Protest against Kosovo independence

Really? Keydeck? That's the stupidest twist this post has taken, including all of smartedi's posts.

Ahhhh that " little potato incident " as beautifully couched by Lions.

Well, my original version was a little bitchier but the mods decided it was a little too much so. I therefore took a slightly different approach the second time around.

You're right, it's a fair cop. The "half the world" part was a bit of an exaggeration.

The content was just to make an exaggerated point. That being that it's not always just a simple case of hey-ho, let's all be friends and move on as the poster indicated. There are histories, complex issues and under all of it, people.

True, true. So let's be friends.

Unfortunate, but accurately put, it's the people that are put "under it."

Seems some Serbs living in Kosovo attacked UN police yesterday. Real victims don't attack those protecting them. Those who worry about the safety of the Serbs in Mitrovica and elsewhere should take note of this.

I think that the fact that 90% of Kosovo want to be independent is justification enough for separation. I firmly beleive that the will of the majority should rule. It is
a fundamental principal of democracy. It isnt fair that they are controlled by Serbia when they want to be free.
I understand that the lands of Kosovo have historical significance to Serbia, but I think in that fact there is a lesson for everyone in letting go of the past, forgiving, and allowing people to move on. I just dont think it is right that Kosovo is controlled by Serbia when 90% of Kosovars want to be separate.

If the majority of the population fo the 4 northern districts want to leave Kosovo and join Serbia that would be OK then?

A democratic society is not just about what the majority want, but respecting the rights of minorities too.

ultimately it might make sense to give the northern part to Serbia but it would leave the serbs in the rest of the country rather exposed. As I have said before, this has all been done far too quickly. It would have been better to have accomodated all sides in a solution though by all accounts Belgrade just wouldn't play ball with that.

Takes two to tango. The Berlin-London-Washington alliance didn't want to play "ball" either.
Well except the game of kicking Serbia that is.

From previous posts we know that you're female. From comments like this, which demonstrate your idealism, I'd put you at also no older than 23 or 24 years old. Life hasn't shat on you enough for you to realize that life isn't ideal, and that to reach the end of your life with you balls intact (figuratively) and without blood on your hands is enough of an accomplishment.

how do you work that one out? Independence for Kosovo was not the only option but the complete failure by Serbia to engage made it inevitable.

Sadly, Serbia played into the hands of western imperialism, painted themselves into a corner.

why do you assume the 'West' wanted the Serbs to fuck up. The European aim has always been to restore stability to the region and eventually accept it as part of the EU. The idiotic Serb failure flies in the face of that aim. In many ways the independence of Kosovo and the greater Serb exclusion that results is a failure as much as a success of 'western imperialism'. If the Serbs had been more shrewd they could have been closer to EU accession with a gradualist process of Kosovo autonomy in progress. That would have been a win win for all parties. But no they kucked it up to satisfy some sort of nationalistic martyr instinct.

If a tree fell in the woods, and no one was there to blame it on the imperialistic west, did it really fall?

Bishop Berkley takes on Marxist-Lenninist dialectic. NICE!

Yep. The Belgians did it. Bastards!

Nothing is sure, except that the Jewses were behind it.

You are to an extent right BtC in that Serbia does have a masochistic nationalism, what you correctly identified as the Millwall syndrome.
The deal that is/was on offer from the EU is that "be a good boy and accept what we tell you and go for EU orientated market capitalsim and we will let you play".

Slovakia was the other state in Europe whos (gangster) ruling class tried to go for a domestic-nationalist-slavic line in the early 90s
but they were whipped back "on message".

I don't know what options Serbia has really.
Possibly do the trick of the old articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution.
Bite the bullet and go for the EU route but once in, be as bloody minded as Poland is.

which on the face of it is a VERY generous deal. I would also note that it is a deal that is ALSO popular in Serbia since it elected a government on the ticket of advancement to EU accession. Their government has patently failed them on that count AND lost Kosovo the defending of which was the other part of their electoral platform.

Anyway, if you hate market-oriented capitalism so much, why haven't you moved to North Korea to get away from it?

side note: now that half of the terrible twins has got his jotters, Poland is a good deal more cooperative under Donald Tusk.

Sure, Tusk is a pro West, pro market tool.
The terrible twins were dreadful but they had a certain cham in the way they stuck two fingers up to Brussls and Berlin.

(I'm not a little Engländer but I think the EU is a pile of shit too.
When is your mate Brown going to give us a referendum, cos I'm voting no. ;-) )

Well, MT, how about answering BTC? MT is even a landlord (Kaum zu glauben, aber war)! Perhaps he feels guilty!

I think MT just cannot help but complain about everything, tool of capitalism that he is.

North Korea?
Dreadful stalinists, sabre rattlers with a scant regard for human rights that use a population on the brink of starvation as a bargaining tool.
Why on EARTH woud you assume I'd have truck with that regime?

Wrong on all accounts - but that's what you get when you ASS-U-ME! 1) I am not a female. 2) Holding onto ideals is what makes life worth living. 3) I'm almost 30. 4) Life has shat on me pretty good, but that's no excuse to take it out on other people. and 5) If you think getting through life with your balls in tact without blood on your hands is an accomplishment, then I'd say your standards of living are pretty darn low, and that's just sad and pathetic! I feel for you!

