bahn alone. PZLberg was too non-diverse for my tastes but had some nice restaurants, tho not many clubs.

Neuköln has a bit of an interesting tension and I've had 3 incidents in a month, one with a youth fairly aggressively trying to pick me up on the bus (I know he was Arab b/c we conversed enough for me to ask his ethnicity) -- with him I just had to tell him gently that he needed to be a bit more polite, given my (advanced) age. Another was biking on the street asking directions of 3 youths (probably not ethnic Germans) on the sidewalk, one of whom was very polite & totally helped. But as I was biking away the other two yelled sexually explicit requests in English which I actually had to laugh at (it was like they were trying it out in English). I guess I'm pretty mellow about these things, but in my 20s I might have felt more angry or threatened. I also asked directions of an ethnic German couple once & as they responded I could clearly see they were on some serious drugs so that was a bit freaky.

Some guidelines: skirts can be risky, I wouldn't wear them except in a group (this is along the lines of when in Rome...). On the southeast side of town don't sit in the far back of a bus late at night. Avoid approaching groups of young men and watch out for people who may be high. I can't really say my experiences have pointed the finger at one particular ethnicity, so I'd caution against drawing facile conclusions. Neuköln, though, is really the only place I've lived here that I'd say is a bit dicey & I have to apply some American street smarts (which I'd almost forgotten while living here). I didn't feel I stayed in Wedding long enough to draw conclusions as a place to live. For my next sublet I'll definitely try for Kreuzberg and it wouldn't matter to me which part.

Krista08, if you are mad keen to move to Kreuzberg, I dont think anyone's suggesting its a terrible place, its just a little tricky in parts. And for me, the part was round Kottbusser Tor.

I would also factor in how well you acclimatise to a foreign land, and how good your German is, as i find myself more prone to being wary simply because my language skills arent that great yet, and that sometimes makes me feel a bit vulnerable. "Edgy" might be more attractive when you are settled, but when youre new to a place, everything can feel edgy anyway.

Nothing beats a good look-see round the area before you commit to any apartment.

Ya I'd second this.

Sorry if I seemed a bit aggressive in some of my posts. I ust wanted to warn because of my experiences. I wouldn't write off the entire district as a whole though either. I think it's a great idea to spend some time in any area before you move there.

Hi everyone, thanks for all your replies. They have provided me with quite some insight I am not mad keen on moving to any particular district in Berlin really... just was curious because a lot of people said Kreuzberg sounded like what I was looking for and then I met 2 people here in Canada who 100% ABSOLUTELY advised me not to go there... made it seem like a lot worse than what I reckon it is. Of course in any big city you are going to have good areas and bad areas... VenusinFurs.. I am from Surrey actually and my area (Fleetwood) is a lot nicer than around Whalley (Surrey Central)... I think as women we can take precautions in any city.. One may get catcalled or yelled obscenities at for wearing a skirt in Berlin, but I've also seen it in Vancouver as well. Well with every experience there is something to learn... I lived in Karlsruhe Germany in 2006 as an Au pair and its definitely going to be quite different moving to Berlin! Lots of people suggested looking around for a place before I go, but I am just nervous about signing up for something and then getting there and realizing its absolutely horrid! Anyways... I appreciate all the replies

Cheers,
Krista

Hi everyone, thanks for all your replies. They have provided me with quite some insight I am not mad keen on moving to any particular district in Berlin really... just was curious because a lot of people said Kreuzberg sounded like what I was looking for and then I met 2 people here in Canada who 100% ABSOLUTELY advised me not to go there... made it seem like a lot worse than what I reckon it is. Of course in any big city you are going to have good areas and bad areas... VenusinFurs.. I am from Surrey actually and my area (Fleetwood) is a lot nicer than around Whalley (Surrey Central)... I think as women we can take precautions in any city.. One may get catcalled or yelled obscenities at for wearing a skirt in Berlin, but I've also seen it in Vancouver as well. Well with every experience there is something to learn... I lived in Karlsruhe Germany in 2006 as an Au pair and its definitely going to be quite different moving to Berlin! Lots of people suggested looking around for a place before I go, but I am just nervous about signing up for something and then getting there and realizing its absolutely horrid! Anyways... I appreciate all the replies

