Protest against Kosovo independence

Bato, as this thread has shown, outside of Serbia, there is general incomprehension about the meaning of Kosovo for Serbs. Because for most people, history is ... history. So perhaps it is time to revise this founding myth, and why is it indissolubly linked to the soil? Also bear in mind that you probably grew up in a time where this very ancient Kosovo myth was misused by ultra-nationalists and proclaimed an existential question after "just having been there" in the collective consciousness in modern Jugoslavia, as Bell the cat pointed out.

If you had based your argument merely on international law, you would have a point, since there is no right to secession (it is in conflict with the sovereignty and territorial integrity of existing states), only to self-determination of a people. Nonetheless, if a people has the necessary control of power and administrative institutions and can hope for sufficient international recognition, declaring a sovereign state unilaterally can be done. In the case of Kosovo and , there are "irreconcilable differences" and traumas, which lead to this move – which most European states are not happy about, because a lot of open questions remain. Perhaps being more flexible in negotations of the Ahtisaari plan could have brought about a different solution.

BTW, UN Security Council Resolution 1244 doesn't exclude an independent Kosovo. It says for instance:

No double entendre in the original version, alas. It means no more than "I'll be there".

See what I did there Conq ?

Yes and no there Rainy Days.
I think some people have problems comprehending what it means to serbs.
I think a fair number of people (in places like London, Berlin and Washington) know EXACTLY what it means and are revelling giving Serbia and Serbians the "Millwall" treatment.
ie yes we just fucking hate you and no, we don't care,

MT, how many Serbs not currently resident in Kosovo and not currently being protected by KFOR want to move to Kosovo? I think your sympathy for those who still dream of a Greater Serbia is misplaced. Perhaps you were hibernating during the 1990s, but those of us who saw the the destruction wrought by the Serbs know better than to naively see them as romantic victims.

There is a consistent thread in your posting, MT, absolving those who you see as underdogs from feeling the consequences of their actions, no matter how heinous those actions may be. Given what they did as a nation in the 1990s, Serbia has gotten off easily. I don't think the Kosovar Albanians should be expected to trust the Serbs after the latter's repression and attempts at genocide. You should be ashamed of yourself for minimizing the well-documented Serb war crimes, the planners and perpetrators of which are primarily still at large.

I wonder if MT also supports Jewish settlements in Palestine?

I'd like to hear an answer to that question from MT as well, OG.

You should be ashamed of yourself for your consistent lying and smearing!

I condemn the violence that various ruling classes have instigated the population in the former Yugoslavia.
Including genocide by the Serbian government troops and irregulars.
Those responsible at large should be on trial in The Hague, alongside others charged with war crimes.

Hi, there, Are U OK?

i just want to persuade you not to make day dream.

Taiwan and Tibet would never be independent or could never be independent. This is the reality.
China has 56 different folks, we could not allow every folk to get independent. Tibet is just one of these 56 folks. Nothing special.

I am against Kosovo to get independent. It is really bad to do this. Tiny country doesn't make any sense. The most important for Kosove now is to rebuild the Electrical Factory and make better life for the normal people there. Stop any wars. Getting independent, could not solve these at the moment.

Please take care of yourself and stop fooling yourself.

About Dafur, I don't know much about the background, and have no comments.

Outrageous falsehood report to the moderators.

Well, MT, glad to see that you have woken up somewhat. Drop what you know to false accusations of lying and smearing and review your own comments (with your eyes wide open, that is).

Your desire to report comments to moderators is very selective- you pointedly refused to report Timmeh's hateful, virulently anti-Muslim comments, for one.

The Kosolve people have driven the Serbian people out of Kosove, is that also so called genocide from your opinion?

I hate any wars. But Kosove War is a fault of NATO.

I wish all the wars could be solved by discussion.

Genocide is organised mass killing of a people.
Serbia has been involved in attempted genocide in the last 20 years, what Kosovo has been involved in is probably "only" ethnic cleansing of the Serbs.

no matter genocide or ethnic cleansing are neither good.

We could not say who has more rights.

