I realize this is long but Read it because it is very important.

Right off the bat, to make it clear- I am Serbian. You will feel this soon.

The Kosovar Albanians have last Sunday one-sidedly proclaimed independence from Serbia of whom the providence belongs to by law. It has been so after the 500 year war with the Ottoman Empire, after the Austro-Hungarian invasion, the 2 world wars and even the last Balkan wars of 99. The end result is a UN resolution 1244 that stated the Borders can lawfully never be changed but that Serbian military is also not allowed to be present on this part of the country. KFOR troops have been stationed to provide objective security for all that reside there, especially for the current minority comprised of Serbs and other non-Albanian ethnicities but has been as expected doing a bad job. As a result, and although completely ignored by the western media over 150 churches and holly places have been destroyed and burned to the ground by the Muslim Albanians that reside there now. Serbs in fact, not Albanians were forced to flee from Kosovo hence there is now a 90-10 percent population imbalance favoring the Albanians.

After the war of 99 UN resolution 1244 stated all this above and set a date of Dec 12th 2007 for the two sides to reach a compromise through dialogue. The Albanian leaders, (mainly Hashim Thachi, their president) who were by the way leaders of the Kosovar liberation Army during the war, a guerilla group proclaimed by the FBI to be a terrorist organization a few year earlier have stalled until the deadline and they knew it would be time that US would back them, hence the American flags on Odeon’s platz on Sunday. Serbia has remained the position of reaching a compromise through continue delegation no matter what it takes, because what is sure is that this land is for the Serbs holly, where our culture, religion and everything Serbian has been born. This means that every Serb feels so attached to this land that it can't possibly be take away. As long as there are Serbs, Kosovo will remain their land. BUT they have always said that they eliminate a military response to this issue and further dialogue must continue to reach the best possible solution to the issue. The Albanians are done with talking and so are America and Germany and all the countries that have recognized Kosovo’s independence. I do not quite see it why America needs to be involved in the first place. Perhaps it is their godly heart and vision for the world to spread "democracy" and "freedom" everywhere. It must be their high moral obligation to help the world by doing all it must, even war. All that western political BS, to excuse me. It is all for personal gain. As always.

So on Sunday they have proclaimed independence. This move is simply put illegal and all the countries that recognize this one-sided independence are in fact breaking the law. US is the leading player of course, as always steering conflicts that have an astonishing chance of very easily developing into a full war, and all this for personal interest of course like all over the world, naming it as a cause for "democracy and freedom". You have every right to call me prejudice now for I say it proudly I am Serbian but you then also have a moral obligation to get educated about the situation. And definitely not form CNN and other major western media. A good place to start is to You Tube Noam Chomsky talking about the NATO bombing of Serbia in 99. Noam Chomsky is one of the world’s most famous scholars and I need not say more of him because you should already know his speeches. See this and all other of his speeches to get a different idea of what is really going on in the world and in American politics. You have a moral obligation to get educated before you express opinions and before you vote for your leaders. This is true not only with the problems in the Balkans but in the world in general.

So the large Serbian population is setting up a protest in Marienplatz this Saturday the 23rd starting at 3. Do come and listen to the other side of the story. Perhaps you learn something. This event has a huge impact on world politics since it is simply put a direct breaking a written law and other nations that have not recognized Kosovo’s independence did so because they realize they will also be affected by such failed policies. Countries such as Russia, Spain and China have the same problems with other ethnic minorities and this event gives that group a chance to separate, regardless of what the law states. And do not think that these countries that do not recognize this independence do so because they feel morally obliged to help Serbia because we are friend or something. It is simply put all out of personal interest-tat is the world we live on today folks- and these countries have their own legitimate concerns to deal with.

So get educated and don't be another ignorant goat that follows the prejudiced statements expressed by powerful media and people like Bush and Rice. Be very weary of this situation because it can very easily lead to war that will undoubtedly affect everyone reading this. Listen to Chomsky on you tube.

I hope this paper helped you somehow or got you to think. Please pray for peace for whichever side you choose to support. I hate no one, no single nation or culture for I am an educated and thinking man, but I do hate ignorance and stubbornness. I am a Serb. no doubt about it and I love my people but hate no one. I do hate injustice esspecialy when it affects me personaly-like any man would.

So the protest will take place on Marienplatz at 3 this saturday. God belss.

Go Kosovo! Sorry, but Serbia lost its rights by its own actions. Next should be Taiwan and Tibet and possibly Dafur!

I'd support Serbia, heck I'd even have supported holding together Yugoslavia had Slobodan Milosevic had not reverted to chauvenistic hyper-nationalism and effectively made all non-Serbs second class human beings in their own countries. Unfortunately this means that I and probably most people in Europe cannot and will not support continued Serbian ascendancy at the expense of others. Recent history made the breakup of Yugoslavia and the independence of Kosovo inevitable and it is time Serbia woke up to that and started working WITH rather than AGAINST the world at large.

