Protest against Kosovo independence

And the Bayern - Hamburg game had nothing at all to do with their presence?

Please stop twisting other people's words, will you? It's getting tedious.

Sounds like religion is a key factor for you, Bato.


You have been quoted. Others will draw their own conclusion, but you have clearly stressed that religion is very much a part of the Kosovo issue and earlier wars between Serbs and the Ottoman Turks (from your perspective).

As for screen names, it is not suprising in the least that an apologist for genocide and religious discrimination/persecution would find a mere screen name to be a graver offense than the Serb genocide in the Balkans.

Since you wish to make an issue of screen names, here are various uses of your own:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bato

So which definition were you using, that of male gangster, or the one which is an ethnic slur?

As for your other ignorant remarks, I'll simply ignore them, considering the source. It is very pathetic for you to be lecturing anyone else on human rights violations.

I don't know what you mean- you clearly stated that you didn't care about the Serbian invasion of Kosovo in 1912, i.e., you clearly implied that you wanted to ignore it. You have trouble staying on topic, so perhaps you should work on that. Keep to the issue at hand.

No. Different day.

Cherchez l'erreur.


Stop digging. You're deep enough as it is.

P.S. Instead of twisting other people's words maybe you should read your own prose before posting, it might help you get your own words right.

There is no error, except on your part. Your argument about Kosovo's status did not take the 1912 Serbian invasion into account, and when asked to comment on that you stated that you did not want to, thus you ignored the fact the invasion belied your claim that Kosovo belongs to Serbia.

I passed Marienplatz on Saturday afternoon during the anti-Kosovo independence demonstration, and witnessed the strong feelings of the protestors and very large police presence.

What I really didn't like is that all the speeches I heard were conducted in what I believe to be Serbian. The demonstration was held in Germany, so why not use the language of this country? Is the point of the demonstration not to explain and demonstrate the Serbian perspective to people living in Germany?

Dreamer, I think that was an indication of the strong role of virulent Serbian nationalism in the Kosovo issue within the context of desire for a Greater Serbia. If the only issue for Serbia was Kosovo's status, they wouldn't have expended so many lives in fighting in Croatia and Bosnia as well.

I got that Conquistador, thanks. I just don't understand how the Serbians expect to convince the rest of the world about the validity of their stance/claims, especially given their current approach. Like thefirelane said earlier, what exactly is the basis for wanting to retain Kosovo?

Although I am in favour of Kosovan independence, I would welcome a logical discussion based on facts - especially since I'm ignorant in this topic according to people like Bato. The protest on Saturday made the extreme nationalism of Serbia, and introspective attitude of the citizens even more evident. It did nothing to further their cause in the eyes of the world (well, in my eyes anyway).

Ah! Must have been Brum - Arse then. My mistake.


I couldn't stand it any longer Kay and just put him on ignore. Things have seemed much more pleasant ever since.

Sound advice indeed. Cheers.

As you can see Dreamer, some people are more interested in harassing others over spelling and grammar than in discussing the facts, then you have those who pretend to discuss the facts but instead hurl epithets.

More later on the facts...

Can you access these? of course you can, providing you are not within china where you may find your information on the outside world somewhat limited..

China threatens Taipei
China threatens...
Bejing threatens...
China threatens...
China Threatens
China threatens...
China Threatens...
China threatens war after bush shakes hands with Taiwanese govt official. LOL

Sorry, I didnt see how far back this post was, but still had to laugh.

On the subject of "ignore", I think it would be more appropriate for me to have put Sin on "ignore".

This thread descended rather predictably into dick waving and now toy throwing. Carry on.

No dick waving - the Spaniard doesn't have one

As if some Irishman knows what's in another man's pants. Maybe that forlorn wish is in that Irishman's dreams...

I dream of Jeannie with the light brown hair
Borne like a vapor on the summer air
I see her tripping where the bright streams play
Happy as the daisies that dance on her way.
Many were the wild notes her merry voice would pour,
Many were the blithe birds that warbled them o'er
Chorus:
I dream of Jeannie with the light brown hair
Floating like a vapor on the soft, summer air.
I sigh for Jeannie, but her light form strayed
Far from the fond parts round her native glade;
Her smiles have vanished and her sweet songs flown
Flitting like the dreams that have cheered us and gone.

Get your coast biscuitboy, you've scored!

Ah Monkstown, I have to out. No, I mean I have the gout!

You're not everything to me that matters,
My whole world when you leave won't shatter,
I will do my best to make you see,
You're not everything, no you're not everything to me oh oh,
You're not everything,
But you're everything that matters to me.