The most important is not to get independent. but to rebuild the whole land there and stop any wars there.

The people should stop bad things, and sit together to discuss about the future.

We should not focus on the past fault. Anyway it was happened, but it is just the past. Hilter has also done something similiar in the past. But when we talk about Germany, nobody focus only on him.

ethnic cleansing = genocide, MT, just in fluffy acceptable words.

It makes no sense to say who is worse in the past.

just look more on the future.

If Kosolve is independent, then all the minority regions in Europe would do similiar. This is not a good thing.

I can't understand UK to agree with this, because even in UK, Scotland wants to get independent and is not allowed there.
The country boarder should not just divided by the race.

The UK can't stop Scotland becoming independent. In fact it is probably inevitable.

Your grammar isn't up to much!

I was actually saying that I though on scales of "badness", the attempts at genocide by the Serbian army / irregulars were worse than the ethnic cleansing of Serbs by the UCK. I am trying to understand the situation(s) rather than singing of the geo-political songsheet of one set of imperialist powers or the other.

gotchya.

I'm sorry, but that is nearly the dumbest thing I've read all day.

Taiwan could never be independent? Are there daily food and money shipments coming in from mainland China? In what way is Taiwan unable to operate as a sovereign nation exactly?

Trust me, as a US Northerner... be very careful when you fight of a seceding group, you may come to regret your opposition later.

I'll also add: As much shit as the US gets for being "the den of all that is evil"... its really eye opening to see people posting from these other countries that are very much actively involved in brainwashing their citizenry. Say what you want about the US, but based on post like the one quoted, and Bato's original... things are a lot worse other places, and don't forget that.

I just heard that the US Embassy in Belgrade was broken into by a Serb mob and set on fire.

Happy now, MT?

Are you sure that 20 years of Milosevic and the apalling suppression of the Kossovan Albanians didn't play a part?


In the 40s and 50s the WHOLE world focused on Hitler and the need for Germany to change, even the Germans


Scotland is already in effect a separate country. The Act of Union merely united the parliaments. And now with devolution and an SNP government in power, full independence looks ever more likely. The difference is that in the UK, for all the failings in our democratic systems, we do take notice of the democratic wishes of our sub populations when clearly expressed. I don't be lieve Scotland will be independent this decade if I am completely honest, but the trajectory is in that direction and I expect a peaceful and amicable split (much like the Czech Slovak split) some time after that.

I look forward to an independent Euskal Herria as the result of competely peaceful and amicable negotiations.

hmm, I don't really think the Spanish are ready to be so generous to the Basques and in any case the Scots have not waged a terrorist war against England so the comparison is redundant.

Yeah, I skimmed very briefly through the first 40 or so posts and was just about to give up when I got to this bit:


Now I've read the whole of the thread gripping the edge of my seat, but still waiting for the answer to this: Just what does happen when a chainsaw condom breaks???

what the hell do you think Gordon Brown is up to?

we'll just have to get married

Nothing. No-one has ever had an unwanted (or wanted) pregnancy, an STD or even HIV/AIDS from chainsaw sex.

Never.

In fact, under those criteria, it is the ultimate safe-sex.

Although it could hurt a bit.

trying desperately not to be irrelevant. As an MP with a Scottish constituency he has a lot to lose from an independent Scotland. Hence his gleeful embrace of the Britishness myth.

whilst at the same time waging financial/political war against England

No comparison was made or implied, and perhaps you need to reassess a bit. ETA, a fringe group, has engaged in terrorism, including against other Basques. There will be a referendum on this topic later this year, and Zapatero has made comments favorable to the cause of Basque independence. Nor have all Basques had in fact "waged a war against Spain", as you imply.

BTW, the Basques who live in Spain are also "Spanish". The national identity of Spain also often isn't particularly strong once you get away from Castile. I think the Catalans, among others, would be inclined to be "generous".

I would have said the Englsh have in general rather benefited from the last ten years that Brown has been controlling the domestic front.

pull the one. it's got Bells on it.

