Protest against Kosovo independence

well maybe your little country should have thought hard about that before you did the unthinkable a decade back.

In the same way as serbia plays the Milwall card, so do Western governments against them:
Piss of the Serbs and fuel their feelings of being unjustly treated? Who fucking cares?

Bato, you are not the only person with first hand knowledge and experience. You are voicing your opinion which you are certainly entitled to, but you are clearly in the minority. Very few people other than the Serbs dispute what happened. NEITHER side is blameless. The UCK were rat bastards for attacking Serbs in an attempt to win independence over a decade ago. No doubt. But Milosevic and his cronies were also very wrong with how they cracked down on things.

As for the Albanians forcing the Serbs to leave, that's rubbish. The Serbs began mass migration out of Kosovo in 1690 when the Austrians withdrew from Kosovo and a large number of Serb refugees went with them. Depending on what account you believe, it was then that the Albanians came in, filling the gap left by the Serbs and then simply outbreeding them. The Serbs have been leaving ever since. First under Tito, then Milosevic. Abridged, sure, but I can't be arsed to write all of it. Just read Noel Malcom's, Kosvo: A Short History. Should cover it...in about 356 pages.

I think a webcam will suffice. EB can set up the stream directly on the main page.

Most Serbs are obviously misdirecting the blame. They are saying, "we didn't do anything, it was America's fault". Well, fuck that and you if you believe such bullshit. America didn't line up kids and fathers and shoot them in the back. Fuck you for even suggesting such a lame excuse for your countrymen. They did it and they did it because they fucking wanted too.


Its a small corner of a small country. They lost those other things with the loss of Montenegro and Albania.

I'm going to a pro Independence party a block from our house tonight. The couple is Serb/Albanian from Mostar. They fled after they saw their Albanian family members lined up and shot. Children and old folks first. Then the living Serbs of that family where raped and branded on their face. The wife of this couple is the Albanian and she hid inside of a sofa sleeper for 2 days while they had there way with her cousins, sometimes on the sofa she was inside of.

I think it will be a grand party over there tonight!

Well, shit, MsD, are you trying to make me cry?

Has Bato answered any of the direct questions posed to him?

no he is probably busy shoving a can of serbian Ajvar up his ass.

I wonder if the internet was around in 1946 would their be ex-Nazis posting about pro-Nazi rallys?

Of course. There are Neo-Nazis posting pro-Nazi crap on the internet now, why would a group of people with even more invested in the Nazi crap than the neo-Nazis are (think about it, many were raised with the Hitler Youth, after all, and it was a prevalent part of the society in general at the time) not take advantage of the opportunity for exposure presented by the internet?

hmm. that made sense in my head, but I'm not too sure how clear it is to anyone else. sorry if it's incomprehensible burbling.

That's the reason for the nutters to freak. Why does Serbia not wanna loose the Kosovo? I would much rather say it's the fact that Serbia loses it's only still left access to the Mediterranean... won't exactly be fueling the serbian economy - that's what would get me nervous if I was serbian, but then again the serbs lost every right to codetermine on that issue. How much absolute-fuckin-moronic-imbecility is necessary to think you can actually pull off precisely planned ethnic cleansings in Europe these days without being caught and best of all afterwards disavow your country actually did it? Preposterous...

Hey Bato... just an FYI, I'm still here.

I'm totally ignorant of the history and situation. I'm not biased by "western media"... I'm a blank slate. Convince me.

Just as a warning though: arguments about history and things that happened hundreds of years ago don't really affect me that much. I don't care what the population of Kosovo was in 1600.

I tend to deal with things "on the ground". In other words: I see today a large enclave of Serbs and a large enclave of Albanians.

Am I mistaken that these groups don't like each other?
If they don't like each other, and at least one group wants to leave, why not separate them?

I guess that's what it comes down to for me: Why is it very important that the Serbs control this area/ethnic group? Do they just want to have power over these people in order to tell them what to do? If so, that will be a tough sell for me. I'm a big believer in giving people as much political self determination as possible.

Again, I'm totally unbiased and know very little about the history and run up to this event. If you can't convince me, I doubt your "side" has much chance with anyone else.

