Kosovo MPs proclaim independence from Serbia

This I celebrate:
In Kosovo, it's 'Independence Eve'

They are focusing on this on CNN at the moment, will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

Funny, with your evolved sense of justice and prudence about war crimes, you'd be less than happy when an organization responsible for them gets a country. Or do you have that sense and prudence only when there are Jewses involved, even if they haven't committed anything more than fighting battles?

I celebrate with you. Here's to the ethnic cleansers of Kosovo, PESs new heroes.

I served in Kosovo and Albania during the NATO bombing of the Serbs in 1999 and saw firsthand the refugee camps and aftermath of the Serb attempted genocide of Kosovar Albanians. There is no way Kosovo can remain under Serb sovereignty- a two-state solution is the only real answer.

I am in favor of an independent state of Kosova, but I am against their current leader Hasim Thaci. He used to be general of the armed forces (UCK) during the war,so I don't believe Thaci is the right one to achieve reconciliation with the serbian minority. They still have a long way to go to become a democratic and stable country.

So if Kosovo is so thuper-duper poor how will they be footing the bill for all the trappings of statehood?

That's what I'm wondering. At 80% unemployment, they're going to have a hard time of it.

I think CNN said it was 50% unemployment, not 80. Not that it really matters. No one really works anyway. As for how they will foot the bill, the Balkan Mafia would be my guess. Oh, and NATO and the EU of course.

hmm, while I agree that after the Serbian actions in Kosovo, there is no way it could have remained part of Serbia, I still have a sense of anxiety that this will all end badly. There would be a solution if the whole region were absorbed into the EU. Certainly that is what Croatia, Macedonia and Montenegro are aiming for and until recently Serbia was too. But the ominous statements from Belgrade and Moscow in the last week have put paid to that. I fear the worst.

It appears that CNN is carrying the official announcement live now.

parliament still has to vote on it so it's not yet done and dusted.

What is going to happen to the sebians living in Kosovo?
Will they suffer the same fate as ethnic Russians in the Baltic States?

i shouldn't think it'll be any worse for them than it was for the albanians under serbian rule.

2 wrongs and making a right though innit.

The long planned western European / Catholic / Hapsburg / Germanic / EU plan to break up the region into mini compliant statelets and humiliate the Serbs has succeeded. It's taken them 90 years since 1918 but they've done it. Hey-ho.

reap what you sow though innit.

the official declaration has just this minute been made.

you've been reading too much Pravda

the EU did not force Slobodan Milosevic to react to the fall of European communism by embracing far right nationalism. Nor did it encourage Slovenia, Croatia et al to sue for independence. And it certainly did not encourage the ethnic cleansing that ensured the breakup of Yugoslavia.

If anything, the mess in the Balkans is a result of Europe's FAILURE to get a grip on the situation.

The entire Kosovan population of Munich, all twenty of them, are currently driving up and down Leopoldstraße.

Lots of flag waving and horn tootling going on.

The region that's really going to see the effect the most is Mitrovica, north of the Ibar River as that is where most of the Serbs are. I don't think the enclaves that are scattered throughout Kosovo will really feel too much of a difference because they have, for the most part, become part of the K-Albanian institutions. Mitrovica is, for all intents and purposes, all Serb.

Serbia has sworn that it will not resort to violence and with Tadic wanting Serbia to be part of the EU, I think Serbia will ultimately just have to accept Kosovo's independence. A bit simplified, sure, but that's the upshot. Serbia would be stupid to try anything with all the international military forces in Kosovo. Russia might be a force to be reckonned with, though, so I'll be very curious to see how this all plays out.

I see this as a very dangerous precedent, and I'm not even referring to Chechnya, Abkhazia or any other regions that Russia is concerned about. There are plenty of candidates for secession / independence / whatever right on our doorstep. What's to stop Corsica or the Basque Country (or Scotland, for that matter) from seceding? I'd like to know just how the US/EU would react to any declarations of independence on their part.

Kosovo's secession is not quite the end of the Yugoslav carve-up, either. If I'm not mistaken, Republika Srpska has wanted to detach itself from the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina ever since the country was cobbled together. So do they now get the US/EU blessing to go it alone, too?

nothing. and why shouldn't they if that is what they want?