Declarations of independence always are. Next.

Does Balkanization beckon anew

No one? Not even the people you're protesting against?

No. It's not. Not unless the person reading it is a Serb or comes from Kosovo.

So how many of your relatives took part in the ethnic cleansing? How many of your friends and family rooted for that fucking pig Milosevic and that pigfucker Mladic?


That's how most claims of independence run since the occupying or controlling country is rarely willing to just let go. It generally requires a war.


Slavery was legal for thousands of years, too. What's your fucking point? That your old laws give you the right to control the destinies of others who don't wish to be further slaughtered by your countrymen? The same countrymen who themselves declared independence from a state they no longer wished to be a part of?


Fuck you. America's declaration of independence was also "illegal", as were Estonia's, Latvia's, Lithuania's, Croatia's... and Serbia's, too. Bite a big one.


I'll be there, with pictures of the victims of the Serbian ethnic cleansing. You remember the "cleansing", right? Fifteen years ago Bosnia declared independence from Yugoslavia, was recognized by the international community and admitted to the UN soon afterwards. The Bosnian Serbs immediately created the Republika Srpska with the idea of creating an ethnically pure Serbian enclave in northern and eastern Bosnia.

Your people spent years killing Muslims and now you're upset because a big group of pro-Western muslims doesn't want you running their lives anymore. Fuck you.

woof.

Pat Buchanan? Absurd far right US bigot?

You Serbs really know how to pick your supporters.

Well you have obviously not folloowe dmy suggestion of getting educated first. You didn't even listen to Chomsky on you tube like I suggested.

Than read the article above by Buchanan. And get back to me with questions.

Like I said you have a moral obligation to get educated if you wish to project an oppinion. This means being able to back what you say up. You can't really do that as of yet but if yuo think you can please do try.

Hear hear to everything to BD has just said.

Serbia: the Milwall of international relations:

“No-one likes us and we don’t care.”

@ eurovol: ...then Basque country, bits of Georgia (I mean who cares about those, right?), Catalonia and that part of Belgium, the name of which escapes me, or would it be different in the case of an EU country? And if it is different, then why?

Bato, this is Toytown Germany. We don't do that sort of thing around here.

Sorry , but your post that "there was no genocide in Kosovo" beggars belief , and as for Putin , he would support anyone who stood agaist the Western world , just for the hell of it

See this is straigt up what I am saying. You are that typical ignorant bastard a man can't even converse with.
You are not worth this time I gave you. No need to reply if all you will say is Fuck you and nothing productve.

Debate but accurately and without profanities. There is so much hate in you that I feel disqusted we breath the same air.

i was there and witnessed ALL that was happening during the bombing. a childrens hospital and school was bombed by "smart bombs". Bombs that were illegalized after WWII becouse of their extreme inhumane destructivness were used -the name excapes me but it is the bomb that spreads in the air and destroys everything in a km squared.

you have no idea what went on down there. I was there.

@danz is it different? No it is not different. A nation's right to independence and self determination is universal.

Would anyone else agree with KingBilly?

What about playing the ball and not the man?

The Bell the Bad Bato race is on. Who'll finish their post first?

Sure I'd agree with KingBilly.

@KingBilly, pick a topic, any topic. Just not one about Kosovo, ok?

There is a huge difference in those countries with the exception of possibly Georgia. Sorry for leaving Georgia out, but I am still not convinced that it is a "real" situation or one that supports a certain faction within Georgia. The news from that region is a little biased don't you know.

The rest are a bunch of maniacal separatists within Democratic countries. Hell, even California has threatened to succeed a time or two. Lets stick to real situations where real people are being denied true freedoms shall we? Huh?

Bastard? Certainly. Ignorant? You're the one denying factual history, jack. You're also the only one on this thread who has immediately turned to ad hominem attacks: rather than backing up your points by showing my responses to be wrong, you attack me personally. Fuck you. Seriously.

You're not a man. You're a Serb who, like the Japanese before, wants the world to look at him as a victim and completely ignore the facts that he was first a harsh aggressor. You don't want to converse or you would've continued a discussion of the points instead of sinking to name-calling. That's the truly sad part. You didn't even try to defend what you wrote, not even once. You knew I had you and so instead of trying to at least mitigate the damage, you decided a personal attack would be ideal. 'Cept you don't know me, you toerag.

Be careful; the Interwebs aren't nearly as anonymous as you think.

woof.

I saw Bush on the tv recently say The serbs don't want to nagotiate. in the same window was a dialogue fro mthe FM Of Serbia Vuk Jeremic saying exactly the opposite a day earlier, and a day before and so on since the thing began.
So someone must be lying! Who? Bush? or the other guy.