The Battle of Kosovo was fought on St Vitus' Day (June 15, now celebrated on 28) 1389 between the coalition of Serb lords and the Ottoman Empire. Even though the Serbian army had lost it decisively, The Battle of Kosovo is seen by many Serbs as the first defining moment of the rise of their nation ...

Anyone who denies Serb genocide in the 1990s in the Balkans is as immoral as a Holocaust denier.

Kosovo is landlocked, so access to the Adriatic isn't an issue. Montenegro is independent, so Serbia can deal with the loss of Kosovo.

As for access to holy places, I am sure something can be mediated by the international community, especially since Kosovo is so dependent on foreign aid and has every incentive to want to join the EU and NATO.

If Serbia wants to be a respected member of the international community (and a candidate for EU entry) it needs to do some of the things that Germany did after WWII to once again become a respected member of the international community. At minimum, it has to face up to its past, and it has to catch and proportionately punish its war criminals (or hand them over to The Hague).

One other thing- the Albanians already resided in what it is today Kosovo before the Serbs began arriving in the 7th century.

With Kosovo itsself, it's about "honour" and "prestiege" as well of corse with access to the market.
My comment to the carve up being about trade routes etc applied to all the carving up that hasnbeen done in the Balkans by various imperialist forces.

Serbia have to atone for its actions over the last 2 decades for sure, but Serbia alone isn't to blame.

No one forced Serbs to commit genocide. That is their fault alone. From the Serbian perspective, the only economic value of Kosovo is some mines.

Genocide doesn't happen in a vacuum. To understand why such horrors happen we need to look at the wider picture.
Serbia and Serbs weren't responsible for all the suffering that has occurred during the bloody break up of Yugoslavia which was instigated by others - even though various nationalsists within the former Yugoslavia were gulty of stirring the pot.

I certainly think we should remember genocides as a warning to ALL of humanity.
But in 2008 we are reaching a sitaution where a significant section of the population cannot be held personally responsible for previous attrocities.

We wouldn't want to go down the road of blaming individual Serbians for the savagery of "their" (previous) government or the bloody actions of "their" troops or automatically castigating anything Serb would we? That would surely be "anti-Serbianism" oder?

Well, MT, the breakup of the former Yugoslavia is irrelevant. When Slovenia declared independence, the Serbs sent troops who were trapped by the Slovenes. To extricate them, the Serbs had to agree to Slovenian independence. Other former constituents of Yugoslavia weren't so lucky. I think you would agree that simply letting the Croats and others go their own way would have been the mature thing to do. Others didn't want to live under Serbian dominance- can you blame them, given the virulent Serb nationalism propagated by Milosevic and the ensuing bloodshed? Massacres like Sebrenica have no excuse- big picture or small.

My view is that there are no good sides in the former Yugoslavia. None whatsoever. They are all as guilty as each other. It's just a question of degree.

The Serbs had the hell blown out of them. That's what happened. You don't have to stand in a burning house to know that it is hot. Tito kept Serbia weak on purpose. The Albanian ascendency in Kosvo post the WWII occupation by fascist controlled Albania, was never reversed or even stopped. Kosovo was was really lost to Serbia in 1945. In the west racial/ethnic politics favor the underdog. If one tries to defend a given group from a less priveledged group it will be met with much resistance. The Serbs have the worst public relations machine in History. It doesn't matter what they are doing. Or if the Albanians were bombing civil servants and burning churches, Serbia lost the battle in the public arena.


In theory or practice? Especially in the arguments here, It greatly depends on the nation and from whom they are trying to be independent. Its a status thing. And definetly not considered universal. The advantage goes to the less priviledged.


California succeeds quite often as they fail. They may have tried to secede a time or two. Tennessee Volunteers know all about seccession except the word itself it seems.

I'll be out of town for this, too bad, I'd be really interested in going to see it... how big the turnout will be, and if there will be any violence or counter protests.

will any TTers be there to take photos?

Right.


Yes it would be, but it seems Anti-serbianism is ok, much the same way beating up on the Germans is ok. I don't know why.


Quite right. But who decides the degrees?

