Pro-München - a far right political party

Because with saying that fascism is a partcuarly German problem - it isn't - sehr "völkische" concepts about citizenship, nationality and roles in civic society leave a VERY nasty taste in the mouth. The innocent but slightly frightened young blond boy on the Pro München poster is a classic example. You don't have to be Einstein to work out the message it is sending.

Such "völkische" concepts may have been a normal reflection of society into the 1960s or so.
But there has been migration to Germany and the migrants have stayed.
There are children and childrens children etc who come from a multi national or multi ethnic background.
Something like 20% of the population of Munich is non German. How long can such a section be excluded from civic society?

Sure countries like Britain and France have issues with their populations with migrant backgrounds but things are a longer way forward than in Germany.

A small example: A colleague of mine is from London but of Indian background.
I have had on a number of ocassions when he has been to Munich for meetings and stuff strange questions and comments from EDUCATED German colleagues who work in an international field:

Oh, he speaks good English.
Why do they have Indians working in such jobs in the UK ?
How come he has a British passport?

etc etc.

You are spot on. They do leave a nasty taste in mouth. I suspect for anyone who comes from a country where one can opt in or join up. We come from civic societies. Germany isn't a civic society. Not yet anyway. It's an ethnic society on the verge, so to speak. That's how I suspect they can feel the way they do. Maybe they change, maybe they don't. The deal they thought they were getting was "You come here and work and then you leave, or if you stay, stay out of the way and keep quiet." I personally believe in Fair representation, I believe in a Civic Society, back home it seems to work anyway. Although it must be said that even those vaunted mechanisms of integration seem particularly strained at the moment.

From a devil's advocate perspective though the 20% of population that isn't from here, don't seem particularly interested in becoming Germans. Germans as a group are hard to love. Especially from the outside. Goethe even hated them collectively. And they know it. Their cities and their infrastructure are not hard to love. They are quite easy to love. Hence Toytown. Snoop Dogg summed it up by saying "you don't love me, you just love my doggy style." If you'll allow such a puerile example, it could be said that the Germans are feeling quite the same way. They suspect that the foreign population isn't here because they want a piece of the German experience that includes them and all their baggage. With all the complications and sturm and drang, who would? They suspect (if my hunch is right) that the foreign populations want a piece of Germany. (Im not saying that the immigrants really do, or endorsing that view, this is all hypothetical.) This begs the question though, if that is the case, considering that the Germans know that they are a shrinking population, is it normal (not good just normal) that some (or alot) of them feel extremely defensive?

In the civic society model of other countries, the immigrants couldn't wait to join up. I don't see that here. Blame for that (if we want to go that far) can be assigned to both sides, the Germans and the immigrant population. The Germans wouldn't even think of letting them into the electorate until 2000. For years the Turks (as one example, the Greeks went home in far larger numbers) kept thinking they are going to go home, even thought there is increasingly not a "home to which they can return."

Rhyntyntyn you are not as brilliant as you think. I said the US has contributed, I didn't say they were responsible for the anti-western feelings in MUSLIM countries. I will ignore the stupid things you are saying (albeit with nice big words) - but don't misquote me.

I believe going to an entirely jus solis system of citizenship in Germany would be a mistake. A better solution would be to permit double citizenship for everyone in addition to the 2000 reform to the German citizenship laws, which will in the future, prevent most situations where long-term residents of Gemany without at least one German parent aren't German citizens from birth. That said, those who are eligible for German citizenship but have never applied for it should, and perhaps the German government should work something out with Turkey to resolve any issues surrounding German/Turkish dual citizenship and military service/right of inheritance in Turkey.

That's what you said Ruthie. No one is misquoting you. What does 'particularly' mean in your neck of the woods then? What am I saying that is so stupid? These aren't my personal feelings, (except for those that respect the right of self determination for all people, even those nasty Germans) They are observations on the state of affairs here in Germany. I think they are spot on. It seems that you believe that the Germans here have no rights at all. That's Hogwash.


I think so as well. But the path to reform is one I haven't thought about. Just analysing the situation is hard enough. Turks and Greeks for example who live here don't have to serve in the Military here or back home. Maybe they should change that. Should they apply for citizenship? I think so, but only if they want to opt in. I think integration could be a good thing, but everyone has to want it, and both sides have to commit.

Another party I discovered: http://www.auslaenderstopp.de/ Looks like the want to stop foreigners coming to Germany, well Bavaria especially. What are they going to do with the existing foreigners that are here? Gas 'em? I wrote to them here at the mail address on their website: info@auslaenderstopp.de and asked them what they would like to do with the existing foreigners that are already infecting their country? I eagerly await their answer. \n

And you know lots of people who hold this view personally, the people you call "Turks with German Citizenship"? I want to know who you heard this view from.