Cheers,
Krista

Hi everyone, thanks for all your replies. They have provided me with quite some insight I am not mad keen on moving to any particular district in Berlin really... just was curious because a lot of people said Kreuzberg sounded like what I was looking for and then I met 2 people here in Canada who 100% ABSOLUTELY advised me not to go there... made it seem like a lot worse than what I reckon it is. Of course in any big city you are going to have good areas and bad areas... VenusinFurs.. I am from Surrey actually and my area (Fleetwood) is a lot nicer than around Whalley (Surrey Central)... I think as women we can take precautions in any city.. One may get catcalled or yelled obscenities at for wearing a skirt in Berlin, but I've also seen it in Vancouver as well. Well with every experience there is something to learn... I lived in Karlsruhe Germany in 2006 as an Au pair and its definitely going to be quite different moving to Berlin! Lots of people suggested looking around for a place before I go, but I am just nervous about signing up for something and then getting there and realizing its absolutely horrid! Anyways... I appreciate all the replies

Cheers,
Krista

AH didnt mean to post that 3 times.

You're just showing how much you appreciate our replies!

I am a Canadian who moved to Kreuzberg for 4 months in early February. I've just found this forum, and frankly I cannot believe my eyes. I am so sad that a perfectly valid and innocent question about the ups and downs of life in Kreuzberg degenerated so fast into a diatribe about immigrants - namely, Turkish men. Can I just point out a few things?

1) These sexist, cat-calling yobbos mentioned so often in this thread, are mostly born-German, some probably of Turkish parents. This self righteous talk about 'behaving properly in OUR country' is just racist.
2) Kreuzberg is an enormous district, spanning some very affluent and centrally located neighbourhoods, as well as poorer 'hoods with lots of housing estates. It's bigger than many towns, in its own right. To talk about it as one area doesn't make sense.
3) When evaluating this fascinating and diverse area, it is key to mention such delights as the gorgeous areas on both sides the Landwehr canal nr. Grimmstrasse, the fabulous (and Turkish!) Tues/Fri market, the happening cafe and bar scene, the excellent parks and the brilliant Kreuzberg museum to name just a few.
4) Kottbusser Tor has been getting a bad rap in this discussion. Mostly because of 'drug addicts' and 'immigrants'. What about the cluster of camoflage-wearing neo-Nazis I saw grouped there yesterday? How come Turkish men get slagged off, and these frightening gutter-scum get off without a mention?
5) Turkey itself is a secularized, non-fundamentalist state that is rapidly modernising and wants entry into the E.U. Yes, Turks are (mostly) Muslim - but to discuss Turkish immigrants in terms of their being scary Islamisist and 'other' is just redneck bad taste.
6) Turkish labour was invited to Kreuzberg in the 60s and 70s to fill the jobs that Germans did not want to do. The economy of West Berlin depended on their labour. Discussing immigrants as somehow 'outside' what makes Kreuzberg what it is, is not just impossible but also offensive.

Just one word about Neonazis at Kottbusser Tor, Limey (I agree with most of your views): In general, Neonazis avoid whole Kreuzberg like the plague (they know why!). Maybe it came up very recently, but I never saw any of them around that area.

Toby, that's reassuring. Lack of neo-Nazis is another reason to enjoy Kreuzberg! I hope I misinterpreted what I saw: the men at Kottbusser Tor were all white, middle aged, rough looking and in army fatigue trousers with jackboots and khaki jackets - some obese, most very pale and sick-looking - not soldiers or police. Perhaps they were not Neo Nazis but some other group but it's hard to think who else they could have been - can you shed light?

(In any case: lots of Turkish-extraction folk there is so TOTALLY not a reason to avoid it. Krista, please know this).

What are they? Junkies and alcoholics, hence the "pale and sick-looking" appearance. Nothing more insidious than that.

Totally agree with everything else you wrote btw.

