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Protest against Kosovo independence

3pm Saturday 23.Feb.2008 @ Marienplatz

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > South Germany > Munich > Munich news
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XabiAlonso
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Feb 22 2008, 4:32 pm) *
@XabiAlonso

So do you believe Kosovo should be allowed to be independent, if not... why?

I don't particularly care one way or the other. I just felt it worthwhile to point out that all this ethnic cleansing or genocide or whatever you want to call it didn't actually happen.
Owain Glyndwr
maybe you should read your way through this list before spouting such tripe

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Ethnic_Cleansing.htm

QUOTE
Acareva Serb forces reportedly burned this village in the Drenica region on 30 March.

Bela Crvka

Serb forces reportedly killed 35 people, then dumped their bodies near the Bellaja River between the Rogova and Bela Crvka railroad. By 28 March, Serb forces reportedly had killed as many as 500 civilians in this town.

Bellenice

Serb forces reportedly executed 60 young male Kosovar Albanians on 1 April.

Bruznic

Serb forces reportedly burned down this village near Vucitrn in early April, and a Kosovar Albanian refugee also claimed that Serb forces killed 100 ethnic Albanians there following the Rambouillet conference.

Bujanovac

According to refugee reports, Serb forces removed all the young ethnic Albanian males from this town on 26 and 27 April, dressed them in Serb military uniforms, and are using them as human shields or decoys to escort military convoys.

Cirez

Serb forces reportedly used 20,000 Albanian Kosovars as human shields against NATO bombings and killed 21 school teachers in late March. According to recent refugee reports, Serb forces have killed over 150 ethnic Albanian men and women near Cirez. The Serbs reportedly forced the remaining villagers to bury the corpses. Refugees also claim that as many as 200 ethnic Albanians were being detained there by Serb security forces as of 5 April.

Dakovica

Armed Serb civilians are active in the town and burned a building where a group of ethnic Albanians were taking cover during a NATO airstrike, according to refugee reports. In addition, over 100 ethnic Albanians were reportedly executed by Serb units in this city. Seventy bodies were reportedly found in two houses and 33 were found in a nearby river after Serb forces separated the men from the women and children. All Albanian Kosovars remaining in the town were warned to leave by 29 March, and Serb forces began burning ethnic Albanian homes, shops, and markets. Nearly 14,000 refugees from Dakovica fled to the Albanian border crossing point at Prushit on 5 April. On 27 April, Serb forces reportedly executed 200 military-aged ethnic Albanian men.

Deneral Jankovic

Several Kosovar Albanian refugees claim that Serb security forces have detained as many as 5,000 ethnic Albanians in a cement factory in this border town. All of the detainees were released in late April, according to a Kosovar Albanian refugee.

Dobrosevac

Refugees claim that on 2 May, Serb forces gathered over 150 ethnic Albanians in a mosque, where they separated at least 40 young men, drove them to Dobrosevac, and executed them. The Serbs reportedly buried the bodies in a mass grave north of Glogovac near Dobrosevac.

Donje Stanovce

According to refugee reports, Serb forces went door to door on 19 April, robbed ethnic Albanians of their money, and told them they had 24 hours to leave. All of the ethnic Albanians had been forcibly expelled from this village by 23 April.

Draganica

Serb forces executed three ethnic Albanian men on 13 April, according to refugee reports.

Dragas

Serb forces reportedly surrounded this village on 29 March and ordered the ethnic Albanian residents to leave immediately. One refugee claimed to have seen Serb forces execute and mutilate eight ethnic Albanian men.

Gatnja

According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed five ethnic Albanian men in this town on 2 April.

Glodane

A large concentration of Kosovar IDPs was observed in this town under guard by Serb forces in early April, but then disappeared.

Glogovac

The Albanian residential area has been burned, sending displaced persons into the Cicavica mountains. On 12 April, Serb forces reportedly executed 50 ethnic Albanian refugees as they were leaving town. Refugees say that Serb forces later targeted villages outside of Glogovac, where they killed 100 additional ethnic Albanians on 30 April. Glogovac also reportedly housed a mass detention and execution center for Kosovar men.

On 20 April, Albanian press reported that ethnic Albanians discovered the bodies of 76 civilians who had been killed by Serb forces in Glogovac. Kosovapress reporting from 23 April claimed that Serb forces had killed at least 64 ethnic Albanians between 18 and 19 April. According to refugee reports, Serb forces exhumed the bodies of at least 50 ethnic Albanians in Glogovac and transported them by truck to the nearby village of Cikatovo on 14 May. The bodies were then buried in individual graves. Although it could not be determined who buried the bodies, overhead imagery confirmed the presence of at least 70 new individual graves in a cemetery north of Glogovac in mid-May.

Gnjilane

Between 7 and 15 April, Serb forces reportedly extorted and physically abused ethnic Albanians in this town, according to refugee reports. Additional refugees claim that on 16 April, the paramilitary units ordered all ethnic Albanians out of the town, or be killed. At least 1,000 IDPs departed and were harassed by Serb forces along the way. Men were reportedly separated from the convoy and killed; Serb forces reportedly ordered other refugees to bury the bodies of at least six ethnic Albanians. Two of the bodies had been burned, while the other four had bullet wounds to the back of the head.

Goden

Serb forces executed 20 men, including schoolteachers, on 25 March before burning the village.

Gornje Obrinje

A Kosovar Albanian refugee claimed that Serb forces executed 12 ethnic Albanians on 5 April.

Grabovac

According to refugee reports, Serb forces massacred at least 20 ethnic Albanians on 20 April.

Istok

One thousand refugees from this town arrived at the border with Macedonia on 8 April. Some refugees said that an unknown number of people had died en route and others were turned back by Serb police near Raska and Novi Pazar. According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed 45 ethnic Albanian civilians on 16 April.

Izbica

Serb forces have reportedly killed 270 ethnic Albanians since mid-March. Kosovar Albanian refugees reportedly saw bodies that appeared to have been tortured and burned. Overhead imagery confirmed the presence of a mass burial site. Video taken by a Kosovar Albanian in Izbica from mid-April showed the corpses of at least 100 ethnic Albanian men, most with wounds to the head.

