Protest against Kosovo independence

yeah, ok... that was more of a TT "after hours" fun time... back to the topic at hand.

The fact that it will turn violent is precisely why I want to go. Too bad I'll be out of town, I'm really dissapointed actually!

My recommendation would be to go to the cafe on the top floor of the Hugendubel, get a coffee, and watch some ultranationalists party like its 1939.

in 1914 it was important. in 2008? Im not so sure. Your post is biased from a strict Serbian nationalist point of view and no more valid than any other. The Balkans have been a pain in the ass for centuries and the only relief is that all concerned have, through generations of corruption and incompetence, managed to manouvre themselves into a position of international irrelevance. You all wanna burn down your own capital cities? Off you go then. Im sure western Europe is shaking in its boots at having the Serbian ambassadors recalled.


Just like the Serbs "one-sidedly" revolted againt the Ottoman Empire between 1804 and 1815, to whom the providence belonged by law?? Like many modern States, "Serbia" as an entity isnt anywhere near 500 years old. In fact, between the wars and up till 1995 Serbia was just a part of Yugoslavia and didnt exist at all, so forget the "500 years old" card.


You know, if the Serbs under Milsoevic and Mladic hadnt been so keen on ethnically cleansing parts of the former Yugoslavia of Muslims and Albanians then the currently existing Serbian minorities probably wouldnt have a problem.


Gosh, just like the Serbs forced others to flee elsewhere. Thats the problem with attempted genocide - Sometimes the worm turns.


Revolutions are like that. Ask a Serb. Oh, hang on...


Fair enough. That doesnt make you right, though and certainly doesnt make you a reliable reporter on "The Truth[tm]" of Kosovos independance.


He is. I like him. Millions think hes a loony.


Translated, this means "I searched the Web for days and only managed to come up with one single nine-year-old item that was even vaguely pro-Serbian and now you should all go and listen to it and ignore veryone else who is of a different opinion about the situation today". Right.


I am already.

You know, I know enough Serbs and Croats to have learned during the 90s that your geographical location in Europe strongly influenced your (media guided perception) of the Balkans. In the 90s, in the West, the Serbs were the bad guys, towards the east the Croats were the baddies. The fact remains however that everyone in that region each has so many atrocitoies to their name that there are no more good guys. Certainly the Serbs have screwed up so badly and so often that I really couldnt be bothered to find even two cents worth of sympathy for whatever shit theyre exposed to now.

Do let us know when you are finished killing each other, wont you?

andy M

POG, I can get where your post is coming from. BUT.
The region is being fought over now as it has been fought over by outsiders for a LONG time and VERY intensively in living memory.
This is just another chapter in the imperialist struggle to control the region but its now in the guise of the EU, not the K&K.
Russia has gone from tsarist dictatorship throough the Revolution, Stalinism and back to oligarchy but it's interests are still the same as in 1900.

MT, your usual Marxist-Leninist framework for analyzing geopolitics doesn't make sense, and especially not in the Balkans. There is nowhere near enough economic, or even political value, there for opposing blocs to sink serious resources into fighting over the region, either physically or metaphorically. It's not even that important to Russia or China. The original intervention in the 1990s was to halt genocide, and since Serbia won't capture its war criminals and rein in its bloodthirsty nationalism, the problems remain.

Thankyou for this line, just brilliant!

Well, apart from the bloody Prince ear worm i've now got.

1990s intervention was not "original", it was the lastest then in a long chain of intervention as is support for Kosovo independence now.
I quite clearly said that there is little mineral wealth to ge gained now.
Not so much trade routes either , though that has played a role in the past.

The key issue here is, the "honour" and "tradition" and all that baggage.

That applies to Russian and Serbian as well as Western imperialim.

Indeed, why would a brainwashed person from China not agree with everything his government says or does? You can't be happy with everything- are you angry that the Iron Rice Bowl is something primarily in the past?


No, I think a CIA agent would have already tried to get you to spy on Cuba or something like that.


In your view, of course the Taiiwanese elections havemn't been a "benefit" because they are a Vorbild for the PRC. I think if James Soong had won in 2000 you would have thought otherwise.


Those village elections definitely aren't comparable to the presidential and legislative elections in Taiwan and the US.


I spent some of my childhood in Singapore, but sorry, I don't have a way to ask all 1.4 billion in the PRC for your opinions. Not that the PRC government would allow any sort of unfettered poll, a.k.a, an election.


Something about you should respect a difference of opinion rather than brainwashing and no one knows the US like US citizens? Sound familiar?


Those foreign currency reserves your government holds (something like 1.4 trillion US dollars) aren't being used to help the children of Africa. They could easily be used to fund national elections in China, which I doubt the Communist Party would win.


If Mao, the most prolific mass murder in history, is your benchmark one can't help but "do better".