Not unless they start "ethnically cleansing" the Croats and Muslims there. The argument that the US et al have made about the Kosovar Albanians would not hold true for places like the RS and the others you've mentioned. The US has long since argued that Serbia has lost the right to govern the Kosovar Albanians after the attrocities they committed in the late 90s. Kosovo has not been ruled by Serbia since 99. At least not directly. It's been a protectorate of the United Nations. The status quo was not an option. Going back to Serbia was not an option. Independence, while perhaps a dangerous precedent, was the only way to change. Though, I'm not entirely certain that I agree that declaring independence is really a precedent at all. Many countries have done so throughout history.

I'm not sure I follow. I asked "do they also get the blessing... to go it alone?". You don't seriously mean that they should "start 'ethnically cleansing' the Croats and Muslims there" to be granted independence?

You asked if they would have EU/US backing. I said they would not, unless they started ethnically cleansing.

It is actually 50% Serb with the Serbs living entirely on the North of the river and Albanians to the south


I don't think most Scots would give a hoot what the US thought about them becoming independent, something that is looking more and more likely. And the EU? There would have to be a few negotiations but I cannot really see Brussels standing in the way of it happening.

And as for it being a 'dangerous precedent', it is far from being the first secession in Europe in the last 100 years:

Ireland from the UK 1921
North Cyprus from Cyprus 1974
Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova all seceded from the Soviet Union 1991
Slovakia and the Czech Republic had a "Velvet Divorce" in 1993

And Flanders and Wallonia are teetering on the brink of a split that will end the experiment that was Belgium.

50% Serb where? Kosovo is 90% Albanian... Having been to Mitrovica myself, I'd say that once you cross the Ibar, you'll be hard pressed to find an Albanian...

that's what I said. The city of Mitrovica is truly divided with the Northern half predominantly Serbian and the southern half Albanian. The BBC puts the ethnic split at 50% for each.

Just clarifying as I wasn't sure what you meant. Still, I'd have to wonder about BBC's numbers. There are very few Albanians in north Mitro.

and very few Serbs in the south

Independence for the Basque Country, Scotland, and Corsica isn't as urgent a question as it was for Kosovo. In the former three, independence (if it were to come about) would be negotiated peacefully. Franco's repression and persecution of Basques is much less recent than the Serb attempt at genocide in Kosovo.

I agree in part, but having lived in Cyprus for 7 years, and seeing an undying (and historically deadly) animosity between the North (Turkish Cypriots) and South (Greek Cypriots), I agree with Robert Frost: Good fences make good neighbors.
As we speak Cyprus is deciding who will be their next president and the election is an issue of whether to unite the sorry Island.
BBC: Cypriot election 'neck-and-neck'

Shake and bake: BBC: Cypriot president ousted in poll

It is a shame western countries have once again trespassed against Serbia, and once again broken law and recoqnized this independence. It will prove to do nothing but stirr further conflicts and unreast on the Balkans. American dirty, bullying politics will through this illegal act spill more blood and cunningly deceive the public to blame Serbia for all that is expected to happen.

Since I expect to be ridiculed for this response I urge you to start educating yourselves about the mess on the balkans, and not through money hungry, one-sided major media. One place to start is to listen to Noam Chomsky talk about the unprovoked NATO bombing led by America on Serbia.

Who is interested in more info please feel free to ask. But if anyone is to repply and criticize you have a moral duty to educate your self first. People will die and this is why. Ignorance is the biggest sin.

Topic split: Why were lots of horns honking in Munich today? and Topics merged by admin

OK, me first. In your post you mention that creating an independent state in Kosovo is not a good idea because it breaks some law, and because it will lead to more bloodshed. Please explain what law is being broken, and why you think that, based on the recent history of the area, leaving Kosovo under Serbian control will reduce bloodshed in the area, or keep it at the level it's at without worsening it, as opposed to making it an independent country.

