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Protest against Kosovo independence

3pm Saturday 23.Feb.2008 @ Marienplatz

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > South Germany > Munich > Munich news
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Bato
QUOTE (Gordo @ Mar 1 2008, 8:46 am) *
Kosovo?
Serbs? F... them. They were'nt so tough when the Maroon Machine walked in.
Who is this 'Bato' berk?
Serbs...If I see one on the street I will shoe him in the nuts so hard even his friends will cry.

I am Bato you dumb redneck Motherfucker.

Asshole, I gave you the chance to meet me in Person. It is easy to talk hard from the comfort of your desk chair. Why don't you send me a pm and we can organize a date to "discuss" these issues face to face, like men.

I will make special time just to see you if you provide me with such an oppertunity. It will be a pleasure.
Conquistador
Bato, grow up.
Bell the cat
okay Bato, so you have shown us that the Albanians destroyed churches, which is deplorable. But why do you think they resents Serbia enough to do that after living for generations beside these churches without a peep?
thefirelane
I am 100% behind Bato...

Albanians destroy something that belongs to Sebia by lighting it on fire, they loose the right to be their own country.

oh wait..
[img]http://img.breitbart.com/images/2008/2/21/D8UUSIGG0/D8UUSIGG0.jpg[/img]

Bato, do you submit that Serbia should lose independence to the US, and become our subjects?

ok... WTF, why aren't my images working?
Sin
Guys... the process of reconciliation isn't doing very well, is it, eh?
Conquistador
I'd say the chances of Sin become drinking buddies with GWB outweigh those of Serb/Albanian reconciliation.
liutaia
perhaps calling one another names and not bothering to try to take an unbiased view isn't accomplishing anything. Perhaps no one here is willing anymore to try to see the other point of view. If that's the case, perhaps it's time to drop it?
Sin
Precisely, liutaia. It can go around and around in a nasty bloody messy circle until the last one is standing... or we can learn something from the experience. Only trouble is that we haven't really got a very good track record on the learning from previous mistakes score. All of us (nationalities, that it).
KingBilly
Bato.

Go to Kosovo, get your Churches, dissassemble them piece by piece and bring them back to Serbia.

Then accept Kosovar independence and fuck off.
thefirelane
QUOTE (liutaia @ Mar 4 2008, 10:22 pm) *
Perhaps no one here is willing anymore to try to see the other point of view.

I actually did try to see the other view. I was totally unbiased, and invited Bato to convince me.

All I got back was the typical conspiracy theory that for some magical reason "the west" all got together and decided to gang up on those poor Serbs. Something, I might add, we apparently love to do when anyone opposes our friends "the muslims" blink.gif

Then I did some research, and learned that the best excuse they can come up with amounts to... "well, we committed genocide 50km away, but not in this particular location here, are you crazy or something?"

Now I just view the Serbs as another violent ultra-nationalist bunch of assholes who cling to a false sense of cultural identity in order to maintain some sort of pride.

Let Kosovo be independent, I fully support them... political self determination is always better than people like Bato who feel they should be able to rule over others.
Sin
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Mar 4 2008, 10:26 pm) *
Now I just view the Serbs as another violent ultra-nationalist bunch of assholes who cling to a false sense of cultural identity in order to maintain some sort of pride.

Best I don't point out the obvious at this time of night methinks.
thefirelane
No, please do.
liutaia
TFL, you were one of the only people who looked at it and said "I don't know enough about this, tell me the side I'm not hearing from the media." since he didn't comply, you've given up trying to see the other point of view (every argument has two sides, at least. Whether they're justified positions or not is irrelevant- they are opposing positions). Thus the "people aren't willing to try to see the other point of view anymore"
leky
XabiAlonso
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Mar 4 2008, 11:26 pm) *
Then I did some research, and learned that the best excuse they can come up with amounts to... "well, we committed genocide 50km away, but not in this particular location here, are you crazy or something?"

Now I just view the Serbs as another violent ultra-nationalist bunch of assholes who cling to a false sense of cultural identity in order to maintain some sort of pride.

I assume you have the same view of Croats and Bosnians based on that assessment.
thefirelane
you tell me, I don't follow average Croat public opinion much these days.
Sin
Obviously.
liutaia
Oh, Sin. I was so disappointed when they deleted my proposal and your acceptance. I've done naught but mourn since.
Sin
Erm...
liutaia
HAHAHAHAHA biggrin.gif
pietro
How Albanians treat Serbs on Kosovo and Metohija? Check out this documentary. Today is exactly four years since these events...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M74-loO4-_Y
pietro
One more

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&feature=related
thefirelane
pietro, you have totally convinced me. The Albanians are a terribly violent despicable people that must be kept as citizens of Serbia! huh.gif
Conquistador
One would think that the Serbs would want to see the Kosovar Albanians go their own way if the latter were as terrible as the Serbs portray them as being,
invisible man
For any real american with commonsense please watch this video and to any Serb who live in America and all over the world. Please go back to Serbia where you belong. As long as Nato soldiers are in harms way deployed in Kosovo. People like bato need to go back to Serbia. biggrin.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALYW5OlZ1dQ
Vinc3
This thread is hilarious and doesn't belong to this forum and it just doesn't make any sense.
Gordo
I am right behind King Billy.

