For all the Mommies and Daddies out there...

OK, so my boyfriend and I were discussing buying a house together(the wedding is not far behind) and we started talking about how much money we won't have if we have a kid and one of us has to stop working to take care of it.

So, the question is: what are parents out there doing for childcare? I realize people are in a variety of situations. However, it will not be financially(or mentally) feasible to stay home totally and make no money while the kid is growing up. What are the options?

A friend in my office had so much trouble finding a day-care situation for her new baby that her mother-in-law is now taking care of him. She said no-one would take him until he's 10 months old.

I also heard that if you are covered under private insurance, you don't receive the monthly money from the government while you stay at home(what is that called anyway?).

And the last question is, if you do find someone to take your child during the day, how much does it cost per month.

My whole point is, although I know I could stay home for up to 3 years, I don't want to do that.

Anybody have some insight here?

why not stay the three years with the child? i know its a personal descision, but i know so many people who end up working just to pay the chidminder and have a lot of stress doing so.

as for mutterschutzt and your money for the first six months, sorry i can't remember the rules but i thought it had to do with wether or not you are self-employed etc.
finding a place for a child in town is a nightmare, it's also sadly easier if your a single parent.

as for finance work out how much money you would have after you've moved your tax about, the highest earner should go into steuerklasse 3 (he says thinking..) and you'll pay less tax as you've a child. you'll also get kindergeld from the staat.

Not working is not an option - especially in my field - I do not want to stay home with a kid for 3 years - 5 years. That's just crazy(for me). Even if it costs me a 1000€ a month for a day-care type situation, it is so worth it(when you take home more than that each month).

I think someone posted elsewhere about the money you do or don't get when you stay home.

What is kindergeld?

kindergeld is the money you recieve from the statt because you have a child. its called cild allowence in england or bairns beer money in scotland. its 250 euros a month tax free happy as you like. yes if you earn more than your giving out on child care do so as you wish. as i said its a personal descision, but dont forget children are a 24 hour job, they require your guidence, your love and alot of your time. if your not prepared to give that, then seriously think about it beforehand, as its a descision which you can undo without causing a shed load of hurt, and i do know of a ocuple of children who were packed of realy early in their lifes to a child minder (not a relation) and it did alter their behaviour. one is now having problems with discipline in school. one doesn't know wether or not mummy is mummy or childminder is mummy. kids in the first three years need a very strong and permanent mother figure, it's the natural way of things.

I'm trying to look at all the options - what would be ideal is for me to work from home and have someone who comes everyday to my house(when we have one) to watch the child and maybe do other stuff that takes so much time(laundry, cleaning, etc).

I know a lot of people who have packed their kids off pretty quickly and haven't had any problems at all. It's all about the parents, I think. The neighbors kids are needy, crying, whining all the time(how do I know this? I hear it daily) - and their mother stays home with them. She also looks like she'd like to get the f*ck out, but can't. I've worked really hard in my career, but I shouldn't have to make a choice between motherhood and a career - men don't, so why should I?

the problems with kids start later, that is the problem! im just giving you advice based on various things i know and have been told and could tell you but won't post, so we'll save them for later. if your nieghbour wnts to get the fuck out, then that is probably one of the courses of the problem and i think you are missing the point that kids whine and scream all the time even when they are happy. as i said they're demanding little buggers.

and do me one favour, don't give me the "men dont have to chose " wimmins lib crap. men dont have to chose because we are given no choice. i also have had to make career descisions based on the fact that i now have a family to feed keep warm new shoes. i no longer have the freedom to chuck in the towel and change countries jobs etc. WHERE DO YOU SEE A CHOICE FOR A MAN?

Ok, first of all, buying a house here will suck your bank account dry for the downpayment. 50k minimum with land lease and even more with buying land. Look to buy outside of the Munich boundaries as Munich can be a pain in the butt on the deal even if you do have all the financing set up. Happened to us.