Well Serbia has repeatedly been saying "we will use every possible option available to a sovereign state EXCEPT millitary option" Streesing the importance of continued delegation.
The serbs have closed ambasadorial relations with countries that recognized the independence as the frst step. Some countries have done the same with Pristina.

Oh I've read chomsky. I've even studied him. And I've followed his politics but though he can be thought provoking he's just a bit too Ministry of Truth for me.


I read it but gave up half way through. This is a man who believes all homosexuals are child abusers and should be put to death. I wouldn't trust or believe a word he wrote.


Tell me Bato, are you a MIlosevic supporter? Did you support Radovan Karadzic and what happened in Mostar, Srebrenica and other parts of Bosnia? Do you think thiose are things that Serbia should be proud of? And in Kosovo, the decade long ban on Albanian schools and universities and downgrading of Albanian culture at the expense of Serbian before a frankly idiotic attempt to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Albanians. Again, are you really proud of that? Are you proud that Milosevic turned your country into an international pariah?

Your living in Germany now and can see all around of you a nation that came to terms with its awful past and moved on in a spirit of meekness and cooperation. Maybe Serbia should learn from the Germans.

OMFG! Pat Buchanan? You are quoting Pat Buchanan? Now I have seen everything. Is there like a Darwin Award for the most inappropriate link ever?

Fuck me up the ass with a chainsaw! Will wonders never cease? I'm sitting here on this thread in full agreement with BtC. I don't know what to say.

woof.

bato, i think you'd have had a little more acceptance on a forum for Serbian Nationalists rather than here. now bugger off, you aren't worth talking to.

edit: oops.

Bato-what is the solution? What is the alternative? Deny Kosovo independence, accept it back into the fold and then what? Just hope everything is hunky dory?

but strangely Bato thinks that Buchanan is a valid and well respected commentator of balance and foresight ...

Wow...isn't this more or less the same at the other Kosovo MPs proclaim independence from Serbia?

You already said "Fuck me up the ass with a chainsaw!" and my professional task for tomorrow is to invent the World's first chainsaw condom and send it over to BTC. EPO people, brace yourselves for a filing.

Yes from you first hateful response I had a feeling you were American and that we know each other. Perhaps i am wrong but i assure you you do not need to tell me to be careful. I assure you.

Try to speak like a grown up man, I have no urge to read your replys when you say stuff like this above. Yoo call me shitball, toerag, jack and again a fuck you from you to me. I don't even know what a toerag is. I don't speak that dumb street lingo so if you wish to speak to me do so in a better manner where an educated man like myself can understand you. Don't be so rude you will get nowhere.

In fact since we know each other J lets hook up and discuss this over a coffee. Howabout sat. at 3. Say we meet on Marienplatz? Good? Good.

You should never have gone drinking with him on GNO.

Batos answer would probably be to wait until KFOR pulls out , and then resume the ethnic cleansing which never happend in the first place and was just propoganda .

If BtC keeps writing like he did here tonight -- clear, concise, clever and correct -- he can chainsaw me bareback.

woof.

Stop it. I'm nearly in tears here. Is this like the start of some beautiful relationship?

Oh only took them 18 years to do so. Call yourself christian? Call yourself european? You come from a country whereeven the bacteria under a toilet seat can hold its head up in pride compared to you. Have your little parade, and then go back to your family in your own country. Sorry I've worked and lived with too many here in Germany who have suffered your Serbian peaceful attempts at negotiation.

They should get a room, say Saturday at 3pm somewhere near Marienplatz? Hell, they could have coffee and master Bato could join them.

I'd like to know when Serbia and the rest of the Balkans became religious... They were fucking communist for the love of Pete! There was no religion. Any churches and whatnot that are there are more symbolic than religious.

YOU ARE ROGERBORG AND I CLAIM MY £5, YOU SWORD-SWALLOWING ALMOST-GINGER TEUCHTER!

If perchance you are not Rogerborg but actually are a Serb using the nick "Bato" (Croation slang for "cunt"), your trolling techniques are pretty 2005. You're ignoring everything I write. That might fly with a lot of the occasional posters but I'm a high-profile and high-activity user. You can't dismiss me out of hand like that. You need to find something -- anything -- to smack down. A molehill requiring mountainisation. Glub knows I leave enough opportunities for that in my comments for my true troll brothers. So either you're the R'borg or you're a not-trying-hard-enough troll.

Or you truly are a Serb who hopes the people here are ignorant enough that he can get away with making Toytowners see him as a victim and hopes we have no idea about his (illegal Yugoslavian breakaway-) republic's ethnic cleansing and concentration camps not a decade ago.

woof.

Hey Bato... I think it is interesting that you're here voicing your opinion. I've actually had a question for the Serbs on this side of the conflict...