Bato...Red neck?...me?...by your comments here, it's you that seems a touch...er. 'redish'.
You seem terminally aggressive and unaware of the way that the wind blows.
Get a grip. The time for agression was when the KLA wanted to come into your living room.
Maybe there were'nt enough unarmed civvies, women and children for the Serb army and various Ramboesque offshoots to have a crack at?
It takes more than dressing up to be a soldier old son.
Luckily the Prince of Darkness and 600 close friends disarmed the KLA for you, or your head would have been on a stick.
Bato
What a stupid comment. A typical forum comment of a person who thinks he knows yet infect knows not the real situation. The KLA has not been disarmed, in fact that is the top issue this week between Serbian and American diplomats-They are discussing and asking why has America promised to start massively importing weapons to Kosovo. Bush than replied that this is a typical cooperation between two countries, Kosovo and the States.

Here is one more piece of news you will never hear in the States media unless of course when they know people wont be listening.
The chief prosecutor at the Hague and a sworn hater of Serbs Carla del Ponte is releasing a book she wrote on how the Albanian terrorists/ KLA treated Serbs and how they kidnapped, imprisoned and operated on hundreds of Serbs, later selling their organs on the black market.
Not making this shit up, she wrote it in her book read it yourself, it will be first sold in Italy tomorrow I think.

The fact is that most of you who grew up in the western world to western ideals and media do not know the whole story and your governments will make damn sure you never find out what really happened on the Balkans and why.You can go ahead and be ignorant and blame Serbia and the Serbs for simply all being killers and ultra nationalistic sons of bitches , and in fact most of you will, but this is on your shoulders.

If you choose do to know only the white house and the CNN side of the story than you are polluting your own mind and doing most damage to yourself.

It is so easy to be a hell of a lot of more educated on the subject if you would simply stop following the western hateful propaganda and sit and listen to the other side of the story. That easy. Keep in mind that everything you have heard on the Media has been simply to raise public consent for the immoral and illegal NATO aggression.

Also the Hague once again yesterday shamefully embraced itself and disrespected the international law by letting the two of the biggest KLA criminals completely off the hook. Talk about a slap in the face for anything righteous in this world where international Law should be the bible.

There is little point of making statements here and not providing proof so here is the article bellow.
Bato
Well well well. For perhaps the first time in history, the mainstream
media
have deemed the dismemberment of Serbs newsworthy. More accurately,
they
have deemed newsworthy the dismemberment of the Serb and non-Serb
victims of
our friends, and almost all living Albanians' great heroes, the KLA.
(Recall
the crowds cheering "KLA! KLA! KLA!" last month from Tirana to Pristina
to
Times Square. Below is just a taste of one of the many KLA activities
they
were cheering.) The new information is revealed in the forthcoming book
The
Hunt by Carla Del Ponte, former chief prosecutor for the Hague
Tribunal. A
few reports, starting with - gasp - the AP (which both the
International
Herald Tribune and Fox News deigned to carry): Albanian trafficking in
organs of killed Kosovo Serbs investigated
<http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/21/europe/EU-GEN-Serbia-Organ-Traffi
cking.php>
Serbia's war crimes prosecutor is looking into reports that dozens of
Serbs
captured by rebels during the war in Kosovo were killed so their organs
could be trafficked, the prosecutor's office said Friday. The Serbian
prosecutor's office said it received "informal statements" from
investigators at the U.N. tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, that
dozens of
Serbs imprisoned by Kosovo Albanian rebels were taken to neighboring
Albania
in 1999 and killed so their organs could be harvested and sold to
international traffickers. Bruno Vekaric, the Serbian prosecutor's
spokesman, said later on B92 radio that Serbian war crimes
investigators
have also received their own information about alleged organ
trafficking,
but not enough for a court case. Vekaric said Serb investigators also
received reports suggesting there might be mass graves in Albania
containing
the bodies of the Serb victims. Serbian media reported that the issue
was
brought into the open in a book written by former U.N. war crimes
prosecutor
Carla Del Ponte that is to be published in Italy on April 3. According
to
Serbia's Beta news agency, which carried parts of the book in Serbian,
Del
Ponte said her investigators had been informed that some 300 Serbs were
killed for organ trafficking. The Beta report quoted Del Ponte as
saying in
the book that her investigators were told the imprisoned Serbs were
first
taken to prison camps in northern Albania where the younger ones were
picked
out, and their organs were later sold abroad. ... Beta reported that
Del
Ponte says in her book that tribunal investigators looking into alleged
war
crimes by the rebel Kosovo Liberation Army were not able to complete a
case
on the organ trafficking claims and bring it to trial... The Beta
report
<http://www.blic.co.yu/society.php?id=1811> : The Hague
Prosecution
learned
while investigating war crimes committed by the Kosovo Liberation Army
against Serbs and other ethnic communities that people that disappeared
in
1999 in Kosovo were subjected to surgery in which their kidneys and
other
organs were taken from them and then the smugglers were selling them to
foreign clinics, Carla Del Ponte, former chief prosecutor of the Hague
Tribunal wrote in her book 'Hunt'. 'The victims were most likely
abducted
after [the] NATO bombing when international peace-keeping forces were
already deployed in Kosovo'. Even high KLA members were involved in the
operation of smuggling of organs, Del Ponte writes but [does] not
specify
their names. She further writes that a group of 'reliable' journalists
told
the investigators and UNMIK officials that in [the]summer of 1999
Kosovo
Albanians transported by trucks about 300 abducted non-Albanians in
camps in
Kukes and Tropoja in the north of Albania. Younger and healthy
prisoners
were medically examined and detained in Burel and in the neighborhood.
In
one room that was used as an operating theatre, the surgeons were
taking
organs from the victims. Via Rinas airport near Tirana the organs were
transported to clinics abroad for clients that paid for them. One
source
claimed to have personally participated in one of such deliveries at
the
airport. The victims left with one kidney were kept locked and later on
killed for other organs. 'Other prisoners in the barrack knew what was
to
happen to them', Del Ponte wrote. Among female prisoners there were
women
from Kosovo, Albania, Russia and former Yugoslav republics. Two sources
claimed to have been helping in the burial of victims at a nearby
cemetery... Byzantine Sacred Art blog has more: A Glimpse at the
Harrowing
Truth: What happened to Kosovo Serbs Kidnapped by KLA?
<http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2008/03/harrowing-truth.html>