With a kid, you will get full pay during the mutterschütz time. Then the parents have the option of staying home and receiving erziehungsgeld for three years. Or you can take more money per month and stay home shorter. You could stay home the first six months or so and then he could stay home the next six months or so.
We did that and I am so glad I did. Not many fathers get that chance. So there are options.

Register your kid at a kinderkrippe now! They are used to this as it is hard to find daycare. It will cost you at most around 300 per month in a city sponsored one and slightly more at a private one. They are great. Your kid will go to kindergarten soon after it turns three. That means you have about four years to arrange for an Au Pair.

All this stuff is good on the taxes.

If you need more info, we have a book over this (in German) and my wife could give you the details over the phone or in person.

you lucky bugger... i had a massive fight with my boss just to get him to realise that i had other responsibilities in life. as for applying early, the kindergartens around our way did not accept applications untill roughly ten months before entry date

Well I had almost the same problem as I came here in Germany. You will receive Kindergeld (child tax) and it is 154 € for first 2 or 3 kids. The 3rd or the 4th one gets more. You will get this money until he/she turns 18. Erziehungsgeld is something else and it depends on how much your husband earns. If he earns too much you won´t get anything. NOrmaly is this 304 € a month (I think so). I also think that you will get your 4 weeks before and 8 weeks after get paid. YOu are also entitelt to work up to 30 hrs. a week and get this money (it depends again on how much you hubby earns).

Childcare was not a huge problem for me. I got a private day care and I was paying for it only 203 bucks a month the rest was covered by the city (another 354€). You can´t apply for the "Kinderkrippeplatz" until you are (I think) in the 4th month of pregnancy. But there are always ways to find cheap and qualified stuff to take after your baby.

SO I hope I could help

Thanks EuroVol - very helpful. What is the name of this book?
Kinderkrippe? Is this like daycare? Or pre-school?

[/QUOTE]you will get full pay during the mutterschütz time[QUOTE]

How long is this Mutterschuetz time? 3 months? Full pay by my company, I'm assuming? Wouldn't it be great if they paid in full for 3 years!?

And what is erziehungsgeld? And how much is that?

The problem that we have at the moment is that we saw a gorgeous house that we want but is, I think, a little out of our price range (-we don't want to make a major lifestyle chance like other people have - they're so house-poor that they can't afford to go out to dinner once in awhile or on vacation or do anything) and, if a kid came into the picture, we want to make sure that from a money perspective, we wouldn't be kid-poor too!! We're lucky that we both have great jobs with good incomes and I realize many people don't have these kinds of choices. However, we've both worked really hard so that we can have the lifestyle that we have.

[/QUOTE]
However, we've both worked really hard so that we can have the lifestyle that we have.

[/quote]

are you sure you really want children? your lifestyle will change alot. and your furniture will get dirty, you can't sleep in at weekends and and and...

Oh, when I say "lifestyle change", I'm talking about being able to afford to go on vacation, keep 2 cars, travel, etc. How big a bummer would it be if with a house and a kid, I couldn't afford to travel back to the States to visit my family with him/her? I don't mean "lifestyle change" in the sense of no more sleeping late, your time is not your own, things are always dirty, etc. - that's something I will get used to - I do have 5 nieces and nephews so I'm not completely clueless - kids are exhausting and stressful. I just don't want the added stress of having no money to escape for a weekend.

And Natasa, thank you, that also helps.

If you think all that materialistic crap is not worth sacrificing for a kid, then I think you better wait a few years... (I mean this whole thread has made it pretty clear you have your own doubts anyway) Hell I dont have any of that shit, and if I did, I would trade it for a family in a flash.

Sorry but you come across as someone who wants to have a kid cos its "the thing to do", and are resentful of the fact that you might miss out on some of the luxuries in life.

People much poorer than you seem to have no troubles at all starting a family.

how are you going to escape the kids for a weekend? your going to be working the whole week and then you don want to spend time with the kiddies on the weekend. your right about alot of things but everybody is clueless about kids untill you've got your own and you can't give them back. you can actualy get away with one car here in munich, so that'll cut your costs down. and going on vacation takes an interesting turn when youe got children, so you may find yourself reducing the urge to do that more often.