I just moved to Kreuzberg a month ago (so the "advice from a newbie" filter applies here), near Gortlitzer Banhof and I have to say I really love it here. There's lots of cheapo places to eat, things are always happening, and the Turkish Market on Tuesday and Friday is a great alternative to supermarket shopping. There is also a plethora of splendiforous graffiti that has yet to be topped by other areas, even Friedrichshain which boasts more of a punky young urban crowd than even Kreuzberg perhaps. The landwerkanal is GORGEOUS to walk along in the morning (or during the romantic hours of the evening). As for the Turkish men thing, I've been hit on way more by German punks than by Turkish guys, and never in my own backyard. Usually that happens on trains or at train stations. That said, my beau and I did have a rather nasty run in with some men at a kabab shop one night where they tried to choke my b/f by the collar. But that's a whole other story... Point being: Prenzlauerberg is a good place to move if you're more of the coffee-shop / wine bar type gal, Kreuzberg if you're looking for something a bit more edgy. Just my two cents (which when converted to euro is really more like 1 cent).

I agree with VenusInFurs, Kreuzberg is not really like many people think, specially if you are a west girl or a modern woman, (you can get sexist insults, or machist provocations, what make a girl feel really bad).
I know that because of my girlfriend, she is german, and she already had three times similar problems with muslim teenagers. Of course it doesn´t happen every day, and not all muslim teenager are the same, but it happens sometimes. Berlin is not the paradise of the tolerance that many people believe.

In my opinion, the problem is that normally we don´t know or we don´t want to know about the muslim comunity and its culure. We use to try to be "comprehensive" with them, and tolerant, even if we have no contact with them, except to enjoy the exotism of its nice vegetables shop, or turkish restaurants (the same as when we do a tourist trip around Egypt, for exemple).

It could be dramatic to ask muslim girls or boys what in his families happens, the truth is hard to hear.
We can read constantly in the newspapers about girls who are beaten by their fathers, cause they want to study something, or just becuse they want to choose their boyfriend, but as girls they has no choice to decide it. This sounds for us like terrible Middle Ages stories, but then we don´t want to criticize them because of fear of being racist.
The Western countries, (and specially Germany) are full of prejudices. We cannot criticize anyone except ourselves.

You can also find modern turkish, and muslim intelectuals (like designers, writters, film directors, etc) in Kreuzberg, but they are a very small part of the muslim society. If you go below Kreuzberg to Neukölln, the reality is a deep muslim guetto, sometimes even worse than in other muslim countries.

I was living for a long time in Madrid and London, and i´ve never seen such a untolerance as the aggressiveness of some young muslims of Kreuzberg and Neukölln. Wedding is even worse...

Why should a woman be afraid to wear a skirt or a cool dress walking alone in the underground?
Or what happen when 3 turkish teenager come to ask me: "hey german fagot! do you have a problem"?. Then i have to respond: "hey brother! It´s everything ok...".
Well, i´m afraid that´s racism against western people, and: racism against the people of the country that gave the turkish the chance to live and work here. That´s patetic
Everybody speak about the Eastern German racism, but nobody about the disaster of the turkish integration, and about the racism and intolerance of the muslim comunity.

The answer to this conflict is the integration; this is a big problem and the politicians don´t want to talk about that.

They have to make a strong integration plan, otherwise Kreuzberg and Berlin will become a hard and unhospitable city to live, same as happened in Paris or Marseille. I don´t want to be dramatic, but it becoming slowly like that. I live since 10 years here and i see it.

(Sorry for the long text)

Well, here we have it in a nutshell, folks -- what I'd qualify as fairly typical internal conflict by a citizen of a country struggling with its not-so-new reality as an immigration country. I think abell's post is quite revealing for those of us from North America. I wonder if "some of his best friends" are Turkish? Or of the many "Turks" who are actually German citizens? Well, probably not. Let me just point out that probably none of us would want roving bands of teenagers to be designated our primary cultural representatives (and I certainly include German youths). Unfortunately they make themselves all too visible.

Haha: This is simply because the ghettos in London and Madrid aren't located in the inner city and it would be much too expensive for any of the poorer muslims to afford a flat there. And please don't tell me, there are not the same problems over there in the really poor districts. Most of the problems arise from unemployment and being poor - being german or muslim comes far behind.

-"And please don't tell me, there are not the same problems over there in the really poor districts. Most of the problems arise from unemployment and being poor - being german or muslim comes far behind."-

This is the typical response to this conflict. We cannot mix different factors wich have nothing to do. Berlin has actually a serious economical and unemployment problem, and this affects in the same way to all of us, muslims, germans, americans or africans who live here. And, if for exemple, i´m unhappy because i don´t find a job in Berlin, or because this weather is bad, or whatever, i go somewhere else, but i´m not gonna start hating germans. I´ll always respect everyone.