Will there be many Serbian chicks there this saturday? They're pretty hot actually. I've met quite a few before and I think they're lovely. Think I may be there too this Saturday. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2207469504

By the way, anyone feel another World War coming on? It's about time isn't?! I mean, it's been about 60 years since the last one and international relations seem to be weathering these past few months and years. Usually events like this trigger off massive wars. Take the current 'Kosovan independence' situation. Sounds like a parallel incident which happened 100 years ago in 1908, where the Austro-Hungarian empire annexed Bosnia from Serbia. Not wanting to forget, the Serbians and the Russian were eventually to get their revenge 6 years later, by assinating the heir to the Austrian throne, Franz Ferdinand. The rest is history.

Toe rag.

So whose the white knight this time around? The US, Russia, China?

If the S*** hits the fan who will the Europeans look to for help?

I'm pretty sure, Europe is a much more stable place than it was 60 or more years ago, and nationalism and militarism are not so evident like they were amongst the Germans, the French and the British, so I can't see how the US would be called on 'for help' as you Yanks seem to believe about WWII. However, should things trickle outside of Europe then I'm sure this may change the stance of the US.

Who got called upon to help in the Balkans in the 1990s? The US is very much involved with European security. That said, I doubt any armed conflict will emanate from Kosovo's independence declaration.

i hope you're right, though i just recognised this being a parallel situation with the Bosnian incident.
As for your question on who was called up in the Balkans, I guess that's "Touche!"

So does that mean the US didn't help in WWII? Things would have been much better without them

I also hope this Kosovo issue doesn't flare up. But just when you think people are enlightened their animal instincts for territory surprise you.

Lets hope we have learned from history.

WWII was a global war. Countries were either on one side, the opposition or not involved. I think 'help' is the wrong word here, as the US didn't really help anyone as they too had their own battles to fight, and often alongside the allies.

Fuck yeah you're right... mixed it up with Albania. Tis getting hard to remember all these balcan states in the right order these days...

Of course each individual is judged on his or her own merit. But if that merit includes denial of a genocide executed by their people, than they're next to as guilty as those who pulled the triggers. You know why? Because denial spawns forgetting, and forgetting is the seed of the next genocide.

The actual current stituation with the war crimes committed by the Serbs in the 1990s is worse than just denial- the vast majority of those who planned, ordered, and carried them out are still on the loose, including two of the men with the most blood on their hands (Karadzic and Mladic).

The British held off the Nazis by themselves in 39 to 41. Without the sacrifices of the RAF and the BEF and the Royal Navy, the war would have been lost. God Bless each and every one of 'em. But by 44 the Empire was spent. 15 divisisons was the British contribution to the conquest of Germany in the west. 15. The US Had 85. And the Russians had the Horde. What's more important the beginning or the end? I say neither. Does someone have to spell it out everytime, before we forget what those people who came before us did, together? Together is the operative word here. No Britian=No victory, No Russia=No Victory, No US=no Victory.

Bato seems to have gone a bit quiet on this!

Maybe he got mugged by reality. Someone like that should have to come face-to-face with victims of Serbian genocide.

No Germans=no Schnitzels.

I wasn't having a dig at the Texan guy, but I've heard on quite a few occasions some ignorant Yanks (and yes, i'm sure there are ignorant Brits as well), who tell us British: "Well, if it wasn't for us, you guys would be speaking German by now." Kind of a funny comment. I guess this is a different thread in any case.

Anyway, Kosovo's new flag...

Maybe he choked on some cevapcicis...

ja dolazim!

In my enlightened view of the world, all that Serbia/Croatia/Yugoslavia stuff is all just Russia to me. You people are always pissballing about slicing up bits of land and giving them new names, but everyhign over there is just Russia. End of.
Sorry if this Kosovo independence thing is a really big deal to some people, but I think I'm probably right in saying that 99% of people around here simply could not give a shit. Churches got burned? Don't care. Holy land? Don't care. Religion is boring as shit, and if all churches across the globe were burnt down, I'd celebrate.
I'll also be willing to be that a majority of people readin this thread actually skim read half of it, because it is boring. The bits where they would have stopped to read, were the bits about toerags.