Mmmm, sorry to say, but I get the feeling that a lot of people here source their information from FOX. My two cents:

- those here who paint the Balkan conflict in the 1990s in a black and white, Serbia was evil and the rest hapless victims, should consult some history books to get a more balanced perspective.

- those here who are revealing a remarkable hatred of Serbian people should visit the country and experience its people and culture on the ground before forming an opinion. The vitriol is very disturbing.

- those here who do visit Serbia might like to discuss the Kosovo issue with locals. This goes much deeper than most outsiders can appreciate, and I suspect this is the main point the OP was trying to make. I am not commenting on who is right or who is wrong, but I have seen many people cry when talking on this issue, so it is useful if outsiders attempt to understand the feelings involved.

- those here who blindly paint the USA as do-gooders really need to go back home. I can say in all honesty that any US prozelytising just makes me want to puke these days.

None of this is to exonerate horrors perpetrated by the Serbs in the past, but many of the posters here have oversimplified the situation and revealed a poisonous dislike of Serbian people as a whole in the process. I find this very sad.

Of course I will be accused of being pro-Serb if I mention Bridge on the Drina, but I still think it is a useful starting point for a better understanding of some of the issues involved.

To paint some broader brushstrokes, those here who know anything about Nagorno Karabakh, Abkhazia or South Ossetia may appreciate that a similar situation may well develop as a result of Kosovo's independence. I do not think this process has been adequately thought through. I may not be a policy maker, but my work has at various times had a lot to do with all of these places, so I do have a small idea about it.

Whatever happens, when I read discussions such as these, it does not give me much faith in human nature, but feel free to keep on hating if that's what keeps you happiest.

PetroNYC, on the one hand your view is refreshing, on the other hand how exactly do you get "beyond the point of past hatred", without sweeping problems under the carpet? The independence of Kosovo can easily be misunderstood as a triumph of thinking along ethnic lines, and therefore not bode well for the development of democracy in Kosovo itself and other parts of the world with ethnic tensions. In this regard, the independence of Kosovo is a step backwards and can only be justified by the precedents of secession from what was once Yugoslavia (in a sense a failed state), and above all by the massive violation of human rights by the Serbian state.

It shouldn't be forgotten that in principle, a state's borders are garanteed by international law (uti possidetis rule); this static element helps maintain peace. The dynamic elements like independence movements somehow need to be reconciled with that. In the case of Kosovo, an agreement with the participation of Serbia would have been preferable. There is the danger that the recent development fuels nationalist parties in Serbia rather than encouraging modernization.

Can they really be considered precedents? Slovenia, Croatia et al. were constituent republics of the SFRY.

But not of Serbia ...

History of Slovenia

History of Croatia

No doubt, it is a personal journey for everyone involved. How did Germany get beyond its hatred for Jews or anyone outside the Arian race? Maybe, in some cases, it hasn't. In the past 60 years it seems that some have learned to move on with their lives while others still believe there is a need for a pure race. In perhaps a not so unrelated topic, the Pro-München party seems to be causing some waves with its stance against a mosque. Apples and oranges aside, part of being a democracy is learning to accept other points of views and learning to compromise. It may not always be the way things should be, but it's a step in the right direction. By no means, do I suggest sweeping the problems under the carpet, instead, address them, face up to them, own them (i.e., take responsibility for your actions). That's what being a responsible, civic-minded person does. As the adage goes, with great freedoms come great responsibilities. Placing blame on who did what to who first does not solve issues. It just causes societies to become stagnant, wallowing in their own miseries. People need to learn how to work, live and love together if they want to get beyond the point of past hatred and only the more enlightened minds of the people of Serbia and Kosovo can do that. Otherwise, they will be faced with the same problems over and over again, creating either a stalemate and stunt in societal growth or they end up killing each other. Either way, unless they can learn to forgive each other for each other's past grievances, there's really no hope for a happy and fruitful future, for either society. But that's the power of forgiveness. Learning to swallow one's pride and say, "I'm sorry." It seems like an oversimplified solution, but it works. Often the most profound outcomes derive from the simplest solutions. But as I said, it's not something any outside gov't entity can accomplish. It's up to the people of each community to come to terms with the past and realize the only way to move forward is to accept each other for who they are. All it takes is one person, one spirit, one mind to make a difference.

Meaning?

PetroNYC: "All it takes is one person, one spirit, one mind to make a difference."

only if it's the right person, spirit and mind- Politician, celebrity, second coming of christ, take your pick- but the average man on the street suddenly deciding "hey, we should all just get along!" isn't going to accomplish much of anything... except perhaps getting him institutionalized. You need someone in the public eye who can influence a lot of people and can make them question themselves and their thoughts and that can't be just anyone. Unless of course when you say "...one mind one spirit..." you're talking in the "being of the same mind..." sense of the phrase, in which case what you really mean is "all it takes is everyone deciding to get along to make a difference"
Oversimplification. Simplifying matters is fine by me, but only to a degree. The simple solution is often the best, but if you oversimplify things, the simple solution becomes an abstract idea, like "world peace".