The Real Women in Black: Serbian women seek the truth about their
children,
brothers, sisters and husbands missing in Kosovo province Over 1,300
Kosovo
Serbs, in addition to those...whom we know have been killed and whose
remains were handed over to their families by the UNMIK during the past
8
years, are still listed as missing. In some cases the entire families
were
kidnapped by the KLA/UCK at some point during the 1998-1999 war and
after
UN/NATO took over the administration and security of the southern
Serbian
province... Over the years, we have learned that a number of kidnapped
Kosovo Serb girls and women have been used as sex slaves, kept under
the
lock and key in the dark, moldy cellars of Albanian bar and brothel
owners,
underfed, repeatedly raped and beaten, until they are deemed no longer
useful and killed like dogs. There were also reports in the Serbian
media
about Kosovo Serb boys and men being forced to work in unsecured,
illegal
private mines, but with uncooperative UNMIK and indifferent KFOR (NATO)
no
investigation was ever initiated, and Serbian families of the
Kosovo-Metohia
missing are still without answers. Now, however, the much discussed
Carla
del Ponte's book "The Hunt" offers a harrowing detail, revealing why
Serbian
men [have] been kidnapped throughout Kosovo province during past years
instead of being killed on the spot, as is the usual KLA treatment for
all
non-Albanians, especially those of Serbian
ethnicity: because they were used as a livestock for organ harvesting
in the
illegal trade with human organ transplants. According to Glas Javnosti,
writing about one of the failed investigations regarding the fate of
around
300 abducted Kosovo Serbs who were taken to northern Albania, Del Ponte
says
that the kidnapped young men were not beaten and were well fed. There
was an
improvised surgery room in one of the houses, where young Serbs had
their
internal organs removed to be shipped over the Tirana airport "Mother
Teresa" abroad, where the organs of the healthy young Serbs were sold.
The
victims who had only one kidney removed during the first carve-up were
sutured and returned to imprisonment, to live until they would get
killed
for their other vital organs, when the right buyer is found. According
to
Carla del Ponte, the Serbs held in this monstrous human stable Josef
Mengele
would envy, begged to be killed. Sworn Serbian enemy, Del Ponte
describes
Kosovo-Metohia province under the KLA/NATO rule as a land with no laws
and
institutions, [a] land of blood feuds, ruled by the thugs who present
themselves as heroes of the "suffering Albanian people". She claims
that
UNMIK and KFOR officials, and even some ICTY judges in the Hague, are
fearful for their lives if connected to the KLA/UCK crime
investigations,
and feel threatened by the "Albanian reach". In her book, Del Ponte
says
that those few and far between investigations of the terrorist KLA were
the
hardest during her appointment as the ICTY chief prosecutor, that her
researchers were confronted by the clans, vendettas and political
pressures,
and that "policemen from Bern and Brussels and all the way to Bronx"
are
well aware about the insurmountable difficulties when it comes to the
attempts to investigate Albanian organized crime. Del Ponte traveled
<http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=21&nav_id
=48671> in 2003 to the alleged sites of the crime:
..."We are checking some informal statements we obtained through
operative
work that, in 1999, two trucks carrying imprisoned Kosovo Serbs were
sent to
Albania," said War Crimes Prosecutor Vladimir Vukèeviæ. He said that
the
informal information had been obtained from Hague Tribunal
investigators.
According to those sources, there are unregistered mass graves with
bodies
of murdered Serbs in Albania. ... One group was held in barracks behind
a
yellow house some twenty kilometers to the south of that town [Burel,
Albania], states the former prosecutor. One room in that yellow house,
according to the journalists, served as an operation room where doctors
extracted prisoners' organs. ... Daily Veèerenje Novosti brings more
details
from the book, which says that the Hague and UNMIK investigators, and
several journalist, along with an Albanian prosecutor, made a trip to
the
yellow house in 2003. "It was now white," Del Ponte writes. "Despite
the
fact that investigators discovered traces of yellow paint on it, the
owner
denied it was ever repainted." In its vicinity, investigators also
found
pieces of gauze, used syringes, two plastic IV solution bags,
"petrified in
mud", empty medicine bottles, including muscle relaxants used during
surgeries. [Thank god for Greater Albania's waste-disposal problems!]
Inside
the house itself, forensics discovered traces of blood on the walls and
on
the floor in one of the rooms. A section of the floor, sized 180 by 60
centimeters, was clean. "The owner of the house offered a series of
explanations to the investigators when it came to the origin of the
blood
traces. First, he said that his wife gave birth in that room many years
ago.
But when the wife made her statement and said that all their children
were
born elsewhere, he claimed that his family used the room to slaughter
animals in order to celebrate a Muslim holiday," Del Ponte writes. As
for
the Albanian prosecutor who accompanied them, the former chief Hague
prosecutor says he at one point bragged he had cousins who were KLA
members.