Jovic

Serb forces reportedly separated men from columns of ethnic Albanian civilians, and a Kosovar Albanian refugee claimed that he saw 34 corpses in the town.

Kaaniku

Kosovar Albanian refugees claim that Serb forces massacred 45 ethnic Albanians on 9 April and dumped their bodies in a mass grave.

Kacanik

A Kosovar Albanian refugee claimed that as many as 300 masked Serb soldiers forcibly expelled ethnic Albanian villagers toward Prizren in late March. An ethnic Albanian refugee reportedly witnessed Serb forces execute at least five Albanian civilians on 27 March. On 14 April, Serb forces reportedly drove men into a pasture, where they forced them to kneel and pledge allegiance to Serbia. The Serbs then fired at them, killing at least 12 ethnic Albanians. Refugees further reported that Serb forces killed and buried over 60 ethnic Albanian civilians on 1 and 2 May.

On 9 April, refugees observed five men dressed in dark colors digging a trench at a cemetery behind a gas station in Kacanik. The five men were unloading what appeared to be bodies in white bags into the trench from a small trailer.

Kamena Glava

On 6 April, Serb paramilitary units reportedly looted and burned the village. After driving the villagers into the woods for ten days, VJ forces ordered them to leave the area on 17 April.

Klina

The expulsion of the town -- s ethnic Albanian population began on 28 March, with Serb forces removing residents from their homes and ordering them out of the country. Serb forces reportedly used 500 Kosovar Albanian men as human shields during fighting with KLA forces. A refugee who survived the fighting claimed that the men were robbed of their possessions and forced to strip naked and lie in a field for two hours while Serb artillery fired on nearby KLA positions.

Kolic

Serb forces reportedly killed at least 70 Kosovar Albanian males on 23 April, according to refugee reports. In addition, a video tape of the incident was reportedly made by an ethnic Albanian refugee.

Komoglava

According to refugees who arrived in Macedonia on 29 April, Serb forces attacked this ethnic Albanian village in mid-April. After surrounding the village, Serb forces burned 90 percent of the 800 ethnic Albanian homes and expelled the villagers.

Kosovska Mitrovica

Serb forces have reportedly expelled all Kosovar Albanians from this city since 23 March. In addition, over 200 Albanian homes and shops have been torched, and Serb forces have killed prominent Albanian Kosovars, according to refugee reports. Latif Berisha, a poet and President of the Democratic Alliance of the Mitrovica Municipality, was executed in his home, and Agim Hajrizi, Chairman of the Assembly of the Independent Workers -- Union, was murdered along with his mother and 12-year-old son. Serb forces reportedly looted Kosovar Albanian shops and burned Albanian homes around a barracks that was targeted by NATO air strikes in an apparent attempt to blame NATO for the damage. Serb forces reportedly were continuing to burn villages around this town as of 2 April. According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed 15 Kosovar Albanian men on 15 April.

A Kosovar Albanian refugee claimed that Serb forces separated young ethnic Albanian men from the general population, tied their hands together, and led them into the street. Although the refugee did not witness any mass executions, she did witness one VJ soldier shooting an ethnic Albanian while he sat in a car. A refugee from a nearby village claims to have witnessed Serb civilians executing a young ethnic Albanian boy.

Kosovo Polje

Serb forces reportedly forced ethnic Albanians into their homes and then threw hand grenades inside, according to refugee reports. Other refugee reports claimed that ethnic Albanians were burned alive in their homes, and that on 28 March, Serb paramilitary forces killed at least 70 Kosovar Albanian civilians. Serb forces reportedly entered the village on 4 April, collected all the villagers, confiscated their personal documents and car keys, and then transported them to the border by train. During the initial attack, an ethnic Albanian refugee claimed to have witnessed Serb forces massacre and mutilate six Albanian civilians. According to refugee reports, Serb police at the Kosovo Polje train station raped five young Albanian women in the train station basement.

Kotlina

According to refugees from this town near Kacanik, 50-60 ethnic Albanian men are missing. The rest of the Kosovar inhabitants were reportedly loaded onto trains and sent to Macedonia. Ethnic Albanians on 8 April discovered a mass grave suspected of containing the bodies of 26 persons, according to refugee reports. The victims allegedly were murdered in mid-March by a Serb paramilitary group, which had reportedly entered the town and separated the ethnic Albanian men from their families.

Kralan

Kosovar Albanian refugees claim that Serb forces executed 100 ethnic Albanian civilians on 4 April.

Kroikovk

According to Kosovapress, Serb forces have rounded up numerous ethnic Albanian men in the Glogovoac area and detained them at a dairy farm in Kroikovk in late May. It is not known how many men are being detained.

Likovac

Serb forces reportedly burned this village south of Srbica on 30 March.

Lipljan

Serb forces reportedly forced the ethnic Albanian population out of several villages in the area on 20 April. In addition, they burned and looted Albanian residences. According to Kosovar Albanian press, Serb forces in early May exhumed the corpses of ethnic Albanian civilians they had massacred on 18 April and interred in a mass grave. The Serbs later forced ethnic Albanian villagers to rebury the bodies in individual graves. Recently arrived refugees also report that Serb forces are using the Lipljan prison to detain, interrogate, and torture ethnic Albanian men. As many as 900 men are reportedly prisoned there.

Lismire

According to refugee reports, Serb forces surrounded the village on 4 April and forced all ethnic Albanians out of their homes. After burning their homes, Serb forces deported the population to the Macedonian border by train.

Ljubenica

Refugees reported on 8 April that Serb forces murdered at least 100 ethnic Albanians from this village in western Kosovo.

Ljubiste

According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed at least 20 ethnic Albanians in late April.

Malakrusa (Krusa-e-Vogel)

One hundred twelve men were shot and their bodies burned in an apparent attempt to conceal the evidence, according to a wounded and burnt survivor of the executions.

Mali Alas

Serb forces reportedly surrounded this village on 21 April and separated the villagers by gender. According to refugee reports, the men were reportedly sent to a field, where Serb forces killed at least 35 of them. Several of the bodies were later burned.

Malo Ribare

According to refugee reports, Serb forces raped four young girls and killed 19 ethnic Albanians in late April.