I still find it astounding that you can say
and don't try to shift your views on to
So if a person doesn't vote Green that means that they believe you are not German unless you have "German blood"? Krap of the highest order.
If things are as simply as you claim then Pro-München are in for a 93% increase in their vote.

Let's be frank- a certain number of ethnic Germans do not consider non-ethnic German, naturalized German citizens to be in their minds 100% German. How much that affects employment opportunities and housing applications I don't know, but let's not pretend some discrimination on this basis doesn't exist.

Okay Frank, I never claimed that people don't hold these views, but just because someone or even the majority holds these views doesn't make them right.

That's exactly what I wanted to say, jamie.

I guess it does make them right in the eyes of the majority. That's called democracy...

Can you explain exactly what does "having German blood" mean?

Germany was only united in the 1870s after the Austro-Prussian war. Does that mean "German blood" is only defined for people after the union , before the union, or from times of the Holy Roman Empire?
Please clarify...I'm sure the answer will be interesting...

I'm just confused whenever anyone talks about blood stratification because as communities we are all quite mixed!

In my personal opinion, considering the beliefs in question, I'd call that a poisoned or failing democracy.

There is a difference beteween a personally held view and an observation. Learn it. Come off the high horse. One picture of a poster with a cat on it, by a fringe political party is not indicative of what the the mass of the German people think about their identity or the identity of their naturalized citizens. Get real. And Neither is one roommate, girlfriend or acquaintance.

I lived for three and a half years with 14 Turks, a Dozen Greeks, 4 Albanians , 1 Tunisian named Slim, not Salim but Slim, a slew of Morrocans and More naturalized Bulgarians than you have ever met. And A couple of Armenians as well and in my entire time at that wohnheim, 2 Germans. It was the best time of my life The Turks I lived with had been treated so badly, that they would never consider themselves Germans. They live here because Turkey is worse, but they aren't Germans and don't want to be. Of the two of them who lived in my Apartment, one was a cititzen and thought of himself as a Turk the other had his citizenship revoked because he was carrying dual citizenship and he didn't want to reapply. Maybe he did later, It's been about three years. I would have, but he was right pissed.

We're not talking about my views Jaime. Grow up and learn to separate a discussion from the person discussing the subject. Up until 2000 it was the uncontested view of the German Government. Presumably made with the consent of their citizenry. It has been the view of the people in this country for hundreds of years. Just because I observe it, doesn't mean I agree with it. When I say Being German means having German Blood, I am talking about what the Germans think. Not what I think. It's easily observable in the History of German Immigration Law. Observable in the general populace and there is alot of academic information written about it. Im an observer here, just like you. Stop making this personal.

What is interesting and rather awful I might add, is that you and Ruthie don't hesitate to impose your views on an entire society, in which you live on the fringe and to which you don't belong. I find that kind of cultural arrogance far more Nazi like than a cat with a moustache. Maybe it's a consequence of your work. I don't know but you should reevaluate your rhetoric. Im not the pro munich party. Go beat on someone else.

Please don't take it personally but since you quote the German Blood law, I'd just like you to explain (not copy paste) it for all of us.

I could probably read the entire text for myself (and spend a lot of time doing it) but I'm not the one quoting it...nothing personal meant by that...I'm just trying to learn about this particular law.

Thanks in advance

...

..poisoned perhaps, but failed? If one does not like the end result of a democratic election you can't turn round and say it's failed. Failed you perhaps, but not the majority of the electorate.

@Bilko
You have a point there, maybe it isn't a failure of democracy but rather a failure of humanity considering the views in question.


Thanks for the advice, now what would one call this...
a personally held view or an observation? Where is it "easily observable in the History of German Immigration Law" as you articulated it that to be German is to have German blood?





Amazing. And by the way show me exactly where I made this personal?


I'd like this clarified please.
1. When did I impose my views on an entire society?
2. Did the Nazis "not belong" to German society? I would never claim to be an expert but I think that the NSDAP were in fact German.

Rhyntyntyn I am German (in other words, I have a German passport), was born in Germany to a German father (Bavarian/Austrian, if that helps you identify my bloodline any better) and live and work in Germany. Since when does that define me as living on the fringe of a society I don´t belong to?