I bow to your greater knowledge on the matter, though I find it outrageous that the Spanish government would reward a terrorist war.

Ah! But there's some that like it this way.

What is so special about Kosovo to make it independent country?
Seriously.

- Is there a nation without a home land living there? (No - Albania is just next to it)
- Do they speak a unique language? (No - Albanian)
- Did they have own (at least unofficial) flag or anthem a week ago? (No)
- Were they fighting for independence on international arena (No - well, ok, kind of - the idea came from US just few months ago).

Tibet, Palestine, Chechnya - Kosovo somehow does not fit to the list.

The truth is NATO forces will need to stay there forever to secure peace.

I am not supporting Serbia - they made a mess in the region - but the whole concept of artificialy created independent country does not convince me.

And in the end - what about a Serbian minority left now in Kosovo - will we create another mini country for them?
I am glad to be a EU citizen.

And trust me, if American dare to interfere with Taiwan Strait, we have nuclear weapons ready. No one will survive on this planet.

Do you fucking understand anything about Chinese history? Someone took away the best treasures of our 5000 year civilization to that island and now they want to go independent? Keep dreaming.

As for brainwashing, who isn't? Wasn't American brainwashed to invade Iraq and kill thousands Iraq civilians in the name of democracy and freedom? Come on, don't be silly, you just want cheap gasoline.

Although getting into a war on Taiwan's behalf would be crazier than lunacy, doesn't it also defeat the purpose of using nukes if you destroy the entire world, including yourselves?


So, if they return what was taken would you reconsider?
At any rate, I think they like the status quo just fine- after a declaration of independence they would find it a lot harder to do business in the PRC.


Seems to me that if "cheap oil" were really the goal, lifting the US embargo on Iran would have been more than sufficient.

Bato here again.

All nonsense aside I wish to make a conclusion.

As expected, as it always happens, threads like this are pointless. Mainly because people think they are funny and get off topic by talking nonsense (chainsaw condoms) or what happens most of all is people simply talk the most ridiculous things, the most unbelievable garbage. It seems we have so many historians here, so many incredibly informed youths that think they really do understand the situation on the Balkans and all that has happened in the past. My god, they know the details better than some of those who were there smelling the burning fires from the war zones.

So after some pointless (stupid) and simply factually wrong things I have heard so far I conclude that this thread and all the replies are completely unproductive. No good can be done, so it is useless.

Of course now some will say I can't bear to hear them speak because they posses the truth and I am ashamed. And this thought would be stupid. I have no time to read and answer all the responses and attacks put up to me. There is so much misinformation in these 7 pages that it is becoming dangerous for anyone to read them. It is amazing how some of the people in this thread really believe what they are talking about.

-I will end it like this. If you wish death and destruction to any nation or group of people, Serbs, Albanians whoever and if you are so full of hate especially for someone you have never truly known you are a sorry human being. I truly feel sorry for you but at the same time let’s still try not to cross each others paths.

-Any feelings of ultra strong nationalism can turn dangerous if the proper elements are present. I do not support it although needles to say it exists everywhere in every nation and during a time of crisis where people of one nation feel they need to join together and set their small differences aside to respond against the common threat, it is only natural that these feelings can emerge. This is only human and it is in all of us. Hence the burning of the US embassy in Belgrade. The Serbs feel US has been the key instigator in regenerating instability. Kosovo is not an only example of this by any means.

-For all that used words like genocide, ethnic cleansing and such, please keep in mind that this were words coined by your presidents with much lack of factually data to support this. (If you look up the definition of terrorism you will realize that every war/conflict America has fought excluding the civil war fits perfectly to its definition- almost like it was made for her.) Of course people were killed and needles suffering was caused-ON BOTH SIDES equally. That is the nature of war. We called the last few wars "brother killing". No one wants to kill or go through this hell but bad politics and foreign influences fuelled by personal interests create such horrific situations. Most former Yugoslavs today agree Tito made all these wars inevitable for all of the yugos.
But when you get educated through such things as the modern western media and stupid movies like "behind enemy lines" and such you are being fed nothing else but propaganda by your governments to maintain public support for their actions. This is logical I can not be disputed it happens in every single place on this earth. We have learned different histories and during wars like these we will be exposed to different views depending on which side we watch the telly.