Malisevo

Serb forces reportedly razed most of the town and its surrounding villages. Refugees from the town claim to have witnessed Serb forces burning ethnic Albanians alive. Women refugees claim that Serb forces were separating men from the groups of refugees. Serb forces reportedly executed approximately 50 men in this town on 27 March. Part of the town was set on fire on 30 March. By 1 April the Serbs appeared to have completed their cleansing, and refugees reported that the 50,000-140,000 IDPs then in the Malisevo-Dulje area were bombed and strafed by Serb aircraft and helicopters.

Morina

According to Kosovapress, ethnic Albanians in Morina near Srbica discovered three mass graves on 27 May. The villagers discovered at least 10 bodies, but could not continue their investigation because of the presence of Serb units operating in the area.

Nakarad

Serb forces reportedly killed at least 160 Kosovar Albanian civilians near the Serbian cemetary in late April.

Negrovce

According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed five ethnic Albanians on 5 April.

Orahovac

Refugees reported that an unknown number of ethnic Albanian civilians were killed during the ethnic cleansing of the city. A group of Romas (gypsies) who arrived at the Albanian border on 8 April claimed they were expelled because Serb authorities said they were originally from Albania and not -- true -- Kosovars. The group also reported that Serb forces massacred some 50 ethnic Albanians, including women, children, and the elderly.

According to refugees, as many as 700 men were used as human shields in early April. The ethnic Albanian men were forced to stand in front of tanks in the rain for two days with their hands tied behind their backs. A few of them eventually escaped by paying the soldiers 10,000 German marks. Serb forces killed 12 ethnic Albanian civilians in Orahovac on 9 May, according to Kosovar press reports.

An ethnic Albanian refugee reported that she and 24 other women were gang raped by Serb forces on 29 April.

Orize

According to refugee reports, Serb forces killed over 200 ethnic Albanian men between 10 and 12 April.

Orlate

According to refugees, this small village located on the crossroads between Pristina, Pec, and Malisevo was set on fire by Serbian forces on 30 March after some 200 ethnic Albanian men had been executed.

Pec

Serb forces may have expelled 50,000 Albanian Kosovars from Pec, and reportedly attacked a column of refugees leaving Pec on 6 April. At least 50 ethnic Albanians reportedly were killed and buried in the yards of their homes on the evening of 27 March. On the same day, all ethnic Albanians were reportedly herded into a five-story building in the center of town. MUP forces then loaded them on buses and transported them out of the city. On 28 March, 200 ethnic Albanians who sought sanctuary in a Catholic church in Pec were removed and forced out of town. To further terrorize ethnic Albanians, Serbs reportedly looted and burned their homes and shops throughout the town. On 1 May, Serb forces reportedly continued to burn ethnic Albanian homes in villages around Pec. According to Kosovar Albanian press reports, Serb forces executed 26 civilians near Pec in early May.

Podujevo

Serb security forces were burning villages east and southeast of this town as of 5 April, according to refugee reports. Serb forces may have executed 200 Kosovar Albanian men of military age. In addition, Serbs reportedly were removing ethnic Albanians from their cars and shooting them on the spot. Ninety percent of the town reportedly has been burned. On 19 April, Serb forces reportedly used ethnic Albanians as human shields along the road between Podujevo and Pristina. Serb forces killed at least 15 ethnic Albanian men between 26 and 28 May, according to Kosovapress.

Poklek

Ethnic Albanian refugees claim to have seen at least six corpses in a house in late April. Serb forces in the town warned the ethnic Albanians to leave, saying that their situation would be worse when the -- real war starts. Additional refugees claim that Serb forces buried at least 64 ethnic Albanian corpses in a mass grave.

Popovo

Serbian aircraft reportedly bombed this village southwest of Podujevo, killing 10 ethnic Albanians.

Pristina

Kosovar Albanian refugees were forcibly expelled first from their homes and then from Pristina via train. Several refugees claim that Serb soldiers used loudspeakers to warn ethnic Albanians to leave town or die. A Kosovar refugee reported seeing Serbian forces supervise a mass burial on 30 March; gypsies were throwing bodies encased in plastic bags into a large pit. On 2 April, a Kosovar Albanian claimed to have seen three truckloads of dead bodies accompanied by three or four armored vehicles in a graveyard in Pristina.

Serb forces appeared to have completed military operations in the city and were focusing on ethnically cleansing the IDP-swollen city by 4 April. Male ethnic Albanians, including prominent human rights lawyer Bjram Kelmendi and his two sons, reportedly were executed. Serb paramilitary units burned and looted Albanian homes and stores throughout the city. Mixed Serb police and paramilitary units separated men from women and children, and Serbs distributed pamphlets admonishing Kosovars to leave or be killed. Approximately 25,000 ethnic Albanians were sent by rail from Pristina to Macedonia on 1 April and over 200,000 reportedly were detained pending transport. Most of these IDPs reportedly were without food, water, medicine, or shelter. In addition, refugees traveling from Pristina via trains report that Serb paramilitary units boarded the cars and stole all of their valuables.

The civilians reportedly were processed at the Pristina Sports Complex and then marched to the train station, Russian Ambassador to Yugoslavia Yuri Kotov, however, visited the Pristina Stadium on 5 April and claimed that there was no truth to the reports that Serb forces were using the stadium as a detention center. Buses and large cargo trucks also were used to transport IDPs to within three to six miles of the border, where they were left to make their way out on foot.

Refugees report that the ethnic Albanian neighborhoods of Pristina resemble a ghost town. Pristina police reportedly arrested as many as 20 former OSCE/KVM local employees, and authorities were said to have searched for any Kosovar Albanian who held an official government position, worked for an international organization, or worked with foreign journalists.

Prizren

Serb forces executed 20 to 30 civilians and transported ethnic Albanians to the border in late March according to refugee accounts. At the border, Serb forces confiscated all personal documentation, removed all license plates from vehicles, and warned refugees never to return to Kosovo.

A Kosovar Albanian who traveled to Prizren for a funeral on 2 April reportedly witnessed ethnic Albanian civilians being forcibly evicted from their homes on two hours notice. The houses were then either set ablaze or used to shelter Serb forces. Another refugee from Prizren reportedly witnessed Serb forces burying numerous ethnic Albanian bodies and burning homes throughout the town. Many ethnic Albanians remain in hiding because they fear Serb reprisals.