"There are no graves of Serbs here," the Albanian official said. "But,
if
they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did
the
right thing". ...Del Ponte writes that detectives had had to give up on
this
case because further investigation had proved "impossible".
Related: Kosovo PM admitted atrocities, prosecutor
<http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/01838.shtml>
UN personnel feared for their lives in Kosovo while some of the judges
presiding over the Hague Tribunal for former Yugoslavia were in fear
from
Kosovo Albanians that have committed atrocities against Serbs and that
is
why very few cases of Kosovo Albanian war criminals have been
prosecuted,
writes <http://www.blic.co.yu/society.php?id=1799> Carla Del
Ponte,
former
Chief Prosecutor of the UN Tribunal, in her new book. "I am sure that
some
of the top UNMIK and even KFOR officials feared for their lives and the
lives of their missions' members," says Del Ponte..."I think that some
of
the judges of the Tribunal for Yugoslavia were afraid that the
Albanians
might come and get them," writes Del Ponte. In her book, Del Ponte
details
her meeting with the current so-called Prime Minister of Kosovo, Hashim
Thaci, at the 5th Anniversary of the Dayton Peace Treaty that ended the
Bosnian conflict and says that, while sitting at a table, Thaci
admitted to
her that Kosovo Albanians committed atrocities. ... "I looked him in
the
eyes and told him that I have launched the investigation over crimes
that
the Albanians had committed in Kosovo. I have not said a word implying
indictment against him, but Thaci certainly concluded that I had done
so
since his face turned into stone," Del Ponte writes. Del Ponte also
notes in
her book Hashim Thaci and Agim Ceku are considered by UNMIK and KFOR as
"more than dangerous in the peaceful efforts in the Balkans". "Thaci
and
Ceku, in theory can stir up the minority Albanian rebels, to start
violence
in Macedonia, South Serbia and other regions," writes Del Ponte in her
book
reports news agency BETA... If one were to follow any of the
proceedings at
the Hague court, he or she would be amazed to see just how nicely the
Serb-hanging intent of that tribunal backfired. (While still hanging a
few
Serbs, guilty or not.) Del Ponte's revelations are only the tip of the
iceberg. When we carved up Yugoslavia (though I could use the present
tense), we also carved up actual people. Way to go, America. As we
continue
to enable brutality against the people who were the second-most
brutalized
party during WWII*, I say to my fellow Americans: Enjoy your new
Albanian
friends. You've earned them. But not to worry: As long as we keep
feeding
them Serbs, American organs should be safe. However, whether we keep
our new
masters - I mean, friends - happy or not, their plan is indeed to move
on
with the Greater Albania project which, as Ms. Del Ponte said, includes
western Macedonia, southern Serbia, but also Montenegro and parts of
Greece.
So what happens when America and the international community call it
quits
on that project? Will we finally figure out that spilled Serbian blood
is
followed by the spilled blood of the rest of Western civilization? *The
reason that the Croatians didn't kill as many Serbs and Jews in the
Jasenovac camps as the Germans killed Jews and others in the German-run
camps, is that rather than gassing or gunning down the Serbs, Croatians
were
savoring each kill by hand
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbosjek> .
From
The Jerusalem Post, International Edition, week ending December 21,
1991:
"Goebbels lives - in Zagreb" While not using the sophisticated
extermination
methods of the Germans, the Ustashi, the Croat Fascists, greatly outdid
the
Germans in their cruelty. Most of the killings were done with cold
steel; if
there was enough time, the Ustashi would also dismember their victims
using
handsaws.