@ ksa a bit harsh that, but i do agree with you for once...(oh no end of the world)
kids dont need holidays toys suvs money. they need you.

Will you two (Kza and especially Gideon) give it a rest, for goodness sake? Kitkat64 asked for information, not your reactionary effing opinions.
I have a friend who is a single mum, and she went away for a weekend the other week. And another friend who's a mum in a relationship who joined her. They both went without the kids - and why the hell not?
Although kitkat64 didn't actually say she wanted to go without the kids. She just mentioned having enough money to do so.

I dont think its harsh at all when theres going to be a whole new life, a baby child involved.

topsy, its not about weekends away from the kids, we all try to do that once in a while either together as parents or singular with the other one holding the fort, and as you have two kids yourself you can tell me loads about the commitment needed. and are my views reactionary??? no, kit asked for advice. maybe the advice is are you ready for this? that is also advice. if she just wanted a list buy a book. if you need advice ask for all opinions, you can't give a kid back with a reciept and tell the hospital it didn't fit. and there are way to many "unwanted" kids in this world, and a lot of them, sadly, have rich parents.

I, too am amazed at how harsh some of the replies are here. It is perfectly normal to wonder pre-pregnancy or in early pregnancy, if you are doing the right thing, if the timing is right, if all the sacrifice is worth it. I had all those doubts early on too, but of course for most of us the child comes along we fall in love and we make the necessary adjustments.
There are many ways of being a good mother. My son has also been in daycare from an early age and I think he has only benefited from this. Added to this, he has a satisfied, well-balanced, happy (if sometimes tired) mother.
I think it is unfair to accuse someone of not being ready to be a mother etc. Considering the sacrifice, downsizing, or life-style change is a responsible thing to do not a selfish thing.

My best understanding of having children is that nobody is prepared to have kids, no matter how prepared they are.

Mutterschütz is six months after delivery and anytime prior to delivery that is doctor ordered for you to stay home.

The book is called erziehungs something or other. You can borrow ours. PM for more details.

I would strongly recommend against house/marriage/child all in one wack! Seriously, any one of those is stress enough.

The questions on here are legit although perhaps not as tacktful as could be.
I even asked the same question on the thread about where to buy a dog. These are life changing things and not to be taken lightly. Planning the three biggest things in ones life all at one time really needs to be looked at three times. Two of them, OK, but not all three.

The housing market for buying is now. The rates are low and the costs of apartments are coming down so it is a buyers market or at least somewhat better by Munich standards.

Get married, buy a house, move in and have lots of practice making babies as that is the first to go for awhile after the baby arrives. You are just tooooo damned tired.

After about a year in the new house, you will be about ready to add to the mess and stress.

And as previously posted, some handle it better than others, but no one is truly prepared for the life changing event of their first baby. We are ready for the second, but we have no time, house-poor and too tired to practice!

Ouch! I have to say that I'm really offended by some of the posts above and thank you to others for defending me.

I was only asking for information regarding the topics, not for advice about what kind of personal commitment I can make to a child. I have often been told that I would make wonderful mother. I come from a family that didn't have money, but we did have a lot of love. I saw first hand how stressful it is when money is tight, very tight - my parents still didn't have a lot of time for us because my parents worked lots of hours to make extra money to support us.

I'm just trying to do the responsible thing here - unlike many people who say ' first, ask questions later'(when it's too late). I just don't want any surprises. And, I think that going away for a weekend without kids is a very important and necessary thing for parents to do. And no, I don't think it's selfish to do so. And since when is owning a house and driving two cars materialistic? I'm American - that's normal!!

Thank you to the people who gave me the answers to the questions I asked.

Don't be offended. You know the ol' American saying that he who barks the loudest is probably chasing his own tale!