Give up one of my 2 free afternoons a week to go on some pointless march through town? C'mon, you gotta sell it better than that. Any free beer? Snacks? Girls in skimpy clothing? People selling marijuana? If I go to a street parade in Munich, I want beer, and perhaps some transvestites to laugh at. Gimme something here eh?

Serbian Transvestites expressing their horror at the fact they get their underwear from that cute little lingerie shop Pink in Priština and will now have to go somewhere else.

I think you are quite wrong on this point. In the late 80s with the crumbling Warsaw pact, Milosevic realised communism in Yugoslavia had to change or die. Rather than embrace liberalisation, he embraced a very vicious and extreme form of Serbian Nationalism and was duly elected on that ticket. Right from the start he enacted policies within Serbia against minorities, in particular Kosovan Albanians (I can remember hearing about the early horrors of this before even the break up started on Radio 4 but no other government seemed to be taking notice). In 1987 Milosevic on a speech in Kosovo Polje asserted the untramelled right for Serbs to attack all other ethnicities without fear of retribiution. Most commentators see that outrageous public statement to be the first nail in the coffin of the SFRY

When the Serbian president and the Belgrade party leaders objected to this quasi-Nazi turn into Serbian extremist nationalism they were summarily dismissed under trumped up charges. Likewise in 1988 the pliant Serbian government in Montenegro and local government in Vojvodina (a Serb-dominated part of Croatia) were both dismissed and replaced with nationalistic stooges. When moderate non-Serbs like the Slovenian leader raised objections they were accused of being subversives in the pay of foreign powers.

In 1989, the assemblies of Kosovo and Vojvodina were forced to change their constitutions to effectively give direct rule to Belgrade. In Kosovo this provoked a violent reaction and as a result Kosovan Albanians subsequently boycotted all institutions of government meaning that Milosevic could stuff the Kisovan assembly with Serbian nationalists. The result was, from 1989 onwards the Serbian government of Kosovo effectivelky made Albanians second class human beings suspending all education, state support or health facilities for Albanians. Seen in that light it is a wonder that the Kosovan rebellion did not take place earlier. But the Serbian police force and army clamped down hard of Kosovan dissent driving Albanian leaders into exile.

In 1990, Serbian tub thumping and demands for refiorms to downgrade the status of other republics, resulted in a walkout of Croatian and Slovenian communists and the break up of the national communist league, leaving Milosevic to rebrand his party the 'Serbian Socialist Party". Mislosevic now also had control of all Sebian media which was now constantly booming out Serbian nationalist propaganda.

A friend familiar with pre-Milosevic Yugoslavia noted to me that the preciousness of Kosovo to the Serbian identity had never been important in modern Yugoslavia until the Serbian nationalists made it important.

The knockon effect of the Serbian affront was to trigger the election of nationalists in all the other republics and in effect, that made the breakup inevitable and in 1991 Slovenia and Croatia declared independence and the rest is history.

It is in my opinion therefore totally wrong to present the break up of Yugo as in some way a miosfortune inflicted on the hapless Serbs by conniving non-Serbs. Nor is correct to present what happened in Kosovo as Serb reaction to Kosovan terrorism. That is the kind of Newspeak I used to hear from the SWP and really I wouldn't have expected to hear it from you MT.


Why not? The postwar governments in Germany had to shoulder the burden of transforming their country even though it was not their direct fault what Hitler's regime had done before them.

absolutely, and protected by supposedly reform-minded Serbian governments.

One wonders what would have happened if the West German government had sheltered and protexcted Himler, Borrman, Goering et al from the Nurnberg trials.

Does this mean that they will have their own entry into Eurovision?

You do know that this year's contest is supposed to be held in Belgrade? Somehow I doubt they'll be there.

Yes but if Kosovo turn up to the Eurovision song contest, then would really mean that they are officically a state.

*I'm coming* In which context was this meant I wonder?

Please cut the crap. This world is decided by military power. I am a Chinese and we are very happy that we have nuclear power. Who can fuck around with that? (Keep dreaming about the independence of Tibet and Taiwan). When NATO bombed Serb, how many civilians they killed in the name of democracy and freedom?

Bato, I will go there on Saturday to support Serbs.

Will there be a counter-protest on Saturday?