Above: More Serbs wondering about the fates of their family members.
Note:
In the wake of Kosovo's declared independence, the three-finger sign of
the
raised Holy Trinity seen here was referred to by at least one reporter
(Catherine Philp of the London Times
<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3392492.ece?token
=null&offset=0> ) as the Serbs giving a "Nazi salute": "There,
as in
Mitrovica, they chanted 'Serbia forever' as they raised their hands in
a
Nazi salute." The Trinitarian affirmation is Christian, not Nazi
(though
journalists often don't see a difference between those two either).
Swiss
guards at the Vatican hold their hands the same way
<http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/%20http:/www.usatoday.com/news/world/20
05-05-06-vatican-guards_x.htm> when they take their oath of service.
Aside
from Nazi references, other requisite terms for describing Serbs,
currently
being recycled, include projections such as Serbian "extremists" and
"nationalists" - with no mention of the Albanians' hyper-nationalist
nature,
their Nazi history or extremist ties. It all adds up to a newly paved
road
for the next round of Kosovo-Serb organ harvesting. The shots have
already
been fired
<http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKL2850319720080328>
.

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1524

Republican Riot <http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress>
Saying it, so you don't have to.
March 30th 2008 05:30:59 PM
Need a Liver? Kill a Serb.
<http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1524>
Posted by Julia Gorin under Republican Riot
<http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?cat=1>
thefirelane
Ok, Bato. You can type paragraph after paragraph about how we are brainwashed, or you could instead answer my two simple outstanding questions about the whole thing:

1) Why did the entirity of all the "Western Media" decide to gang up on the Serbs. What specifically did they have to gain collectively?
2) If the Albanians are the most evil people in the world, as you seem to be saying, why do you want them to remain in your country?
MonksTown
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Apr 4 2008, 6:37 pm) *
Why did the entirity of all the "Western Media" decide to gang up on the Serbs. What specifically did they have to gain collectively?

It's not 100%. You will find reports over the last 20 odd years also covering the state and independent militia activities of the other participants in the bloody break up of ex Yugslavia.
There are also in the more independent minded media reports now about some of the issues raised about Kosovo's UDI rather than just rah-rah-rah! and waving bunting.

Sometimes "the media" can operate under its own interests of course.
But it doesn't exist in a vacum but has close connections to politics and thus of course, ruling class interests.
For sections of the western European ruling class the goal is a patchwork of weak statelets that are easier to control politically and economically.
For the USA the economic benefits are overshadowed by a desire to keep Russia geo-politically weak.

And of course for some chauvanist elements there is a desire to try and punish Serbia and dismantle the regions independence that it gained after 1918 - ironicly as a result of the UK fighting in WW1. Which I believe the USA also turned up for, albeit a little late. wink.gif
Bipa
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Apr 4 2008, 6:37 pm) *
1) Why did the entirity of all the "Western Media" decide to gang up on the Serbs. What specifically did they have to gain collectively?
2) If the Albanians are the most evil people in the world, as you seem to be saying, why do you want them to remain in your country?

1. 'Cause they got bored with Bush bashing? tongue.gif
2. Don't care about the people, it's about land. ph34r.gif
ZSharp
Bit late in the day but ...

1) Why did the entirity of all the "Western Media" decide to gang up on the Serbs. What specifically did they have to gain collectively?.

The Bosnian Muslims (& the Croats) realized early on the importance of PR - which makes sense as they were the military underdogs - they had nowhere else to turn.
They used specifically a well-known PR firm Ruder Finn and Hill & Knowltion, inc. in the US - and others - in order to publicize atrocities - real or otherwise - and thereby gain support for their cause. A massive turning point was their winning over of the US Jewish Lobby.
What support they had from the US Government (& other Western Govts) in the early days I don't know. Later on this all changed of course.
Serbia (or the former Yugoslavia as a whole) was always a thorn in the side of the Greater Powers - a maverick state - which often refused to conform to the wishes of the bigger powers. An example of that is Tito's formation of the Non-Aligned Movement (together with India amongst others) - or his refusal to allow American bases on the Adriatic coast.
Crikey even way back when - Bismarck said that the Balkans were not worth the life of a single Pomeranian grenadier.
Anyhow I digress - its all so interesting but ...
The Serbs - rather stupidly in retrospect - seemed to do nothing on the PR front. If they did it was ineffective.

2) If the Albanians are the most evil people in the world, as you seem to be saying, why do you want them to remain in your country?

I imagine - that in an ideal Serb scenario - they don't. At all. But its all compromise.
I don't really know why everyone dislikes the Albanians so much - but they do. And that applies to Greeks as well as most of the other regions of the former Yug - Slovenes, Croats etc. Any alliances in the region are I believe simply marriages of political convenience.
Even here in London - I've spoken to Poles who work in the building trade - who say they don't like em ... just trouble.
I met a nice friendly guy at Viktualienmarkt selling olives once - who turned out to be a Kosovan Albanian. Perhaps he's still there!

There is a loooong history of dislike & competition for land between the Serbs & Albanians - going back to the Balkan wars, the Berlin Treaty of 1878 - and probably far before that too.