That is tale, not tail for those of you who don't get the subtlety of American humor.

you shouldn't be offended. you also made some strange comments and what people have said here, is what has been said to me before ohhh a long time ago... it's great that your planning ahead, but as showem said, you are never prepared, it will still hit you like a large truck. i actualy had to sit down when i saw the first ultrasound picture, wobbly knees from the thought of the massive responsibility for the rest of your life. and it is a serious responsibility. i made the mistake of putting my job first for the first two years, and i missed out big time but i was lucky enough too realise that my duty as a father was greater than rent paid - food on the table. it's an honour to be a parent, but its hard because the little buggers are so uncompromising, believe it or not its easier to stay in the office and be a boss. that's one of the reasons why so many men run away from their families, at work your something at home you get told to change the nappy etc, thts hard on some male egos, and caused my and many other fathers to do a runner. at the end of the day, as i said in my first post, it's a personal descision, but be aware that you can't clone yourself and therefore no matter what you do, something somewhere will be compromised.
good luck

Hi,
being a working mom isn't easy. Being a SAHM isn't easy. Especially as both parties are usually feeling guilty and will therefore defend their own choice rigorously (and more often than not by telling the other that they're choice is clearly the wrong one). Anyway, that's how I see it and to me it's pretty stupid.

Mutterschutz is 6 weeks before and 8 weeks after due date where the gesetzliche Krankenkasse will pay your wages. Don't ask me how it works with private insurance.
Kindergeld is those 153EUR that you'll get no matter how much you earn, to be elegible for Erziehungsgeld you'll have to earn less than 30k and work less than 30 hours/week (?). Erzeihungsged will be 300EUR per month.

Most Krippen (creche) take kids from one year on. Anyway if you prefer to have somebody coming to your house, you'll have to pay app. 7-9 EUR per hour. Childcare can be done on a freiberufliche basis, which means that you won't have to pay social security etc... (in contrast to someone who comes to clean, you'll have to make a regular contract with social security etc).

From my point of view it's better for the child if the babysitter comes to your place anyway (makes them feel secure even if mommy is away).

And be prepared to be always defending yourself as a working mum. This can be quite tiring.

Good luck,
katrina

One huge GENAU to Gideon there! I am still reeling from the event (the birth of my child) almost one year on!

I didn't know I had a bad temper till I became a father!

I got fat during the pregnancy and the birth of my child. Basically I drank too much of that wonderful Weiss beer! It helped a little to ease some of the stress of adjusting to the new responsibility.

So 10 months after the birth (two months ago) I decided to get fit and run in the forest near the office after work. This I did in the light evenings after work. It would take up 1.5 hours of my evening time. Then my wife said that the little one was missing Dadda! So I moved the run to the midday spot. Then the colleagues gave me funny looks for being out so long, so I now run just 30 mins plus 10 mins to and from on the bike. This is a compromise between work and home life that you just have to make.

I also hate getting up early on Saturday mornings. I miss those lie ins. But when the little one is crawling all over your face you just gotta move!

Most of the first six months of a baby's life you are absolutely exhausted. Then it eases up a little then you go through Teeth, which is what we have just been through, the last being Tooth IV. Until later...

The first sign that your baby is on the way goes thorugh you like no other thrill on earth!

Also the labour if you are present as most males are now, is also awesome!

jeremy , buy a baby jogger, put the wee one in and go for a run, they love it, epecialy when it gets a bit bumpy. plus if your wife runs (like mine) then you can do a wonderful family jog and dicuss things.

Yep, buy a baby jogger - you will be amazed(so I've heard). My brother-in-law was training for the Boston Marathon and every training run he took my nephew with him(he turned 1 year old just before the marathon). When he actually had to run the marathon he couldn't believe how easy it was becaue he didn't have to push the baby - so there's great health benefits.