According to refugee reports, Serb forces surrounded Prizren on 2 May. Those ethnic Albanians who were allowed to leave were stripped of their identity cards and forced to walk to the border. The remaining ethnic Albanians are reportedly experiencing widespread food shortages and Serb store owners have reportedly placed signs in their windows reading "No bread for Albanians."

Pusto Selo

The bodies of some 70 ethnic Albanians ranging in age from 14 to 50 were reportedly discovered by IDPs on 1 April. Serb authorities reportedly executed a survivor who sought medical treatment nearby. Overhead imagery confirmed the presence of a mass burial site. According to KLA press, Serb forces began exhuming this mass burial site on 23 April, and sent the bodies to Orahovac by truck.

Racak

According to refugee reports, Serb forces reportedly executed two ethnic Albanians on 13 April.

Radavac

Serb forces buried 27 ethnic Albanians in a mass grave near Radavac on 20 May, according to refugee reports.

Rezala

Serb forces reportedly burned this village south of Srbica on 30 March. According to ethnic Albanian refugees, Serb forces killed at least 80 civilians on 5 April. On 14 April, ethnic Albanians discovered a mass grave containing 70 bodies.

Resnik

According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed nine ethnic Albanians on 29 March.

Rozaje

Serb forces reportedly fired on a column of IDPs in Rozaje on 21 April, killing at least 12 ethnic Albanians.

Rugovo

Serb forces reportedly executed at least 50 ethnic Albanians.



Sjenica

After forcibly expelling all ethnic Albanians from this village in late April, Serb forces occupied their homes.

Slakovce

According to refugee reports, Serb forces forcibly expelled all the ethnic Albanians from this village on 15 April. After forcing all the villagers into the woods, Serb forces reportedly raped an unknown number of women. The villagers remained in the forest for two weeks before leaving for Urosevac.

Slatina

Serb forces reportedly abducted and executed 26 ethnic Albanian men in late March. According to refugees, the Serbs threw the corpses down a well and later collapsed the well with explosives. Additional refugee reports claim that Serb forces killed 13 ethnic Albanians on 20 April.

Slivovo

According to refugee reports, Serb forces killed at least 16 ethnic Albanians and buried their bodies in a common grave in late April.

Slovinje

According to refugee reports, Serb forces killed and mutilated at least 40 ethnic Albanian civilians on 15 April. On 30 April, police reportedly exhumed 16 corpses from two mass graves.

Smerkovnica

According to reports from Kosovar Albanian refugees recently released from Smerkovnica prison, the prison is being used to detain ethnic Albanian men rounded up in Kosovska Mitrovica and Vucitrn. The Serbs have detained large numbers of military-aged men in the vicinity and are interrogating them at the prison. It is not known how many men remain imprisoned.

Smira

On 7 April, Serb forces reportedly executed five ethnic Albanian civilians, according to refugee reports.

Sojevo

According to refugee reports, Serb forces executed five ethnic Albanian civilians in late March.

Srbica

Serb forces reportedly emptied the town of its Kosovar inhabitants and executed 115 ethnic Albanian males over the age of 18 in late March and early April. On 3 April, Serb forces reportedly forced ethnic Albanians out of their homes, confiscated their identity papers, and loaded them on trains bound for Macedonia. According to additional refugee reports, Serb forces killed an additional 24 ethnic Albanian civilians in areas around Srbica on 26 April. An ammunition plant in Srbica was reportedly used as a temporary detention center in late March.

Stimlje

Serb forces in late March reportedly burned the headquarters of a human rights committee and the Democratic League of Kosovo, as well as the building housing the former OSCE mission. Serb forces reportedly burned Kosovar Albanian homes, stores, and vehicles, and some 25,000 civilians were driven out of the city to villages to the south. In early April, Serb forces reportedly killed five ethnic Albanian civilians.

Suva Reka

On 25 March, Serb forces reportedly massacred at least 30 Kosovar Albanians, most by burning them alive in their homes and by 28 March, Serb forces reportedly burned 60 percent of the town. A Kosovar Albanian refugee from the town claimed that Serb forces killed 40 men on 4 April and dumped their bodies into two mass graves. Serb military and police forces reportedly have killed as many as 350 ethnic Albanians in this town, which has been cleansed of its Albanian population. According to Kosovar Albanian refugee reports, a group of Serb police and civilians robbed and killed an ethnic Albanian family living in a former OSCE office before burning their bodies. According to refugee reports, Serb forces killed at least 35 ethnic Albanian civilians on 13 May. One refugee claimed to have witnessed Serb forces using bulldozers to dig a grave and bury 30 bodies.

Trstenik

Serb forces reportedly executed three ethnic Albanians on 7 April, according to refugee reports.

Tutin

According to refugee reports, Serb forces entered this village on 24 April and forcibly expelled all of the ethnic Albanian residents.

Urosevac

Serb forces reportedly forcibly expelled ethnic Albanian civilians from their homes on 10 April, and are now using some of the homes as barracks. Former Albanian shops and homes were reportedly given to Serb villagers. Serb forces reportedly are targeting the homes of prominent politicians and intellectuals. As many as 40 ethnic Albanians have been killed, and there have been refugee reports of the rape of young Albanian girls. According to an ethnic Albanian refugee, Serb forces have forced Albanian males to dig defensive positions on the southeast side of the city, with the Serbs forcing 25 civilians from the nearby town of Starosello to dig trenches from 10 to 12 April. According to Kosovapress from late May, Serb forces rounded up numerous ethnic Albanian civilians around Urosevac and were detaining them at a restaurant called Pranvera.

Varosh

According to refugee reports, Serb paramilitary forces reportedly entered ethnic Albanian homes, expelled the inhabitants at knife-point, and stole their belongings. They reportedly killed an unknown number of Kosovar Albanians and removed their bodies.

Vatay

According to refugee reports, Serb forces reportedly killed 14 ethnic Albanians on 13 April. One refugee claimed that he was forced to bury the bodies, and that all of the corpses he saw were shot in the back of the head.

Velika Hoca

Two paramilitary units, Arkan's "Tigers" and the "White Eagles," are reportedly based in a housing complex in the town and control the area between Orahovac and Suva Reka.