What I've found in the Balkans - is that the situations are extremely complex and require a good grasp of history & an understanding of the sensitivities of the peoples there.
Any attempts to over-simplify usually result in untruth. And Chaos.
And just historically - its hard enough to unravel. But one has to try.

Bear in mind that these people - especially the Serbs - LIVE their history - it defines them. Its part of their national pride.
And that they suffered appallingly in the two World Wars of the last century - as well as under 500 years of the Ottomans.

It can all be maddeningly frustrating.
But coming out with opinions like "Albanians good - Serbs bad" - is just rubbish.

If I can say this without offending anyone - in the past I've often thought of the situation as Northern Ireland on steroids.
So perhaps there is hope after all ...

Hope this post is helpful.
windowlicker
my voice for an independant kosovo.
bajz13
definately this has nothing to do with people but land,this situation was bound to happen ever since the fall of Jugoslavia started,it was obvious that Croatia had no chance in staying in Jugoslavia with the serbs,next came the Slovenians,Bosnians,FYROM...so i think that kosovo (not formely beeing ever independent) was bound to ask for independence...and if in Bosnia croatians,serbs,muslims can live together so will eventualy albanians and serbs be able to live in Kosovo,just when they realize its not about politics but people.Kosovo deserves to be indipendent and Serbia deserves to join NATO and EU
calin
I hope we'll find out someday during our lifetime the truth about what really happened there.

some digest material, courtesy of reddit.com:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/stor...5001028,00.html
Bato
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Apr 4 2008, 6:37 pm) *
Ok, Bato. You can type paragraph after paragraph about how we are brainwashed, or you could instead answer my two simple outstanding questions about the whole thing:

1) Why did the entirity of all the "Western Media" decide to gang up on the Serbs. What specifically did they have to gain collectively?
2) If the Albanians are the most evil people in the world, as you seem to be saying, why do you want them to remain in your country?

I never said Albanians are the worst people of all time` what a red neck I would be if I said anything like that. Or if a comment like that came out of anyone’s mouth about anyone else.

So please drop that little word game and if you’re gona quote me, quote me fairly.
You can not simplify things like that because when people read your post without reading the posts before it they might conclude that it was really said.

Anyways if I do think that I would have said it already. Don’t forget, I was the one who tried to organize all the interested people here, especially the ones who criticize and say `genocide and `nationalistic and ``cleansing``. I am ready to defend and discuss my views on the open, face to face but they didn’t answer my call.

What is true however is that Albania has been having problems with all of its neighbors. Greece, Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro. Why is this so? What do you think?

Millions of reasons of course. But none of these other countries warred with one another. True, Greece has some problems with Macedonia in regards to the name Macedonia but I don’t think anyone had died from it.

And what you don’t know is that there was a little war CNN never really talked about between Albanians and Macedonians in this, 21st century. At that time I lived in Montenegro and we housed 4 young students, refugees from Skopje, the capital of Mac.

Anyways, go ahead and Google `greater Albania`- The Albanians take about 26 years to double its population. For a `normal European it takes more than 250- Or some number like that. So the people reproduce, have like 9 kids and flood into the surrounding regions. Tito allowed them to over flood Kosovo and never denied them much. So they realized they can, and they started demanding things like Albanian Schools, Albanian governing bodies, Albanian this, Albanian that and soon it became a small Albania, out of control. Then they become a majority in the south and push the Serbs out, so in comes Milosevic and deals with it. Something that should have been controlled a long time ago. True, it is a hell of a problem today.

So Google it and see the magnificent new Albania. Maybe that is the reason, who knows. In Montenegro, it personally made me sick but the criminal regime is doing the same as Tito. They started showing television shows only in Albanian. Before it was just the news, normal right? But now you have to flip through the few channels to realize your own mother tongue has been replaced by the `gastarbeiter`. The kilometers of the land including a few cities that border Albania have become virtually Albania. You can walk the streets and you will never see or hear the `domestic language. You will not see a street sign or a business sign in Serbian. Soon they will make up 90 percent of the population, demand schools and universities and such only for the Albanians and then when they are of course denied they will simply say `fuck you Serbs, New borders. `just like in Kosovo now. Totally illegal and unthinkable but as long as America supports it, it has some steam.

Whose fault? Our fault. We should have controlled this migration a long time ago. Wana work, fine here is a visa. Wana get educated, fine welcome to the university.
You want what? Albanian to be the national language, Albanian universities, ? Peace, !! there is Albania right there a few km across the boarder and enjoy yourself there.

Look now on the streets how angry the Germans are about the Turks wanting to open Mosques. They say ànti islamisirung` but no one cares. Except of course the Turks themselves. What if I said this in the States? ``We don’t want no god damn mosques and them yelling all day long round here. Church bells is all´I tell you.``

Talk about ethnic cleansing. The Serbs have been chased out of Kosovo in the past half century to the point that there is now a 10th left. Over 250 churches and monasteries destroyed under UN protection watch and no one in the west knows about it. In fact the people are so ignorant and mislead that they say the Serbs have been conducting ethnic cleansing when in fact we have been almost completely ethnically cleansed from there. And now if Kosovo is its own and the Albanians rule that 10th, give it 5 years in an ideal situation there will be not one Serb left in Kosovo. Bush sais hiow the kosovar Albanians are fair and show respect and tolerance hence they deserve independence. Ridiculous and funny and damn sad.