Edit: and the problem with rhyntyntyn´s first post is that he says real Germans are only the ethnic Germans, and they should have the right to decide the fate of German citizens of non-German ethnic origin (and here I also ask Element 2082´s question -- please define German blood) -- this observation is false. All German citizens (not just ethnic citizens) have the right to vote and to help make laws. Thank God, not like rhyntyntyn seems to want it.

Tell us more ... please

Wow. A lot of ruffled feathers out there. Better start at the beginning. And clarify.
I am not or pro munich or whatever or anti ausländer.
I am an Ausländer.
I believe in Human Rights for all people.
[adminabuse]Except Jaime. Because he is a bastard and has no respect for the dead. [/adminabuse]
For the country where I have a say, I believe in integration. Firmly. I'm American. I'm not going to go push my beliefs on the Germans. It isn't my job.


Im not talking about blood stratification, I'm observing the effects of the Germans using it to define themselves. Check with a German. They seem to believe (as evidenced by their laws which I will not explain for you see below) that being descended from other Germans makes someone German. For example today if we take a Baltic German Family, caught in Russia in 1917, if they've lived in Russia for five Generations, and look Russian, speak Russian or German with a thick Baltic Accent, and they can prove that they were at one point Germans under a German government, or descended from even one German, they can apply for and get citizenship. Why? Because of that one relative, the Government considers them to be German, with a right of return. That didn't change with the 2000 Reform.
If you know the Austro-Prussian war then you should know Tacitus and Pliny the Elder. Germany as a Unified Country comes in 1870. Pliny wrote his German history around 47 AD. Tacitus around 100 AD. That's at least how long there have been other people calling the people who lived around here Germans. That's a hell of a lot longer than 1870, isn't it? The people who live here today could start anytime they want. As for whether it's pre Grunderzeit or Post I don't know. Once could assume Pre, because although there was no Germany in let's say 1848, or 1796 or even 1415 there were Germans and the existence in Europe of a People who fall into the category of German, goes back pretty much all the way to Roman Republic. But I don't know when they started counting though. Let's say just for the sake of argument that it would be the Grunderzeit, and it would be based on the laws of Prussia. Not Bayern which had far more liberal laws. German Law is based on Prussian law. So the last law they probably had the time to pass was probably the year the Great War started, 1914. So let's say 1914. It's arbitrary but it will do.


No thanks. Read the thread. If you can't get through it then read the Grundgesetz article 116. It explains enough.


"Being German means having German blood." is part of what I said. Here's the rest of the quote you ass, and I didn't articulate anything. If I had properly articulated the idea, then you would have understood and we wouldn't be here. Unless you are just looking for a fight. "Lastly there are no ethnic Germans of Arab background. Being German means having German blood. Their government judges it as an all or nothing category." If you have german Blood. (meaning descent, their phraseology not mine) then you can't be an ethnic Arab, because you are a fookin German. That's how they view it. According to government you can't be half German/Half turk. They don't measure German ethnicity that way. It's all or nothing. No dual citizenship. No other on the Line. They don't check ethnicity in the census. If you got the German Genes their government (not me) thinks you are a German. Unless you opt out. If you disagree explain to me how someone could be an ethnic German with an Arab background. Half and Half?, no dice, the Govt says if they want, then they are German. Even if we give your sun dried rhetoric a buy and just use the one little sliver you cut out, then it would read like this.
"[according to the the Germans] Being German means having German blood. [which is an archaic way of meaning descended from other Germans]" It's not me that thinks that. It"s them. From WWI Until 2000 their entire Naturalization system was based on the idea of "Were you a Prussian subject? Then you are in." None of this is my fault or my problem. I'm sorry as hell you got all worked up over this. It's not me. I'm just describing their laws.
And it's not a failure of Humanity. Germans are humans. What they do is Human. Whether it's good or bad. As for imposing your views. You come from a society that was up until their last immigration reform, a civic society. Where being a citizen made you a member of the society, and not just a citizen. To you a citizen is a member of the group. The group identity scheme you are using is civic. You can opt in by joining the group. Germans had used up until 2000 almost exclusively an ethnic or Völkische identity. You couldn't opt in by just joining or it was very very difficult. You have to be part German, physically, ethnically, of blood descent (their terms not mine.) You can become Irish by becoming a citizen, or American, or British. You are trying to impose the universality of the civic identity on the Germans, who are in the middle of deciding whether they want a civic or to remain an ethnic nation. I don't have an opinion as to which way they should go, but I think it's their decision. [adminabuse]And that has your and Ruthie's panties twisted in a great big knot. [/adminabuse]


Ruthie, I don't care if you're a Wittlesbach. [adminabuse]You're dumb as one, but not as endearing. [/adminabuse]And after this I don"t want to talk to you anymore. If your father wasn't German would you have a German passport? Would you speak German? Would you be German? No you wouldn't. Dumb. In the post to which you refer, I said the following "And Germany belongs to the Germans and the non-Germans who have citizenship. It's their country. Just like France belongs to the French. To whom should it belong then? You? The world? They can legislate anyone they want. Why is that alarming?" I also said "Lastly there are no ethnic Germans of Arab background. Being German means having German blood. Their government judges it as a all or nothing category. There are Turks with German Citizenship. They are citizens. No one especially themselves would call them Germans(<----this part implies that they have citizens rights ed.) German identity is ethnic. Not like French or American Identity which is civic."