I know foreigners from Israel, India or Japan living here, who have the same problems to find a job as the muslims, and anyway they accept and respect each other, trying to integrate into this society.

I say again, the problem is the integration into the german society, and into the MODERN SOCIETY. It must be a strong integration plan, from the kindergarden to the highschool, giving a tolerant and universal education . That´s the essencial factor for the muslim conflict in Europe.

Now the muslim comunity is asking for exclusive muslim schools (muslim schools that will teach the girls to accept the inferiority of women compared with men, and to live under male power, for exemple)...
My god, that would be a complete disaster for future generations of Muslims growing here. German history is full of mistakes, and this could be another one.

@abell: The foreigners of India or the rest of asia is often also not integrated into the german society. And there are enough german people who are unemployed, young and aggressive. Same here as some muslim juveniles. There must be something else... I guess you're talking simply about different kind of people. I'm sure you and the indian and japanese people are well educated and NOT born here? See the difference? If you grow up in a poor family not well educated and not having any chance at all (at least you feel like this) you will get aggressive. No matter if you have muslim, french or german roots. Yes, there IS some kind of an integration problem, but it ain't that focussed on muslim people as you think...

Hello,

I have been reading this string of posts with some interest for a while now as I moved to Kreuzberg a month ago. Now as I drink some wine and wait for my friends to arrive it seems as good a time as any to respond. I live on Kottbusser Damm, about three steps from the Schonleinstr. U-Bahn. I am from Canada, I speak no German yet, and at 5'10 stand out on the street. I have had no problems here. None. I love this neighbourhood, and hope to stay in this part of it for the duration of my time in Germany. I have gone for long walks during the day and walked home from parties and the bar in the middle of the night without issue. I reccomend this area to everyone looking to move to Germany.

Regarding the Turkish integration issues I wonder if any of you have read the recent article in last weeks Economist on the issue? I found it fascinating. The statistics on the issue reveal some interesting things, namely, that most Turkish people in Germany are middle class - they own small businesses, pay their taxes and work incredibly hard. There are however some problems.

The Turkish working migration to Germany started in the 70s because Germany needed cheap labour to work in mining and manufacturing. When the mines closed many people migrated to big cities and congregated in certain neighbourhoods such as Neukolln, which borders Kreuzberg. There exists in certain pockets of these communities groups of people who belong now neither to Turkish nor German society - not able to integrate culturally or linguistically into either understandably creates some angst and problems. Education is an issue, with drop out rates much higher if you are of turkish origin (many of the individuals one would describe as having integration issues are in fact second and third generation Germans) as well a violent crimes. The difficulty of course is not so much that they are turkish, but that these people are both Turkish and poor. It is hard to go to school and study and do well, when your family life occurs in one language, your tv broadcasts programming in turkish and your schooling/job require another. When are you supposed to do homework if you must work in order to help support your family? Or properly learn the language when the German government encouraged your parents to come over, live in mining communities that were entirely turkish and didn't encourage them to learn the language because the original plan was for these workers to be temporary? This has created a bubble where it is possible to live in Germany and speak only Turkish and have a relatively complete life. When representatives of the Turkish government came to Germany recently and told the Turkish community to resist integrating it created real fears within Germany. But part of the problem is Germany - Although many are legally citizens of Germany, Turks are in many ways not allowed to integrate, they are accepted, but not entirely - we blame turkish youth for problems with violence, we are wary of islam as a religion, though in ithis case likely unnecessarily (FYI Turkey has the most progressive forms of islam in the muslim world). I agree with Angela Merkel that integration is the key, but part of integration is understanding - something that needs to occur on both sides. And Abell - they are funding integration and schooling in a major way across Neukolln. The majority of the people in my Sprachschule are turkish and are on integration courses, the local highschools get extra funding to support their pupils - so people are making an effort. But these things take time, and we will not see change overnight.

All in all I like living near this turkish neighbourhood, it means I have access to cool markets, different cultures, delicious donairs etc. I want my life to be full of exciting and interesting things and to meet and see different cultures. I expect there to be some friction as we all adjust to each other, but that friction causes learning and growth for everyone and surely in the end that's a good thing.

Good night! and happy drinking, where ever in Kreuzberg you are!