Talk about ethnic cleansing ha? Than they continue to destroy the churches and replace them with mosques and it becomes another little Radical Muslim state in the heart of Europe with not a trace of actual historical fact that Serbian was Kosovo once. And in 10, 20, 50 years, war again. Another Isreal/palestine hell hole.

You can just expect a country to give away its holiest territory, that has always, always been a part of it. Just like now with China and Tibet. What do you think China will do now. Give it away? You will never know the truth because the west will make damn sure China doesn’t grow strong enough to challenge the Big Boy. The play ground bully. And it’s three little European Bitches

Over 150 countries have denied Kosovo to be an independent country. It will never be recognized, it will never be in the UN, it will never be in the EU but these four I just mentioned will make sure that the blood flows on the Balkans.

Where there is war, there is money to be made.
thefirelane
your entire post doesn't answer my question. In fact, it only adds to it:

If you are concerned with the Albanians out breeding your people, and overwhelming the country in numbers, why do you want them to remain part of your country? Wouldn't that make it easier for them to relocate within Serbia? Surely allowing them a sovereign country and sealing off the boarder would be a better containment policy?

It seems your ideal scenario would be: the land remains, and the Albanians somehow "disappear" do I understand correctly?
windowlicker
QUOTE (Bato @ Apr 24 2008, 1:50 pm) *
<snip>
The Albanians take about 26 years to double its population. For a `normal European it takes more than 250- Or some number like that. So the people reproduce, have like 9 kids and flood into the surrounding regions. Tito allowed them to over flood Kosovo and never denied them much. So they realized they can, and they started demanding things like Albanian Schools, Albanian governing bodies, Albanian this, Albanian that and soon it became a small Albania, out of control. Then they become a majority in the south and push the Serbs out, so in comes Milosevic and deals with it. Something that should have been controlled a long time ago. True, it is a hell of a problem today.
<snip/>

If you are suggesting that Milosevic "dealt" with the "problem". Then you are no better than any hairy-arse goose-stepping Neo-Nazi suggesting to "deal" with the Jews or Gypsies.

The problem is not them flooding your country. The problem is you (unfortunatly not only you but most people in many countries) being too small minded and culturally insecure to absorb ideas or values of others with respect.
Migration is part of globalization. (a phenomenon that started when man took up farming)

What are you doing in Germany anyway? Are your Serbs flooding this country and poisoning the Germans with your sick ideas?
Maybe someone should step up and deal with this problem!?
Why not fence off all countries make them self sufficient disallow trade, eat only your own food and marry within the family.

Maybe you get the picture where thoughts like this lead.
ZSharp
> The problem is not them flooding your country.

The problem IS them flooding their country. Period.
And not just flooding their country anywhere - but in a place they consider to be their holy cultural heartland.
If you can't see that - you're a Big Dumbass.

I see you're Austrian.
Would you allow - or like it - if your nice country was flooded with Albanians?? With all that this would entail?

Stop and think about that for a while.
Before resorting to puerile cliched insults.

It is a very VERY difficult situation - a real mess.
The history of how it came to be - is long & winding - and also disputed - which doesn't make it any easier.

But in the end one has to try and take a practical view - which is about dealing with the situation NOW.
What the hell to do ... ??
Jeez ...
Keydeck
QUOTE (ZSharp @ Apr 26 2008, 1:03 am) *
If you can't see that - you're a Big Dumbass.

QUOTE (ZSharp @ Apr 26 2008, 1:03 am) *
Before resorting to puerile cliched insults.

Hahahaha!
ZSharp
Damn! You got me there!! biggrin.gif

However in my defence - I'd say I was making a (kind of conditional) statement of fact ...
windowlicker
QUOTE (ZSharp @ Apr 26 2008, 1:03 am) *
The problem IS them flooding their country. Period.
And not just flooding their country anywhere - but in a place they consider to be their holy cultural heartland.
If you can't see that - you're a Big Dumbass.

I see you're Austrian.
Would you allow - or like it - if your nice country was flooded with Albanians?? With all that this would entail?

Stop and think about that for a while.
Before resorting to puerile cliched insults.

It is a very VERY difficult situation - a real mess.
The history of how it came to be - is long & winding - and also disputed - which doesn't make it any easier.

But in the end one has to try and take a practical view - which is about dealing with the situation NOW.
What the hell to do ... ??
Jeez ...

flooding? See, using language like this is where the problem starts.

People are people. Period. Everybody has a right to food, education, health care and security.