Velika Krusa

Reports from refugees in late March that Serb forces killed 150-160 Kosovar Albanian men after separating them from the women and children appear to be corroborated in a videotape shot by a survivor, who also gave the names of two dozen of the victims. The BBC aired the refugee -- s video showing dead bodies lying in ditches and in the streets; according to the refugee, all of the victims had single bullet wounds in the back of the head or neck. A female refugee claimed that 40 men were executed by Serb forces in Velika Krusa, while other refugees claim that homes were set ablaze, burning to death over 60 Kosovar Albanians -- including women and children. A mass grave containing some 50 bodies has been reported and, according to refugees, police told residents of the nearby villages of Lashec, Kobanje, and Atmanxha that "as a gift, we will only kill ten of you," and then told the survivors to "go to NATO."

Vrsevac

Refugees report that Serb police used ethnic Albanians as human shields here on 7 April.

Vucitrn

Serb forces reportedly burned all houses previously rented by the OSCE and looted Kosovar Albanian homes. Refugees from the town also claim that men were being separated from their families. On 27 March, Serb forces reportedly killed four young Kosovar Albanians, including a 14-year-old girl. By 29 March, Serb forces had reportedly herded Kosovar Albanians into a school in the city, and refugees from the town claim that the men were being separated from their families. Since mid-April, Serb forces have reportedly killed over 100 ethnic Albanians in villages north of Vucitrn. Additional refugees witnessed Serb forces removing young men from convoys and shooting them. According to Albanian press, Serb forces rounded up large numbers of Kosovar Albanian men from Vucitrn on 21 May and sent them to the Smerkovnica prison. In addition, Serb forces killed at least 23 ethnic Albanians in Vucitrn on 26 May, according to Kosovapress.

Zheger

Serb forces reportedly expelled all ethnic Albanians from this village, before burning it on 13 April.

Zhure

On 28 March, local police reportedly ordered all ethnic Albanians to leave town. As many as 7,000 Kosovar Albanians may have been displaced as a result.

Zulfaj

Serb forces reportedly expelled all ethnic Albanians from this village, then burned it down.

Zym

Serb forces reportedly burned this southern Kosovo town.
Odenwalder
QUOTE (XabiAlonso @ Feb 22 2008, 3:48 pm) *
I don't particularly care one way or the other. I just felt it worthwhile to point out that all this ethnic cleansing or genocide or whatever you want to call it didn't actually happen.

blink.gif Maybe I misread that rolleyes.gif
thefirelane
QUOTE (XabiAlonso @ Feb 22 2008, 3:48 pm) *
I don't particularly care one way or the other. I just felt it worthwhile to point out that all this ethnic cleansing or genocide or whatever you want to call it didn't actually happen.

Ok, my two questions then:

1) What did happen?
2) Why do people say genocide happened?

For #2 please be specific... don't just say something like "the western media, blah blah" I want an actual motive.
Genie
OG: the KLA had their share of organized civilian killings too.
Owain Glyndwr
I don't doubt that Genie, but to claim that Genocide didn't happen is ludicrous.
BeeGeeJesus
Nuh uh!! The Holocaust didn't happen either!
Genie
OG: Fair enough, but the point being made was that the Serbs lost their right to govern Kosovo because of these killings, which in my book pretty much strips the KLA of their right to govern Kosovo, too.
XabiAlonso
QUOTE (Owain Glyndwr @ Feb 22 2008, 4:50 pm) *
maybe you should read your way through this list before spouting such tripe

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Ethnic_Cleansing.htm

Thank you very much for that list. I note that the sources appear to be:

1. Various U.S. Department of State or U.S. Information Agency reports for spring 1999, consisting mainly of bald claims and anonymous "refugee reports" of atrocities, at a time when the United States and its NATO chums wanted some justification for bombing the place.

2. Press reports from the spring of 1999, examples of precisely the kind of drivel spouted by the western media at the time, with very little to back it up.

It was interesting to note that claims of genocide and ethnic cleansing in relation to Kosovo were not repeated when Milosevic died, and how the horror stories of 1999 were conveniently forgotten.

I would also ask the question that, if the genocide was so widespread and so terrible, why the ICTY at The Hague has done precisely knob all about it, even after Pavkovic gave himself up? IMHO one of the reasons he did so was because, in the sober light of day, he didn't actually have much of a case to answer. Indeed, witnesses have been trooping into The Hague for nearly two years now, testifying that there was neither genocide in Kosovo nor any plan to drive out the civilian ethnic Albanian population.
gucci little piggy
Q -- What do you call a Serbian prostitute?
A -- Slobberdown Mecockyabitch
Odenwalder
QUOTE (Owain Glyndwr @ Feb 22 2008, 3:50 pm) *
4,793 words, 29,978 characters (with spaces), 11 pages (in Word), 628 lines

I think the link was sufficient
Owain Glyndwr
i don't think it was otherwise i wouldn't have quoted. people tend not to read links.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Genie @ Feb 22 2008, 3:59 pm) *
OG: Fair enough, but the point being made was that the Serbs lost their right to govern Kosovo because of these killings, which in my book pretty much strips the KLA of their right to govern Kosovo, too.

The KLA aren't governing Kosovo. The biggest party is the Democratic Party of Kosovo with 37 out of 120 seats. Hashim Thaci was indeed a commander of the KLA but the DPK has non-KLA members too and there are 21 parties altogether in the parliament, which has seats resereved for minorities and includes several Serb parties.

At least the Kosovan parliament gives the right back to Kosovans to have a voice in the running of their own affairs. The Serbs might have changed now but under Milosevic the Kosovan Albanians had no such say. Whether or not there was violence one way or the other this emasculation of Albanian Kosovo in my mind is the main reason why Serbia can never again be trusted to have a hand in its government.
XabiAlonso
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Feb 22 2008, 4:52 pm) *
Ok, my two questions then:

1) What did happen?
2) Why do people say genocide happened?

For #2 please be specific... don't just say something like "the western media, blah blah" I want an actual motive.

1. Kosovo is - was - part of Serbia. Armed Albanians are running amok in Kosovo, shooting away at Serbs and police. The Serbs pull more forces into the province to deal with this and proceed to deal with them... ooops, apparently that's not allowed. A ceasefire follows, whereupon the KLA proceed to reoccupy their positions in violation of the ceasefire, so the Serbs have to do it all over again...