Lenin (1918)

Not with me dear, with Conq.

[img]http://www.timeout.com/img/2389/w198/image.jpg[/img]

Just to make you ever so jealous!

Is that you getting felt up by Ude?

Never mind that. Who's the bloke in the dress?

Kosovo-Massacres: Includes names of the victims in case one wants to check the facts.
Warning very explicit!

maddul, that is an interesting link. I note yet again that the sources are either US information services, HRW or western media circa spring 1999, at precisely the time when NATO wanted some fireworks to show it was still relevant.

During the Milosevic trial, events in Kosovo were covered in some detail. Not a single witness - not one - testified that the Serbs were engaged in genocide. And shall we roll out the history of combating guerrilla activities where guerrillas by night melt into the local population?

Also interesting is how the OSCE and Kosovo Verification Mission never reported any incidents of ethnic cleansing by the Serbs, current or planned. They did, however, report how the cuddly, brave KLA harassed and drove non-ethnic Albanians from villages not dominated by ethnic Albanians.

ok... just so I'm clear Xabi (like I said, I'm not 100% familiar with history here) You are positing that the people killed either were never killed, never existed, or will killed by some other group in order to blame on the Serbs (presumably, Albanian guerrillas posing as Serbs killing their own people?)

I'm also still a little unclear what exactly "The West" had to gain by picking a fight with the Serbs and making them look bad.

I remember what happened in 1999 well - there was a huge outcry about ethnic cleansing and wild exaggerations were being published - 100,000 people missing, 200,000 people missing.


From this 1999 BBC article immediately after the (illegal) NATO bombing campaign finished. The bombing killed 5,000 Serbian troops and 2,000 civilians, BTW, from the same article.

After the bombing campaign it became apparent most of the missing people had re-appeared again - they had fled into the hills or camps. People were killed (on both sides) but it was around 3,000-3,500 (about 2,500 Kosovans & 700 Serbians). I'm not saying Milosevic didn't commit genocide earlier, or that he wasn't planning to again, but the events of 1999 weren't genocide.


From this 2005 BBC article.


It seems to be because Serbia is allied to Russia. Old habits die hard, even for Clinton. When the KLA started a similar campaign against Macedonia, a Western ally, they were forced to stop immediately.

It's convenient to have a boo-figure for consumption by the domestic population and to keep the population of client states like Albanian Kosovo "on message".

haven't noticed them with kevlar suits on Marienplatz before for just a footie match.

So wait... again, I must really be dense. Are you saying the entire "West" needed a scapegoat for the worlds problems, decided Serbia would do, fabricated genocides, and started to bomb them for no reason?

@TFL: Of course! Isn't it obvious? Serbia is, clearly, the most logical scapegoat available, and since all of the worlds problems could be blamed on them, it only made sense that they should fabricate and spread far and wide stories of genocide. Not only that, they hired a few hundred thousand fake refugees!

edit - hmm. I meant that to come out funnier than it did, but I'm tired, and sick.

No, you Soviet Canuckistani. We true Amurrikins hates them whats brown: Japanese, iRackis, iRAYnis, afghans, gooks, chinks, slopes, slants, whatever. If we's gonna hate them they needs some color. Hatin' Serbians takes too much effort. Now them rag-wearin' Minaret-screamin', Halal-eatin', fuckers who won't shave (and their husbands), that's a different story since you can tell 'em apart on sight. BUt a Serb? We had that trouble back in the 1930s when more'n half the country preferred Germany to the damned limeys we got our independence from, until they sided with the nips.

Nope, you can blame a lot on Amurrika, but bombin' the Bosnians was a prophylactic exercise. Which worked (as evidenced by there still being enough ethnics alive to proclaim their independence).

15-2, 15-4, hat trick with a third 15, nobs for 1, a run of wars for 12, checkmate and touchdown.

woof.

TFL, it's clearly a conspiracy theory, and, ironically, there are a number of people (not me) who think that the Serbian genocide in the Balkans was part of Russia's plan to tie the US down as much as possible in the 1990s in an area of no geopolitical importance to the US while Russia regrouped.

Sure Russia has an equal imperialist geo-political interest.
When you aren't on one side, you can see the various sides squabbling over "their" sphere of influence.