This is a bad place to get educated so I wish not to continue debating with people present here that have shown this to be their school. We have literally nothing to talk about.

But there are also people here that seem objectively interested in the opposite view so the best thing to do is listen to the other side. See why Kosovo matters so much perhaps you can understand the complexity of the situation. And perhaps you will realize that this issue in fact will affect your life more than you think.

Of course the best school would be to simply go down to the Balkans and see it all for yourself. See what the hell is happening and how differently CNN (just an example) portrays it. But this too is logical. The media is a business run by businessmen.

So I feel nothing can be gained from further discussion here. In any case these things don't change a damn thing but prove some people to be utter fools. I will therefore retire from the conversation and end by saying the following:

Who ever you are and what ever your position on this and other issue, simply put to be a better human being you absolutely must expose yourself to both sides since there are always more than just one. If you don't, your ignorance and bigotry pollute this earth we all share and you are nothing than a hindernis to all including your self.

I will repeat once more, although I wish not to make this conclusion about my self. I hate no one. No one. I do however feel a great injustice has been done by dirty politics and selfish intensions by some of the strongest bullying countries today. I have no strong negative feelings about any particular nationality/group of people because I believe these things are not necessarily done by people themselves but by their bad political leaders who are them selves run and controlled by the Rockefellers and the Regal Hines' of the world.

So do try and be as objective and educated as possible when generating opinions because people will undoubtedly suffer more. What ever your position, we should all pray for peace. War is the greatest failing of human reasoning as JFK once put it. No one wants it on the Balkans, we had enough. But something like this doesn’t pass easily without the sounds of bullets. Kosovo is a holy place and you can be sure as long as there are Serbs it will not be anything but Serbian. It has been so from the beginning and some things simply don’t change.
Pray for peace and all the best to all of you here in Munich.

Including locally organized killing of Serbs. Which is why this leadership does not deserve to get a country. Independence for Kosovo? Yes. Under the current rule? Might as well bring back Milosevic and his gang. Bato here could be the minister of propaganda.

Remarkable that after several very trenchant points have been made to which you could have mounted a defence - you chose to dismiss it all and flounce off.

In fact you haven't once in this thread presented any viable verifiable arguments at all.

Which underlines the completely paucity of reason in your entire position.

Positively the least convincing OP and follow up I have ever seen on the interweb. Pathetic.

Hello Bato. All nonsense aside, I'll give you a straight answer. The way I see it a monumentous event was the catalyst for the disaster. Now you could say that the line-drawing on maps by people who should have kept well away from cartography, let alone military politics after the First World War may have set the field for the ensuing disaster, but the collapse of the Soviet Union and the death of Tito led some to go off the deep end... and by more than just a little. Factions and forces could see possibilities, but what started out for The Croats as a drive for their own independence got very, very messy. Now I've worked with Serbians, I've known Bosnians and I've done business in Slovenia, and from ground level it looked very much like most ordinary people in ALL areas of the former Yugoslavia didn't want all the shit that eventually happened. But you know something? When one side lobs a shell into a crowded area of women or a sniper peels the brains out of some innocent kid, relations and friends have a grievance and join the grudge militias and start their own little genocide programs and before you know it the whole thing has snowballed so far that the fan can't even stand upright for the weight of shit clinging to it. Then of course you get the big boys coming in when they've finally worked out it ain't going to settle easily. So there's us sitting here, albeit in our safe European homes, still wondering what the fuck it was all about in the first place, why so many people died, and what percentage of those survivors carry the guilt for what happened (what may still happen yet). I'll grant you this though, The Serbs are obviously not alone in their guilt and complicity. There's nasty bastards on all sides... including the Kosovans.

The most intelligent answer I have seen on this thread has come from gurux: Tibet, Palestine, Chechnya - Kosovo somehow does not fit to the list.