Then the Serbs are presented with this, something which no country will ever agree to. NATO has a perfect opportunity for its fireworks for its 50th anniversary, whilst the Serb forces in Kosovo - after the bombing starts - go "F8ck this, we're getting bombed because of this lot" (these would be the same Albanians whose brethren proved totally incapable of running a country next door and flooded Kosovo with the arms from the plundered arsenals) and stop caring about who might be shooting at them, chucking the Albanians out en masse - exactly the PR NATO needed - pictures of refugees, "fleeing terror", conveniently forgetting to mention that none of this was happening before the airstrikes, which were apparently supposed to prevent the "genocide/ethnic cleansing" and hit the "Serb military might" in Kosovo - ho-ho-ho, cue 12 destroyed tanks and hordes of real refugees.

2. I honestly don't know why people would tell porkies in order to start a war. It's never happened before or since, that's for sure. smile.gif
Bell the cat
QUOTE (XabiAlonso @ Feb 22 2008, 4:14 pm) *
1. Kosovo is - was - part of Serbia. Armed Albanians are running amok in Kosovo, shooting away at Serbs and police. The Serbs pull more forces into the province to deal with this and proceed to deal with them... ooops, apparently that's not allowed. A ceasefire follows, whereupon the KLA proceed to reoccupy their positions in violation of the ceasefire, so the Serbs have to do it all over again...

Much earlier in this thread I went to pains to type a history of Milosevic and the Kosovans to show that Albanian anger did not come out of nowehere on the hapless Serbs. I reproduce it here and suggest you read it before posting something quite so ignorant again:

QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Feb 21 2008, 2:02 pm) *
In the late 80s with the crumbling Warsaw pact, Milosevic realised communism in Yugoslavia had to change or die. Rather than embrace liberalisation, he embraced a very vicious and extreme form of Serbian Nationalism and was duly elected on that ticket. Right from the start he enacted policies within Serbia against minorities, in particular Kosovan Albanians (I can remember hearing about the early horrors of this before even the break up started on Radio 4 but no other government seemed to be taking notice). In 1987 Milosevic on a speech in Kosovo Polje asserted the untramelled right for Serbs to attack all other ethnicities without fear of retribiution. Most commentators see that outrageous public statement to be the first nail in the coffin of the SFRY

When the Serbian president and the Belgrade party leaders objected to this quasi-Nazi turn into Serbian extremist nationalism they were summarily dismissed under trumped up charges. Likewise in 1988 the pliant Serbian government in Montenegro and local government in Vojvodina (a Serb-dominated part of Croatia) were both dismissed and replaced with nationalistic stooges. When moderate non-Serbs like the Slovenian leader raised objections they were accused of being subversives in the pay of foreign powers.

In 1989, the assemblies of Kosovo and Vojvodina were forced to change their constitutions to effectively give direct rule to Belgrade. In Kosovo this provoked a violent reaction and as a result Kosovan Albanians subsequently boycotted all institutions of government meaning that Milosevic could stuff the Kisovan assembly with Serbian nationalists. The result was, from 1989 onwards the Serbian government of Kosovo effectivelky made Albanians second class human beings suspending all education, state support or health facilities for Albanians. Seen in that light it is a wonder that the Kosovan rebellion did not take place earlier. But the Serbian police force and army clamped down hard of Kosovan dissent driving Albanian leaders into exile.

In 1990, Serbian tub thumping and demands for refiorms to downgrade the status of other republics, resulted in a walkout of Croatian and Slovenian communists and the break up of the national communist league, leaving Milosevic to rebrand his party the 'Serbian Socialist Party". Mislosevic now also had control of all Sebian media which was now constantly booming out Serbian nationalist propaganda.

A friend familiar with pre-Milosevic Yugoslavia noted to me that the preciousness of Kosovo to the Serbian identity had never been important in modern Yugoslavia until the Serbian nationalists made it important.

The knockon effect of the Serbian affront was to trigger the election of nationalists in all the other republics and in effect, that made the breakup inevitable and in 1991 Slovenia and Croatia declared independence and the rest is history.
XabiAlonso
QUOTE (Owain Glyndwr @ Feb 22 2008, 4:55 pm) *
I don't doubt that Genie, but to claim that Genocide didn't happen is ludicrous.

Yes, totally and utterly ludicrous, even though the ICTY has failed to convict any of the so-called perpetrators.
Genie
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Feb 22 2008, 4:13 pm) *
The KLA aren't governing Kosovo. The biggest party is the Democratic Party of Kosovo with 37 out of 120 seats. Hashim Thaci was indeed a commander of the KLA but the DPK has non-KLA members too and there are 21 parties altogether in the parliament, which has seats resereved for minorities and includes several Serb parties.

So, along these lines, had Goering joined the CSU, pitched in with some non-Nazis as well, it'd be OK for him to sit in the Reichstag?
XabiAlonso
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Feb 22 2008, 5:18 pm) *
Much earlier in this thread I went to pains to type a history of Milosevic and the Kosovans to show that Albanian anger did not come out of nowehere on the hapless Serbs. I reproduce it here and suggest you read it before posting something quite so ignorant again:

I appreciate the effort but you appear merely to be saying "the Albanians had reason to be annoyed". Perhaps they did. That doesn't change the fact that the cuddly KLA started running around with guns wreaking havoc and killing people. Then there was a response from the authorities, which over the course of year resulted in 2000 deaths (including at least 700-800 of those who were pro-Belgrade).

This - and this is my point on this thread - is a far cry from a genocidal one-sided policy hell-bent on wiping out Albanians, which the hysterical media were presenting to the folks in the various NATO countries.

Of course, Milosevic is responsible for some horrible things. Franjo Tudjman is responsible for some horrible things. Bosnian Muslims are responsible for some horrible things. Albanians are responsible for some horrible things. Milosevic won't be burning on his own, that's for sure.
Uncle Nick
QUOTE (smartedi @ Feb 22 2008, 12:22 am) *
Taiwan is a name of province. The country in Taiwan, is REPUBLIC OF CHINA. Of course they pay tax to China Government and obey the Constitution of Republic of China.