Why do you care?

Honestly. I read your post and it basically sounds like "The Kosovar Albanians are nothing but a bunch of terrorists and unlikable"

So why do you want them to stay in your country? So far, they all seem to want out, the Serbs don't like them... so why not separate them?

To me the Serb position seems to just come down to: "We want to continue for you to have to do what we say, so stay"... which doesn't win any prizes in my book.

hmm, while Yugoslavia was communist, it was not Warsaw Pact and resolutely stuck to its non-alligned status. In accordance with that the Serbian Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish and Moslem were not supressed in the same way as they were in some other communist states.

This is a serous proble going on very near to us. Yet someof the people here have thought is apporpiriate to start talking about condoms for chainsawa sinstead. It is very wrong to undermine the importance of the situation. If it breaks it will affect everyoone reading this.

What the hell does woof mean anyways. Baddoggie, talk like a man bro this isn't a Bloods rally.

It is very interesting when two people have totaly opposite oppinions onthe same thing. One sais it happened this way one sais the total opposite. So ask yourself where did you get all the info about all hat happened on the balkans. I got mine from personal experience , familly, friends and so on. No media necesary.

No one in Hague has been prosecuted yet. I am not saying they are inoscent or guilty but after 5 years of time given to prove there has been genocide taking place it seems like it could be done quickly and easily. 5 years to prove guilt.

Milosevic is not liked in Serbia by most. Most serbs say he was an "American man" put o npower by the states than later used. It has happened before folks, the last guy was hanged recently. The terrorist (as said by the Us Government) Thachi- the kosovar albanian leader is supporten now by the States. Bush said yesterday his leadership showed a tolerance for all groups nonalbanian an albanian. Regardless. I KNOW this to be as false as could be. It is false and I know this to be a fact. Serbs are pursecuted from Kosovo as always, hence so many albanains there now and so little of anyone else. While our 12h century churches burn the peace keeping troops ar chillin'. It all good.
Ridiculous. It is sad half the people who descide to respond get their onfo from western media and that is all they feel they need to know.

I think one can realise there are "issues" with Kosovo independence without lining up with Serbian aggression.
Likewise a recognition of Serbia's aggression doesn't mean lining up say, with Croatian fascists or UCK stooges of western imperialism.

Will the supposed guarantees for Kosovo's minority population work?
Well seing how ethnic Russians ae treated in the Baltic States I wouldn't put a whole lot of money on it.

Neither side in this chapter of the imperialist battle / carve up over South eastern Europe is prepared to give way.
Though at the minute my weary suggestion would be that the four northern Serb populated districts should join Serbia and allow the Serbian church to administer the orthodox holy sites and Serbia to withdraw any claim to the other Kosovo districts.

That is exactly it. The world doesnt realize the importance of Kosovo for the serbian people.
Over 500 years fighting with the strongest empire of the world at the time and deffending it. Our holly land. Our hollies churches that have been destroyed. So many people that had to flee.
Kosovo is Serbia that is why no place else is nearly as important. As valuable culturaly historicaly, religiously.

And I never said that this was my oppinion tha tthe kosovar albanians ar enothing but unlikable and terrorists. Although Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro- all neighbournig countries have problems with them.
If you come to live in a country abide by its rulles. You cant simply take kosovo 15 percent of Serbia and all the above without expecting conflicts to arrise.

It has more value to us than can see you realize.

Stop quoting Bush, he is a lame duck and no one believes a word he says anyway. Next to Buchanan, you couldn't pick a worse representative of what you want to say fore or against. They are two pees in the same rotten pod.

As for the rest of your argument, mass graves and personal recounts of the brutality bely your inferences. And as asked before, why do you care? Will Serbia fall apart without Kosovo under its belt? What is the real reason? Money, land, oil, riches, minerals, what?

well I think I can agree with you MT. I certainly have a lot of anxiety about the whole way this has been done and with its potential to create even further instability. In that respect I suppose the reactions of folk like Bato is maybe to be expected if not respected.

Gotta love the innuendo..."well I don't personally dislike them, but all my neighbours think they unlikable terrorists."

So what are you saying exactly? They should stay part of Serbia because in the past it was, but now a different ethnic group lives there? How long have they lived there?

I'm really not seeing it, and I'm honestly giving you a chance: Convince me why it is extremely important that the government of Serbia control the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo.

Again, the way I see it... the Serbs don't care for the Albanians, the Albanians don't care for the Serbs... there don't seem to be a compelling reason why these two regions should be in the same country.

Convince me.

Does Serbia recognize its importance for the Kosovars?

I think for all parties the carve up of SE Europe that has been going on since forever is less about oil or mineral wealth.
More about "prestiege" and "honour", trade routes and and access to markets.