Also your comparison of Austira being "overrun by Albanians" is not a valid example. If you do use Austria you would have to say the country of Tirol would want to be independant from the rest because it feels culturaly different and want's to protect it's heritage. In that case let them if they want. But why has any of this got anything to do with Austria in the first place? I thought the discussion was related to Kosovo/Serbia

point is that the Kosovars should be allowed to protect themselves - the only way to do this is by letting them be independant. (or do you really think the Serbs are going to accept them in "their" country).
You are a big dumbass if you think so.
ZSharp
QUOTE (windowlicker @ May 2 2008, 12:49 pm) *
flooding? See, using language like this is where the problem starts.

This from the guy who in his last post talks about goose-stepping Nazis??

I believe the use of the word flooding is correct. The birth rate of the Kosovan Albanians since WW2 has been prolific. There has likely been massive influx into Kosovo of Albanians from Albania itself.

I'm all for peace and love thy neighbour and people are people etc etc.
But Reality is not always like that - eg the migrations that you mention in your previous post were usually not peaceful affairs at all but violent forceful taking of land from the previous occupier.

The situation in Kosovo has never been a nice example of peaceful migration. The situation now where Albanians are in the majority - has in part been achieved by centuries of horrible suffering - especially by Slavs under the yoke of the Ottoman Empire - but there is no denying that both sides have suffered. No-one has a monopoly on suffering neither on brutality in that place.

In recent times (well before this last war in the 90's) there were very frequent outbreaks of ethnic violence by the Albanians against Serbs. You won't have heard about these on CNN.
I imagine that the only Serbians left now in Kosovo - apart from the clergy trying to protect what's left of the old World Heritage Serbian churches - are the nutters. All the Serbian intelligensia are probably long gone. They want a better life.
Would you stay in such circumstances??
Would that make it right then - that they declare this land as theirs?

Albanians have also effectively taken over the southern area of Montenegro bordering on Albania. Bit by bit over the years all the local Slav Montengrians have been squeezed out.
What is going to happen there?

Using the example of Austria was an attempt to make you consider the issue from a personal standpoint - rather than some faraway state that you probably don't care much about.
You need to consider the hypothetical case where a prized part of your country is taken over by people that nobody likes - and who like nobody else - and who are not interested in integrating nor in your language or your culture.
If all the houses in my street here in London got taken over by Pikeys for example - I wouldn't be able to get out of here quickly enough (if I could find someone to buy my house under such circumstances). If they started dropping hints like throwing bricks through my windows or terrorizing my family I might well move even quicker. (Then again I might not ... dry.gif )
Once they achieved massive ethnic dominance in the area - should they then be allowed to declare Independence?

If Independence is officially granted to Kosovo (its still widely disputed) the repercussions of any precedent that might influence the behaviour of Majority Ethnic Groups in localized regions of a host country - is scaring the hell out of many other countries world-wide.

I am wary of any International situation where the US (& the UK) get involved as it usually leads to Big Trouble. I don't need to quote current or historical examples of this to you - they are obvious.
You need to remember that countries don't have friends they have interests - and when they act on this scale it is always in self-interest. They don't care a hoot about the locals - whatever they might say in public.
Already in the early 90's and probably even earlier - the US military was involved in training Albanian forces - I heard it on Radio Tirana (english speaking service) when I used to live in Munich.

I cannot comment on the legal situation - I imagine that the International Laws governing such situations are horrendously complicated - as well as being open to abuse and even contempt by powerful nations.

But in the end I believe the situation in Kosovo is a fait accompli - whether it achieves the piece of paper or not.
No Serbs want to live there. Not really. They probably would if the country wasn't overrun with Albanians but that is not the case and I don't see that changing.
Serbia will try to keep the province as a part of Serbia - as it is too culturally significant for them. It is their Holy Land and the birthplace of their nation.
But perhaps in time - even they will be able to Release the shackles of the past - so that they can get on with the Present.
windowlicker
QUOTE (ZSharp @ May 4 2008, 1:54 am) *
This from the guy who in his last post talks about goose-stepping Nazis??

No! It's the guy that compared the nazis with those people that justify the acts of Milosevic as a way of dealing with the problem without condemning these acts.

If there are too many Albanian's, Turk's, Pikeys, Austrian's in your country send them to Germany where reproduction rate of the ethnic people gets in the way of paying for the old.

The other parts of your post I actually agree.
Janx Spirit
Statistics including birthrate:

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/albania_statistics.html

Italy as a benchmark

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/italy_statistics.html
Element2082
Using Italy as a benchmark is an interesting choice since it has one of the lowest birthrates in Europe.
In short, its a benchmark no one would use as a benchmark unless they wanted to highlight the lower end of a range.

Use the (weighted if possible) average of developing countries to give you an appropriate benchmark.
Kay
@JS
I think the above posts refer to Kosovo Albanians, and they wouldn't be included in Albania's statistics.
Element2082
He's partly correct to assume that neighbouring "countries" and the same ethnic group have the same birth rates...I think.
ZSharp
On the birth rate question - just google something like "birth rate kosovo albanians" - and you will find plenty of information.
eg Kosovo: Europe's highest birth rate.
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