I just know myself and I know that I will go crazy staying home with a baby full-time. I may not have made it clear that in the very first post, my boyfriend and I are looking to buy a house soon(in the next year) and we want to know, realistically, what are the costs of having a child and how much will that impact the money spent on a house. I was never asking whether or not people think I should have a baby or work right after having a baby or stay home or whatever. Those decisions are for later - we're just trying to sort out the possibilities, which, I think is a very responsible thing to do as we're about to take a big step together(the first of many, I'm sure). I have no desire to 1) buy a house, 2) get married and 3) have a kid - all at the same time. I want to enjoy each separately.

well if your planning that far ahead and can wait three or four years you could use our baby jogger

Yeah, I'm a planner - I don't like (financial) surprises - surprise trips to Paris, etc - that's OK.

I'll keep it in mind!
And get out there with that baby-jogger!!!

"Ouch! I have to say that I'm really offended by some of the posts above and thank you to others for defending me. "

I think if people want specific info on a chat forum, you need to just post the specific questions, and leave out all the personal stuff. You will get comments like they gave you. I had to bite my fingers even.

I think planning ahead is a great thing, but wow, you are a real planner! If your boyfriend reads this and doesn't run, he is a keeper. Just to buy a house could be a chat forum topic, and a major undertaking, then another whole topic on gettting married(that is a real project and stress too), then another whole topic on having a baby. Good luck!

Thanks! He can't run - I've sucked him in already - we've been together for 5 years now(it's been me who wanted to run!) - so he's been very patient with me with the commitment thing.

So, we'll see - each thing will be one step at a time - probably starting with the house(on the immediate horizon) - all the other things, in due time.

Here are the minimums in "netto euros":

Kid-1500

House-2500

Kid and house-3000

Husband-You don't make enough, because whatever is left over we will blow it on booze and sports!

Eurovol - where did you learn how to do math?

He's already blowing in on booze and sports(seems like it's new skis, new golf clubs, new bikes every year - ah, but I'm guilty of the same thing!).

One thing is for sure - he/she will be an athletic little kid!

I learnt my "shuns" from Jethro Bodine.

Addish-shun, Subtrak-shun, Multaplakay-shun and Devish-shun.

You cost a 1000, kid costs 500, house costs 1500-anything less is TIGHT!

seems like it's new skis, new golf clubs, new bikes every year - ah, but I'm guilty of the same thing!.

you'll find you stop doing that. because snowplowing with a four year old does not require this seasons model.

kitkat64, i'm glad you started this thread. it is a common theme w/bf and i, although we have avoided it for nearly 3 months.
it had an affect on the type of apt. we chose to move in together. his argument each time was, "when you have a baby, you cannot work and i have to pay all the rent", then i said, "then i will have to go back to work and put the kid in daycare" and he says "why work just to pay for daycare. that is stupid". it goes on and on so we stopped talking about it. so i said i don't want to have children, so he no longer needs to worry about paying all the rent.

it's good to know that there are daycares out there. i won't mind staying home a year, but i think longer than that would be a killer to my career.

although you all probably think im a macho bugger, i always think the one who owns the most money should work, if thats the woman then so be it, and the guy stays at home. its important for the child to have one parent there, its also good for the family, so the logical conclusion is if the mother is earning good bucks then she should bgger off into the office and miss the whole fun of watching the kids grow up. i would uggest you look at every option, including him staying at home, maybe his career isn't so important to him or he could freelance better than you. it is a good idea though to look for an apartment which you can afford on one wage. unless your under the poverty line, you will seriously reduce your options later if you are reliant on both earning. dont forget it stops being fun and a career when you are forced to do it!

yeah, my bf's argument is he makes more money, hence he should work. i say, let him stay home 6 months, it'll be tight, but he should experience it.
but he's german and practical. i think we disucssed that in the dating thread.

So did my parents Gideon. That's why, way back in 1976, my Dad stayed home for a year and looked after me and my sister.

my wife told me i had to keep on working as i earnt more!
he'll be pissed off and jealous about it when you ring him in the office and say all the new things that are happening, first smile, first steps, first words. dont forget your a team though and everybody HAS to work at it together...