I'd like to point out, because I am educated on the Balkans, that the Americans are not the majority group in Kosovo. In fact, they rank about 4th or 5th in terms of numbers of troops present. France and Italy both have more soldiers in Kosovo than the US. Also, most of the EU and NATO nations have stood poised to support/recognize a secession and have readily voiced that. So, how exactly does American, dirty, bullying politics play into this? And how did the Americans/West break the law? Wasn't it Kosovo that declared independence? Seems you're the one that needs to be educated.

This BBC story sums up the arguments quite well: East-West divide over Kosovo move.

yes that BBC piece does cover it well and underlines why I have a rising sense of anxiety about this. It might have been better to work with rather than against Serbia over this. It would have taken longer and would have been inordinately more complicated but it would not have triggered what could be a major diplomatic breech between east and west.

Alas, they have been trying to find a diplomatic solution for many years now. Neither side was willing to concede on certain things. Serbia was willing to give Kosovo autonomy, but not full rights as citizens. People that Serbia wanted to control after they got their pee pee slapped for trying to irradicate them. I can understand that not being acceptable. More power to them, I say.

And the ethnic Serbs living in Kosovo?

But only one side is being blamed for the failure, right?

Because he cited good ole Noam (I always use linguists to justifiy my political positions, writing about generative grammer just makes you automatically the gospel), which means that everything wrong with the world is America's fault - get with reality!

Ok... stupid question time: Kosovo is mostly Albanian, and it also borders Albania. Is there a chance they will or want to join with that country? Is becoming independent merely a first step measure before joining Albania, or do they plan on remaining independent? There certainly were a lot of Albanian flags out yesterday (naturally, they didn't have the freshly minted Kosovo flag)

@Bato... I'm sorry, but your post sounds suspiciously familiar to the old line of thinking where everything in the world is viewed from an American-centric perspective... as if all other people in the world simply wait around and react to the US. I have quite a strong feeling that this movement between ethnic Albanians and Serbs is quite independent of how the US "feels" about it... they are two groups reacting to each other and would be doing so regardless of US actions.

i assume, that since Kosova is now a democracy that aspires to joining the EU and therefore has to respect human and minority rights, the ethnic Serbs will be a damned sight better off than the Kosovans were under Serb rule.

TFL, I noticed when I was in both Kosovo and Albania that the former is wealthier (relative term) than the latter, and that there was some tension between the two groups of ethnic Albanians. There are some Kosovars who did at that time dream of a Greater Albania, but they were in the minority.

Now here is an interesting turn of events for Global Harmonization.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/18...ence/index.html

Here is a short quote from the article.

Serbia takes Kosovo anger to U.N.

While favored by the West, Security Council members Russia and China have expressed outright opposition and "grave concern" over Kosovo's unilateral decision, warning of a possible return to conflict in the region.

"Our concern is for the safety of Serbs and other minorities in Kosovo," Moscow's U.N. ambassador, Vitaly Churkin said on Sunday.

"Our position is that this declaration should be disregarded by the international community," as well as by the head of the U.N. mission in Kosovo, Churkin added.

I have thought about that myself and have been told by Kosovar Albanians that, despite having cultural and linguistic similarities, Kosovar Albanians are not viewed by the Albanians as true Albanians. Albania doesn't want them.

As for the Serbs taking it to the UN, that's not at all unexpected. I don't think it will get them very far, though. Also, the Serbs have been leaving Kosovo in droves since the 18th century. If that place is such a cultural and religious mecca for them, why do they all want to leave? And trust me, this isn't a religious bunch. Jack Christians and Muslims, if you will. And the Serbs got their asses handed to them by the Turks in the battleground that they are trying so hard to hold onto. Just sayin, like.

As for the argument about what happens to the Serbs in Kosovo, I don't think they'll have too much trouble. For starters, there's a huge peacekeeping force there to help prevent any violent outbreaks. And you could make the same argument for minorities of any country that has ever declared independence. What about the Loyalists/British in America when America declared independence? What about the Protestants in Ireland? You can go on and on.

I'd be interested to know more, since you seem to speak with such authority on the matter.

Kay, he's correct, generally speaking.

It's not just Russia, China and Serbia that have a problem with Kosova's unilateral declaration. Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia all oppose it too.

When is TEXAS going to proclaim independence from USA? The majority of population is Spanish speaking and Mexicans.