Now that you have admitted there is no significant economic interest in the Balkans for outsiders, how does "honor" and "tradition" apply to the NATO role in the Balkans, particularly that of the US?

You might also note: China is blocking progress in stopping the killing in Darfur, due to their oil interests... so please don't talk about someone not pro-actively "helping Africa" when your country could easily stop actively hurting it.

Good point, TFL, I guess he also doesn't want to acknowledge the money given to African countries by the US to help fight AIDS.

C'mon, US helping Africa?
Yeah, yeah they sent them a couple of condoms for a few bucks, big deal. At least the locals had someting to carry water in.

I haven't "admitted" it, I have said from the start that this ie post 2000 intervention in the Balkans isn't primarily about economic interests.
You will also note that although I have made passing reference to Washington's interests I have focussed promarily on the western imperialism coming from Western Europe.

It's like a crusade. western European imperialist interests never tolerated that after 1918, Yugoslavia was established and did their utmost to destroy it.
The historical process is not always logical, in this case it has been spiteful.
Of course a similar, just opposite, perspective came from Russia.

You will notice that opposing flag waving western imperialism doesn't exclude opposing flag waving Russian imperialsm.
This like so many others, isn't a binary issue.

But to come back to the question of why specificly the USA is doing it:

*) Create a new client state.
*) Play trumps against a Russia whose influence in Europe they are scared of.
*) Have a "liberty" propoganda tool to use around the world, but also for domestic consumption.

*) Have a handy military foothold in the Balkans (Bondsteel is not being dismantled any time soon, is it?)

MT, anyone can toss something out, substantiating it is another story. Yugoslavia was created as part of the Versailles Treaty and wasn't exactly a Soviet stooge during the Cold War. Absent bloodthirsty Serb nationalism, Western Europe may not even have had any need to recognize new states created out of the former Yugoslavia.

As for US-Russian rivalry, Central Asia and the Middle East are far more important geopolitically and thus far more fertile ground for rivalry. Even Russia doesn't expend too much political capital on this alleged rivalry in the Balkans, so that you tell something. Russia' threat to Europe lies in the extent of the latter's energy dependence on the former, and to a much lesser extent, the former's nuclear arsenal. Neither has anything to do with the Balkans.

If I am looking for client states, I would look for ones that actually have some geopolitical value- the Balkans has none from the US perspective, and hardly any from the Western European point of view.

MT your view of the Balkans is stale. circa 1914. Time to update your propaganda data. BTW, MT, if you were asked for advice, exactly which policies would you urge the US and Western Europe to pursue in the Balkans?

Kay- with facilities in Greece, Italy, and Turkey, the US doesn't need one in less-well-situated Kosovo.

ALL of the state/nations in the region played the nationalist card and bloodthirtsy were not just the Serbs but others, including the Kosovans.
Why did Germany in the guise of the Saumagen rush to recognise an independent Croatia?
Flex the muscles of a newly unified Germany for one, but also as a HUGE proportion of Coratias foreign trade was with Germany, 75% iirc.

We are not in 1914 any more but in the spirit of Versailles: Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose.

Monkstown, you are completely unaware of the US's motives and reasons for involvement in this conflict. You seem to characterize all actions, even when they are a positive, in a cynical light... saying simply we support Kosovo in order to create "liberty propaganda". Since you so blatantly missed the obvious rational, let me clarify:

The US, being the sole remaining superpower, is naturally involved in many world conflicts. Obviously, as with any conflict, things are not black and white. Our involvement can often turn out to be incorrect, immoral, and unwanted. That is a problem that comes with the territory. However, the problem with this, is for a narrative to form, a country needs to see itself in a good light.

That's where the problem comes in. WWII was pretty much the last starkly contrasted "good guy versus bad" war, where we could quite clearly look back upon ourselves as "the good guys". Everything since then has been, lets say, a little messy.

Currently however, there is a troubling but growing trend, our videogames have exhausted every possible plot and nuance of this conflict. Additionally, current generation Playstation 3 hardware is so powerful that primative 40's era weaponry is no longer challenging for simulation. We need a modern conflict, with modern weaponry that still affords us the ability to see ourselves in the simple light of "being the good guys" against patently evil genocidal maniacs.

Luckily, this trend of increasing computing power, and quickly diminishing plot supplies was identified early 90's... thus we randomly chose an emerging nationalist group, and bombed them under the pre-tense of liberating whoever it is they were trying to kill.

We can now look back on ourselves and our involvement in a wholly positive light, and glorify it in movies for the next 50-100 years. As an additional bonus, as eastern Europe's economy improves and these countries emerge more into the international community, future American business and tourist travelers will be able to remind their colleagues and hosts that "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking Serbian right now"

MT, you whitewash the Milosevic role, beginning in 1987, which put other, less numerous ethnic groups on the defensive. What, were they supposed to let the Serbs slaughter and oppress them?