QUOTE (smartedi @ Feb 22 2008, 12:38 am) *
In China, in some special regions, e.g. Hongkong, Macau, Taiwan,
they have their own constitution. and they never pay any taxes to China Central Governments
like other provinces and autonomies.

Just in case nobody has pointed this out you have clearly contradicted yourself, make up your mind!
BeeGeeJesus
QUOTE (XabiAlonso @ Feb 22 2008, 4:14 pm) *
Armed Albanians are running amok in Kosovo, shooting away at Serbs and police.

Really? From what I've seen, it's been the other way around. When was the last time you were there?
Sin
QUOTE (Genie @ Feb 22 2008, 4:22 pm) *
So, along these lines, had Goering joined the CSU, pitched in with some non-Nazis as well, it'd be OK for him to sit in the Reichstag?

Hey! Anything's possible. Olli North is reporting for FoxNEWS.
thefirelane
The irony award should go to this guy:
[img]http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1104140,00.jpg[/img]

Yes, damn those American bastards. Just like the Nazis they support self determination of ethnic minorities! rolleyes.gif
Kay
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Feb 21 2008, 2:02 pm) *
In 1987 Milosevic on a speech in Kosovo Polje (...) Most commentators see that outrageous public statement to be the first nail in the coffin of the SFRY

For the sake of accuracy: that speech was made on 28 June 1989, the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo Polje.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Kay @ Feb 22 2008, 5:43 pm) *
For the sake of accuracy: that speech was made on 28 June 1989, the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo Polje.

wikipedia demurrs:

QUOTE
As animosity between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo deepened during the 1980s, Milošević was sent to talk to a group of Serbs in Kosovo Polje on 24 April 1987. While Milošević was talking to the leadership inside the local cultural hall demonstrators outside clashed with the local Kosovo-Albanian police force.
Kay
I suppose he spoke there every year and there's no doubt that tensions were rising throughout the 1980s, but I still think that when people refer to the "(in)famous speech" they mean the 1989 one, the so-called Gazimestan speech.

QUOTE
The Gazimestan speech was a speech given on 28 June 1989 by Slobodan Milošević, then President of Serbia. It was the centrepiece of a day-long event to mark the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo, in which the medieval Serbian kingdom had been defeated by the Ottoman Empire. The speech was delivered to a huge crowd gathered at the place where the battle had been fought, Gazimestan in the southern Serbian province of Kosovo. It came against a backdrop of intense ethnic tension between ethnic Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo and increasing political tensions between Serbia and the other constituent republics of the then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. (...)

The 28 June 1989 event was attended by a crowd estimated at between half a million and two million people (most estimates put the figure at around a million). (...)
boomtown_rat
Just out of interest (havent read through the whole thread so apolgies if answered), how are the people who were saying that UN 'rules' had to be obeyed with regard to Iraq reconciling that with their disregard for the 'official' UN view of Kosovo? If you're picking and choosing when to tell people they have to stay in line with the UN, isn't that as bad as the actions criticised in the build up to Iraq (i.e. non-regard to UN)
Bell the cat
QUOTE (XabiAlonso @ Feb 22 2008, 4:22 pm) *
Yes, totally and utterly ludicrous, even though the ICTY has failed to convict any of the so-called perpetrators.

ICTY is very slow. It is still in the process of prosecuting Bosnian war criminals. You may remember two years ago there were mass protests when KLA war criminals were indicted. As I understand it, all new ICTY indictments have been suspended until it can be accepted by all sides that the trials must be balanced and focus of war criminals on each of the sides. THAT is why there have yet to be convictions.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (XabiAlonso @ Feb 22 2008, 4:37 pm) *
I appreciate the effort but you appear merely to be saying "the Albanians had reason to be annoyed". Perhaps they did. That doesn't change the fact that the cuddly KLA started running around with guns wreaking havoc and killing people. Then there was a response from the authorities, which over the course of year resulted in 2000 deaths (including at least 700-800 of those who were pro-Belgrade).

The Kosovans suffered almost 20 years of cultural emasculation before the radicalised KLA took action. Yet you seem to blame only the KLA hurting the poor old serbs who never hurt a fly and were only trying to restore order. Give me a break!
Kay
QUOTE (thefirelane @ Feb 21 2008, 11:56 pm) *

@tfl
As someone mentioned already (and as can be seen from the link), that picture is about Srebrenica, not Kosovo. Things are confusing enough as it is, what with half the thread veering off to discuss Tibet and China, so could you please replace the current photo or have a caption added to your post to explain it? I hope you have no objection.
Bato
QUOTE (BeeGeeJesus @ Feb 22 2008, 5:11 pm) *
Really? From what I've seen, it's been the other way around. When was the last time you were there?

Were you EVER there? And where have you seen what you have seen then?
Bato
Bato here again,

I have a good idea.

Listen fellas. Honestly, all joking and sarcasm aside.

Like I said before that this thread is useless because there is so much bad info and it is imposible to answer peoples questions or challenges in a timely manner: I still stand after this statement of mine.

But I think we could solve this by meeting in person.

I would love to have a chance to talk to some of you in person. It seems we have so many different oppinions and I want to realy experience this "live" so we could both have a chance to deffend our possition. I think it is an excellent idea.

Everyone is welcome. Unlike some of the people here who have tryed to and were successful in banning the Chinese fella from responding because of differences of oppinions. That is just pathetic from your side so this invitation excludes you. But everyone who is mature enough to follow the rules we set up together (without rules these symposiums don't really work) and not let him/her self get too excited to the point where swearing and such nonesense occurs is welcome and incuraged to join.

I think this will be the only and best way to make a productive debate about the subjects mentioned.

So open minded and mature members of this post, please do come. I esspecialy ask XABIALONSO to join because you have shown some very interesting opinions that were controversial but have also shown a sort of disinterest to continue the debate so I ask you to please join. I also call the Chinese man and all the ones who had very different oppinions than I and were most active on this thread to come.

I would appreciate the chance to discuss these issues face to face. I think we will all benefit from it. It must not be along meeting, and if weather permits we can even meet by the benches behind the rathaus or something. Lets make it next Saturday at 14:00 o'clock to give all interested sufficient time to plan.

If you are cincerely interested in this idea lets do it. PM me because I really don't have time to go to each response here.

Or we can do it this way. Reply to this post by copying the important info and simply add your name under mine here under.