Oh for fuck's sake! It's land. Holy, my arse!

That would not be the case, in fact the Spanish government would be rewarding those who work through the democratic process and negotiate peacefully, not rewarding ETA.

You could have just saved us all the time and written that one sentence. Or you could have been even shorter and just written: I am a typical religious nut who forgets that human beings are more important than pieces of dirt and who "owns" it.

I was genuinely interested in hearing your "side", and you offered nothing but conspiracy theories and unattainable barriers meant only to convince yourself that people who disagree with you only do so because they don't know the "truth"

You are lying to yourself, and for that you should be ashamed.

Since you didn't offer anything, I did my own research:

It was war, no doubt about it. However, Serbs did oppress and kill the Albanians, and did so wholesale against men, women, and children.. Kosovo isn't a "holy place" and if that's the best reason you can come up with why you should be allowed to dominate an entire ethnicity of people, then they are quite right to tell you to "fuck off"

[img]http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/07/12/mn_srebrenica105.jpg[/img]

Hi, I am sorry, you are wrong!

you love the word "brainwashing" so much! but be careful, that could make you make some ridiculous comments since it is totally wrong or just a rumor!

Which technology could be used for brainwashing, even US could not do this. If that, u would not feel so unwelcomed all over the world, just wash the people who hate US and make them love you. But I have to tell u, I don't hate US, but some of your policy are really something worse than shits!

Taiwan is nevertheless still under Republic of China, it is part of China. Could never be independent.

I know your, US americans like making such independent events in the world, but unfortunately, you would never succeed in China.

I think, Mr. Bush know how to make friends with Chinese but not to be enemies.

So, If you like independent, just divide your US to be 50 small countries.
That sounds more reasonable.

Have fun!

Hey smartedi:

Answer this: Do the people of Taiwan want to be independent from China? If they do, why will the government not let them?

You think it is "part of China" how exactly? Does china collect taxes there? Do Chinese laws apply there? Does the Chinese government have any influence there (police, army) at all?

How about this... not brainwashed? Walk right down to Tiananmen square and hand out literature promoting an independent Taiwan... I dare you.

NO!

never.

They could return anything which you could see. But they could never return their birth or life to Chinese. They are Taiwanese, but always Chinese.

if you develope a technology to wash their blood and Gene
you could maybe try to let them independent.

But but,

no one in Mainland would say yes!

I guess, Mr. Bush would not sacrifice american troops for the idiots in Taiwan who try to brush their gene or change the history.

Don't worry, Chinese would not use Nuclear Weapons for attack purpose like your XXX USA.

But even without Nuclear, we have enough weapons to keep USA out of Taiwan Strait.

Jesus, a Chinese person defending the Japanese in world war II and seeing the US as the bad guys. I'm glad to see ignorance isn't purely a US thing.

Hey smartedi, go ask your grandparents their opinion of the Japanese in WWII and how they feel about the nukes.

That's the problem with brainwashed people, they'll unfortunately never see how brainwashed they are.

This thread is attracting some of the finest "native English speakers" around.

I guess the most Taiwan people there don't want to get independent. If they do, they have to ask the whole China if it is allowed instead of other irrelevant countries.


This is a funny question. I suggest you to pay for some lessons of Taiwan situation. YOu have to know well about what is happening and the society structure of Taiwan.

Taiwan is a name of province. The country in Taiwan, is REPUBLIC OF CHINA. Of course they pay tax to China Government and obey the Constitution of Republic of China. And it is clearly written that Taiwan is one province of China. Nothing special. Please don't raise such silly questions next time before you have some basic knowledges.


Your favourite words are "brainwashed" and "tiananmen"

Are your brain full of these ? so, you are brainwashed, please go to your doctor as soon as possible.

If normal Chinese people have some ideas different from you, then Chinese are brainwashed... How ridiculous is your theory! Promoting an independent Taiwan, if you want to be kicked by all the Chinese in Beijing, please do this! you would get a very good lesson! Before police comes, nobody would send u to hospital. Take care!

You dare yourself!