@Puppy: haha! thanks, I needed a laugh

@Conquistador: I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take any adult not currently heavily medicated seriously when he starts talking about conspiracies on any sort scale beyond a few dozen people. I'm sorry, fella, but get help.
furthermore: Take ownership of your beliefs. If you didn't believe "that the Serbian genocide in the Balkans was part of Russia's plan to tie the US down as much as possible in the 1990s in an area of no geopolitical importance to the US while Russia regrouped" you wouldn't have quoted it in the manner you did. There are a lot of people out there who believe a lot of stupid things (as this thread can attest), but if you're going to spout it, at least own up to believing it.

edit: on the offchance that I'm reading that wrong, and you really are just reading off someone else's beliefs, what is it exactly that you do believe?

@liutaia:

you are mistaken- I don't believe either conspiracy theory- note that those who think the US is trying to cut down Russia via Serbia have offered no proof to support that allegation. As for the other conspiracy theory I cited, in case it was not completely clear to you, I do not believe it either. It is also inaccurate to say the anti-Russia conspiracy theory has a lot of support, thus I didn't say that. Furthermore, if I characterize it as a conspiracy theory, that should be a fairly good indication that I don't believe it myself. I'll tell you where I heard the anti-Russia conspiracy theory- US officers serving in peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and Kosovo. BTW, I openly disagreed with them.

As to what I believe, I think it is a matter of Serb nationalism (note the Serb protests in Banja Luka, rather far from Kosovo) that Millosevic and others tapped into for their own advantage, but nationalism that is very widespread and longstanding throughout the Serb populace. Note also the long history of changing borders and violent ethnic conflict in the Balkans. I do not think Russia orchestrated it or was even kept informed of any plans for it, but given Slavic identity politics, didn't oppose it either. Russia anyhow had a lot of other things on its plate between 1992 and 1999.

As for NATO, I think there is a good deal of guilty feelings on the part of those who did not intervene in 1991-92, which would have saved a lot of lives. Keep in mind the planning for the Bosnia peacekeeping mission began in February 1993, yet the peacekeeping troops started showing up in December 1995. I think there was a sincere determination on the part of NATO to prevent a similar bloodbath in Kosovo.

Due to the recent violence the German embassy in Belgrad has closed its consular services and is no longer issuing visas to Serbs for an indefinite period.
(Süddeutsche Zeitung 28 Feb. 2008)

One other thing to keep in mind- then-President Bush warned Milosevic in 1992 that if he attempted a bloodbath in Kosovo the US would intervene to prevent it, and from what I understand Clinton also warned Milosevic against such activity.

Kosovo?
Serbs? F... them. They were'nt so tough when the Maroon Machine walked in.
Who is this 'Bato' berk?
Serbs...If I see one on the street I will shoe him in the nuts so hard even his friends will cry.

tough guy Gordo

Serbs deserve whatever they get, and if for all the atrocities they just lose a bit of land that wasn't even theirs to begin with, well then they should consider themselves damn lucky.

And why don't you burn a few more embassies, or declare war on another neighbour, maybe Macedonia? Plenty of people to kill there, in fact quite a few Albanians now live in Macedonia after the Serbs chased over a million of them from Kosovo.

Me personally, I'll be petitioning for Vojvodina to declare independence and separate itself from it's backward ruler.

whoah, this is all getting a bit too ethnically focused. Serbs are just folks like any other Europeans. They have been through a pretty awful time and have been badly served by both their leaders and their media. Public opinion in Serbia may very well fly in the face of common sense but I really do not think there is any excuse for advocating violence against people purely for being Serb. An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

If you have a time, please face the facts in parts of documentary:
(10 minutes each part)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyBxcWNfrrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccQec5ZPNWg

And, think about how good were you served by media you watch and leaders you had...

I am astonished that you would post such blatant propaganda as 'truth'. Are you mad?

You've just exposed one of the reasons that there is not united support fro EU states for Kosovan independence.
It opens up a further cans of worms regarding teritorial integrity of European states.
Certainly Romania and Slovakia that have large Magyar populations are concerned and Vojvodina would also be another part of a move back to a Greater Hungarian Empire as if WW1 never happened.

Right there I choose antiserbia behavior. Go ahead proclaim whatevever layout you want but still i go anti-serbia and I say serbia with a little s.

Hi Boomtown.
No not tough...I just got big shoes!

HERE YOU GO.

Watch what CNN never shows.

What you will see is a muslim Albanian group climbing on top of a Orthodox church in Kosovo and tearing the Crosses off the roof. Than burning it down

This is only one of over 200 churches and monesteries bdestroyed.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Pg-bYIqgaE&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&feature=related

Kosovo-Another muslim state supported by the radical islam leaders of the middle east.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vCAz6PW_h2k&feature=related