Maybe I'm just naîve, but I like to think of the chain reaction even a regular joe can cause by doing what's been suggested. (just like that new commercial in the states where one person sees another person's good deeds and it just leads back around in a circle.) Handling things on a more personal level and then his family and friends seeing the way he is and how happy his life becomes and they say, "hey, Joe! Why you so happy" and joe turns to them and says, "I don't know...I learned to let go of all my past grievances and forgive those who have erred against me." Really? that's it? Joe says, yep, that's it. "hmmm", his neighbor/family/or friend replies, "Maybe I should give it a try." and before you know it everyone in the community has learned how to behave in a different way. But alas, it's probably just another lost cause, like world peace. BUT realities have a funny way of starting out as abstract ideas and I hope and believe that world peace will be achieved - maybe not by the end of my lifetime, but eventually. And if the Aztec or Mayan calendars have anything to say about it, we better get cracking - we only have approx. 5 more years left (if you believe in that sort of thing). Anyway, eventually, with newer, faster, easier ways of communicating, one day, we probably will all be of the same mind and, hopefully, it will be for the betterment of all. And if not, so be it. At least I know personally that I tried to leave the world a little better than the way I came into it. In the end, that's all that really matters. And if people don't agree with me, that's okay too. I could go on and on, but I have to go. Sooner or later, everyone will realize the only actions you can control are your own and, therefore, it's up to the individual to decide what kind of life they want to live and how they want to leave this world when they die. Everything else is immaterial!

@PetroNYC: Where can I get some of those drugs?? would you share? please? I do agree on one major point, there, though: "the only actions you can control are your own", even if I don't agree that sooner or later everyone will realise it.

So how was the rally, anyway?

So what happened? I wait with baited bated breath!

So. This... meet-up to "discuss" the Kosovo independence "issue"... Who else is thinking of going?

because by the ters if yur recent argument it appears that is the only regime in synchrony

Don't understand BtC.
I have given NO indication of support for the state of North Korea o this thread or anywhere else.

You have said yourself there are "issues" with Kosovan UDI.
Don't tell me you've yourself changed from a fluffy middle of the road social democrat to a murderous tanky?

Don't expect to find an answer in this thread, b_r, because there's hardly any mention of international law in it.

Barring any oversights on my part, aside from a reference to the Security Council Resolution 1244 in post #1 and a few mentions of the UN Convention on Genocide and of the ICTY (pp. 12-14), the only posts that address (briefly) the Kosovo independence question from the angle of international law are RainyDays' posts #101 and 328.

th e only truly marxist lenninist stae in the world is North Korea now.

You have staed xyou are opposed to maked driven international capitalism so North Korea strikes me as the only place immune to that.

THose friendly Serb protesters in Belgrade, set the US, Croatian and Slovenian consulate on fire and burned at least one guy to death. They hung the Russia flad in place of the American one. My sympathy for Serbia is growing by the minute.

Regarding Beejeesus' post: I had the same experience in Kosovo with the power going out constantly. Serbia has had economic sanctions against Kosovo for awhile now, resulting in the power shortages -- which first began when Serbia destroyed all of their power facilities during the war -- and highly inflated food prices (a bottle of oil costs 2 euro, which is more than it costs in expensive Munich). People have an average income of about 30 euro a month and use oil every day for cooking. The only way to survive is to grow your own food.

From BBC Online:

"Marxist-Leninist" it may claim to be but can you see the working class there in control of the means of production, distribution and exchange?
Or is it ruled by a self serving unelected oligarch class who cynically use the suffering of the population for their own position?

Not supporting western market capitalism as it now exists doesn't mean one lines up with any other state that the western ruling class has its demogogue.
You are obviously far too young to remember but back in the day those opposed to the savagrey of Thatcher were told to "go back to Russia".
As if opposing Thatcher made one a fan of Brezhnev.
It was a crap argument from the right then comrade and it is a crap argument now. Mind you don't fall into that trap.

I'm not falling in to the trap don't worry but even in the 70s Britian was a capitalist social democracy in Europe much as it is today. likewise Germany, France and all the other members of the EU. But wait a minute, you seemed to have a problem with that?

I have a problem with capitalism as it exists in Europe yes.

Kosovo is jumping out of the Serbian frying pan into the EU fire and its the working class who get burned.
I can almosr hear the slavvering in Brussels from here as its now "development" slush fund a go go.
Different flag, same set of crooks.

Just seen heard Irelands entry for Eurovision: Dustin the Turkey!

Perhaps the following clip is appropriate here: Geburt einer Nation by Laibach.
Laibach, or Ljubljana, of course being the capital of Slovenia, yet another nation to have emerged from the former Yugoslavia (and doing quite well at that).

Please note the singer's headgear and peruse a few of their other videos - always the same. That is consistency a German would be proud of.

Slovenia of course being one if not the most economicly developed areas in ex Yugoslavia.
Part of the reason for the break up of states, including this one is when the richer areas object to paying for the poorer areas.
Look at Italy for an example.