I'd have to refresh my reading on the situation in Yugoslavia in the laste 1980s; but sure Milosovic played a nationalist card to try and get round the crises
(sp) that were ocurring. Other leader did so too in Croatia etc.

Declining to joint in the "Yay Yay USA!" or "Deutscland Ãœber Alles" chanting with Kosovan nationalists doesn't mean lining up with Milosovic.

I'm glad though you think that the still at large Serbian butchers should be on trial at The Hague.
Changed your position then that the court can't offer a fair trial?

MT, I see that, as usual, you are only able to criticize and to graft the same mindless mass-produced analysis you always spout- the Marxist-Leninist yarn about either "imperialism" or "class warfare". depending on the context. You have no solutions or original analysis of your own, as usual.

As for The Hague, the optimal approach would be for Serbia to fully prosecute and appropriately punish its war criminals. Serbia, however, has shown that it is unable and unwilling to do that- it lacks the institutions and the civil society to do so, thus The Hague (for all Balkan war criminals) is a necessity. As for bias and procedural concerns, there are some, but nothing like what would exist back in Serbia (for the benefit of Serb defendants).

So in your opinion Croatia's institutions and civil society are wanting, too?

I think that there is a fair ammount of truth in Marxist analysis and I think the Russian Revolution was a "good thing".
But "marxist-leninist" is a rather redundant term. It's a supposed ideology that was used as a cover by Stalinism.
I'm certainly NOT a Stalinist, have differences with Soviet imperialism as was and today am dubious about the idea of a "vanguard" party.

Does imperialism exist? Yes.
Is there an ongoing struggle between the classes as related to the means of production? Yes.


Oh it's so cute when you wriggle!

Although I can understand that you don't want to be associated with Stalin, your ideology as expressed is clearly a Marxist-Leninist one.

One other thing, MT, I don't know if it is laziness or ideological rigidity (probably the later) but you have a very difficult time seeing nuances and even blatant differences between two contrasting situations.

Hi??? you are producing again the rumors!

WHat has China to do with Dafur???

if your country so strong enough, just send your troops to Sudan to kill the bad people there. Why do u need help from China???

China has tried out best to help. But, we are no leaders of other countries. We know we can't teach others how to react. We are not so silly as your country always tring to teach and change others, but never succeed...

China is the first country to send out peaceful troop to help UN to keep the security in Dafur.
But we can't attack Sudan government to liberate Dafur!!! NOt like XXX NATO to do the same in Kolsovo.
Why should China follow the stupid war?

Our Liberation Army is only for liberation of Chinese lands. We should not interfere so much other countries. We know clearly, we can't!

Are you still here edi?

Go and peddle your bloody Chinese propoganda elsewhere would you?

At least until you have a basic command of the English language and can constructively make an argument to support your viewpoint.

smartedi. you are the definition of brainwashing... since you are outside of your countries lovely internet restrictions, try reading:


Now please, go start your own thread if you want... perhaps I'll do it for you later.

I agree with thefirelane

Smartedi you might want to do some extra reading considering Jingjing and Chacha aren't around

I have no interests to answer u one by one.

Are u living in modern Society??? Do u know what is happening in nowadays China? What u talked about Iron Rice Bowl or Mao seem to be 50 years agao. I have no interests to tell u these are not very good and nowadays, these don't exist.

Why should we use 1.4 Trillion Dollars for other countries before we haven't helped all the poor people inside China?

We have no money for such a US wasting election. And even we make an election, many people would be made used of some political groups to vote for them BECAUSE the average education level in China is not very perfect. Some of the people would be easily made use of some groups, just like the same in Taiwan's election. DPP paid for a lot of people to vote for them. HOw could I imagine that in China???

Singapore is no good example for election. Don't fool others. Mr. Lee's family has controled Singapore for so many years and even our great Chairmann Mao has not succeeded for this. Mao's family is no more country leaders any more and his wife was sentenced to prison in the contrary.

back to the topic, if some election system, even not works well in US, how could US forced Kosolvo or Serbian to use it with wars' threatening???

You better save your energy to criticize your loving Uncle Sam! Do u have 2 different standard to talk about China and US?

China is refusing support UN???

If this UN is controlled by US, why should we always support the US's policies?

Does UN == US???

I think US always wants this, but... I think it is just a dream.

haha,
if I have something different, then it is your called propoganda...

you have so silly logic.

don't booster for your perfect english.
It is just a stupid way to do this.

I guess my English might not be very perfect. But I could also learn from you. But unfortunated, you have just taught me here some dirty words.
Therefore, I don't think your English much better than me.