Meeting to discuss Kosovo's independence and other topics covered in this thread. (Balkan history, wars, Taiwan ...)
To take place on saturday, March 1st. at 14:00 o'clock on the benches behind the Rathaus.

Members interested:

BATO
liutaia
I'd almost be interested in coming just to hear what Bato has to say when confronted with a direct question. After all, it's harder to not notice direct questions which are asked aloud to ones face.

ps. What joking and sarcasm? you think the insults being hurled your way are jokes are sarcasm, you're as socially dimwitted as you are intellectually.
BadDoggie
QUOTE (Bato @ Feb 22 2008, 9:28 pm) *
Listen fellas. Honestly, all joking and sarcasm aside.

This is no joke you Serbian fuck. Your country is guilty of some of the most heinous shit since WWII and your insistence that those your country happily slaughtered remain under your country's control rather than have the right to self-determination fills me with such disgust that it's a wonder I haven't run off to the bathroom to vomit three times while writing this comment alone. Serbia's own independence was "illegal". Serbia's actions since 1985 have been atrocious. I hope some Kosovars do to you and your buddies tomorrow what your country did to them through the 1990s.

I'm trying to remember the last time in history that anyone ever demonstrated against some other region declaring independence.

Go die.

woof.
MonksTown
It's not that hard to imagine BD. Say for example one day, Arizona and New Mexico got a latin majority, they felt shat on by washington and ceceded with the prospect of joining Mexico again?
A lot of white Americans wouldn't be overjoyed about that would they?
gopher
Bad Doggie: You're my hero. Let him have it!!!
gopher
Speaking of guilt. Serbia is also accused of starting WWI!
MonksTown
Austria started World War One after a Serb nationalist offed some ruling class bloke who was heir to an oppressive empire.
MonksTown
Bloody Sunday wasn't exactly Kaffee und Kuchen organised by the British state either.
Keydeck
QUOTE (Bato @ Feb 22 2008, 9:28 pm) *
Unlike some of the people here who have tryed to and were successful in banning the Chinese fella from responding because of differences of oppinions.

You're as fucking dumb as he is if you think his first username went because of a difference of opinion relating to the subject matter of the thread at hand. Although perhaps it is to be expected from someone who carrys the flag of the victim in one hand whilst waving the sword of the aggressor in the other.
thefirelane
Hi Bato, I'm interested... will I be set on fire before or after we discuss this? just curious.

xthnx
MonksTown
As a registered British taxpayer I have less problems with the embassy in Belgrade being set on fire than "my" MPs having their snouts in the trough for expenses which are primarily spent on their spoiled children and spouses drinking in trendy London pubs. Probably a hell of a lot cheaper.
garibaldi
QUOTE (Bato @ Feb 22 2008, 9:28 pm) *
Meeting to discuss Kosovo's independence and other topics covered in this thread. (Balkan history, wars, Taiwan ...)
To take place on saturday, March 1st. at 14:00 o'clock on the benches behind the Rathaus.Members interested:BATO

Bato, do you think we could change the meeting place to Dublin. Combine the meeting with a weekend in Eire - say in a nice pub in the "Liberties" area of Dublin.
BeeGeeJesus
QUOTE (Bato @ Feb 22 2008, 8:50 pm) *
Were you EVER there? And where have you seen what you have seen then?

Since my original response to you got removed... As a matter of fact, I'm in Kosovo right now. When was the last time you were there? I've also spent about 2 years, off and on, in Bosnia. I've seen it all first hand; the abject poverty, the destroyed buildings, the ethnic tensions. You name it. I've spoken to Serbs and I've spoken to Albanians. I've spoken with Croats, too. I've seen the Roma who stand at street corners and beg for money while their infant children hang off of them or, if they are old enough, are begging themselves. I've seen the unemployment and the fact that there aren't sufficient school resources to teach everyone at once to students go to school at 9:00 at night because they are all learning in shifts. I've seen graffiti, spreading hate on boths sides. I witness, daily, the fact that most of Kosovo has no power. The power company provides electricity about an hour a day for many villages. You drive around here at night and it's like driving through a perpetual blackout. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a restaurant where the power goes out while I'm eating and we all sit in the dark, waiting for the generator to kick in. Assuming, of course, that there is a generator. The Albanians live with that every day. Mitrovica always has power and since that's where most Kosovar Serbs live, you can say that most Serbs (and no, I'm not saying all) have power while the Albanians don't. Hmmmmm... So, what's your next question?
Bell the cat
Thanks BeeGeeJesus, always good to someone who really does know what they are talking about. Bato take note? Oh and Bato, can I also ask have you ever actually been in Kosovo or did you just learn about it through Serbian propaganda but were too afraid to go somewhere that dangerous?
Keydeck
One of the most polite bitch-slappings I've read.
PetroNYC
If people can't play nice, they shouldn't play at all. Who cares who did what when and how? The point is to move forward, so stop crying over spilled milk, learn to share, and get over the fact that you no longer can control Kosovo. There are more important things in life to worry about - like finding a hot man to marry me! :-)
Keydeck
Petro, things are not always that simple. You say, "Who cares who did what when and how?". I suspect that a lot of people in that region care quite a great deal. The same applies for anyone from a region which has experienced large scale turmoil throughout the years.
PetroNYC
Keydeck, no doubt they do care, it's just a shame that people need to hold onto the past and let the past dictate how their lives are lived in the present and future. I think life is as simple as you make it. People have a tendency to complicate matters more than they need to be. Getting beyond the point of past hatreds is always a point of contention, an obstacle. BUT if people can learn how to forgive and get on with their lives, we'd all be in a better world right now. I think that's why Jesus was so adamant about forgiving those who "sin" against you and loving your enemy. Not to get religious, but from a philosophical standpoint, it's logical and reasonable to see the point he was trying to make.
Keydeck
Ireland had 800 years of oppression. Murder, rape, torture, etc and people get annoyed because we still go on about it. New York had an afternoon of it a few years back and yez have blown up half the world.

Shameless paraphrasing of comedian's work
PetroNYC
Hey! Just because I'm an American from New York doesn't mean I support my government's actions! There are plenty who believe it was another Pearl Harbor and our gov't let the the whole damn thing happen just to throw us into a war.
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