I am trying to accept some Propoganda from you, or trying to understand it. But unfortunately, what u said, sounds rubbish to Chinese people.

You are right that the balkans arent important. Sadly, for an area that is so damned unimportant, a whole lot of blood has been spilled over it, in it and about it. Greece Italy and Turkey are all currently a little bit Hostile to US military intervention at least at a civil level. Using those bases makes it worse and raises the political price of operation from them. The Kosovars are not hostile. That could be a factor, although I admit it is a little thin.

As for the Balkans, if you will allow I would recommend, that Europe either completely stay the hell out or get in there and help broker a settlement and pronto. Russia is like a Bear. Big, mean, a little uncivilized and best left to sleep. Europe has serious security issues vis a vis Russian Energy, just like you said. Since the country is already recognized. (That was really fast) then the US, doesn't have to do anything unless the Serbs go all Medieval. But the thing is and I am not partial to either side, I was under the impression that the last settlement, provided that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia. I'm not kicking the Kosovars, but I thought that was part of the deal.

MT, how then do you explain the EU's failure to engage in the Bosnian conflict? Or the fact that Germany tried to block the Kosovo intervention and it was the UK who actually spearheaded it with rteluctant US backing? It just doesn't fit your absurd ideas that Europe was somehow empire building on its doorstep when really it was very ineffectively and undecidedly trying to diminish an already unstable situation right on its doorstep.

You are a clever man so I find this frankly ridiculous doctrinaire marxist line to be very out of charactre.

Mods, please do something about smartedi

the rest of you just stop feeding him

BtC, it would be much more effective if you clicked the Report button. There's no guarantee the mods will read your post here. Or perhaps you've done both.

Or just put him/her/it on ignore.

tried putting him on ignore buit it doesn't work

but, yes, I did report too

Sorry guys, I don't know if this has been covered yet or not, I could only get to the 7th or 8th page before my mind exploded.

The term “genocide� was coined in 1944 by Raphael Lempkin, a Polish legal scholar who escaped the Holocaust and dedicated his life to creating a legal definition of genocide. He drew from the Armenian Case when constructing his definition of genocide as well as the
Holocaust which was unfolding in front of him. On December 9, 1948, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention was approved after the Holocaustand in part due to the efforts of Lempkin. The definition of genocide set forth in this
convention is still widely accepted today and in part is built on the historical facts of the Armenian Genocide.

I cannot believe the amount of ignorance mixed with intelligence on this page.
I will be there protesting the protest if anyone is interested in joining.

Are you kiddin'??? When there's footie on the telly at 3pm tomorrow?

Here it is:

Heh, UN loonies. That counts the Aborigines' lost generation as genocide by the Aussies.

oh... You want to do this, just because I don't follow some of your silly ideas and absurd rumors ?

Or just because I don't speak as dirty English words as someone of here does?

or Because I have some different opinion from you?

This is what Conservative means. And you set a bad example of your favourite DEMOCRACY unfortunately, how could you persuade others to adopt ur democracy if even you yourself are so horrible to different ideas? Your favourite words are ridiculous, how do u prove u are 100% correct???

Thanks, Kay!

Oh man, I just realized Starkbierfest is tomorrow too... hmm, beer or politics?

I know they were working in a mob rules mentality, and you can throw logic right out the window, but did anyone else find it hard to sympathize with the Serbs' protests last night when, in addition to torching the US embassy, they also torched the Croatian embassy? Was that just for good old times' sake? Good thing there wasn't a Kosovo embassy yet.

Yes, that's what I was thinking, too. I doubt PM Rudd used the word in his Apology motion last week.

I am going to admit here and now that I cannot be bothered to read the whole thread. But what I have seen so far is pretty staggering.

It appears that most people expressing views have swallowed the NATO propaganda hook, line and sinker, with wild claims about massacres, genocide, ethnic cleansing, blah blah blah. I even saw one post which made the claim that Serbs massacred Albanians wholesale and then attempted to illustrate this with a picture of one of the mass graves at Srebenica, which quite frankly boggles the mind. That is either naked ignorance or rank dishonesty, and whoever did it should be ashamed either at not knowing what they are talking about when making such bold claims or at stooping to such levels.

What happened in the Bosnian wars was despicable. It should not be conflated with what happened in Kosovo in 1999, because with regard to that region, at that time, the Western media were simply telling porkies.

I understand that the two embassies are practically next to each other (not that it excuses anything). I wonder whether they'd have "visited" it if it had been miles away.

@XabiAlonso

So do you believe Kosovo should be allowed to be independent, if not... why?

They mobbed the Turkish, British, and Croatian embassies, though it seems security was better there...

Now it seems the UN has tear gassed protestors in Mitrovica in northern Kosovo...

@XA: Yup, you certainly didn't read the whole thread.