I didn't say what you said I said. Again, the situation here is not as I want it. I don't care, I'm a guest. Zee Germans can do what they want. The people who decide are the citizens. Not the non citizens. The problem with my first post is your alarmist paranoia, piss poor reading comprehension and lack of education.


Ok. My Grandfather was a Prisoner of War in WWI in Görlitz. He was In Greek Army. Half of them had surrendered quite willingly to the Germans, because of Dynastic politics. Because of the way they ended in up in German custody, they were treated very well. He had fond memories and almost married a very nice Silesian woman. But he decided that Thessaly was calling. So he went home. Many greeks stayed there after WWI. They even had their own newspaper, in Greek. The Title was Nea Zoe. Meaning Our new Life. Sadly many of them settled on the eastern side of the River and after WWII most returned to Greece rather than stay in what became Poland. I have visited. Görlitz. It is nice. That qualifies as more, even if it's completely off topic. The Germans have been using Jus sanguinis for a long long time. The Brandenburg Prussia used it, the Saxons used it. From at least around 1648. It helped them keep track of who was who. The southern German states were more liberal. That's more and on topic.

... Many greeks stayed there after WWI ...

Approx. 200 of the 6.400 interneees of the 4th Greek Army Corps stayed in Görlitz

... after WWII most returned to Greece rather than stay in what became Poland ...

Approx. 15.000 Greek communist partisans/refugees settled in Zgorzelec after the end of the Greek civil war in 1949, of whom the majority returned to Greece during the 1980s

... The Germans have been using Jus sanguinis for a long long time. The Brandenburg Prussia used it, the Saxons used it. From at least around 1648. It helped them keep track of who was who. The southern German states were more liberal ...

Nonsense ...

200 was quite a large number, Greeks like the Sun, they are also know to like Greece, especially more than Poland. After WWII almost none of the former 4th army corps were there anymore. I don't care about Elam/Elas or their deluded refugees. I wasn't talking about them and it isn't germaine. The use of concepts like Jus Sanguinis and Jus Solis are as old as the Roman and Greek conceptions of Citizenship. In Brandenburg Prussia the concept of who had been a subject before 1657 was essential in deciding who would remain a subject, especially among the elites. It's one of the reasons you have Germans in Old old old Brandburger families who aren't Baltic germans yet have Polish or eastern names. Nonsense? Yes, but not from me... Wiki isn't the only source on History, try books.

The German Green party is represented in an array of state parliaments, the federal parliament.
They previously formed part of the federal government.
They are a coalition partner in the City of Munich, Germany's largest local authority.
They aren't a "fringe" party but part of Germany's establised five party system.

Ryhntyntyn, my historic knowledge is a bit sketchy, but for all I know the Holy Roman Empire, since the end of the Middle Ages with the addition of "of the German Nation" was anything but a clear-cut nation state as you seem to imagine (sorry, Wiki again, actually the German article is a bit better than the English):


I think the term "Germany" gained popularity with the rise of the idea nation states in Europe (Romanticism). An exemplary figure is Moritz Arndt, who on the one hand fought for democratic reform and German unification, on the other hand is anti-Napoleonic, anti-French and anti-semitic.

When the fragmented parts were unified in 1871, the question of nationality remained ambiguous. In parts of the Habsburg Monarchy, a concept of "volksdeutsch" developed, and on the territory of the Reich, there were other national minorities: Polish, Danish and French (Alsace-Lorraine). See article "Nation", Bundeszentrale f. polit. Bildung

The imperialist character of Bismarck Germany and then of course the Nazi German Reich didn't help in developing a non-problematic idea of nationality.

Today, there is certainly the legacy of recent German history, but there is also the knowledge of being and always having been a people in the heart of Europe. I find the theories about "German blood" bizarre. Makes me think of vampiric leanings.

EDIT: Prussia is a good example of multi-cultural traditions: Polish, French (Huguenots), Sorbians ...

rhyntyntyn if you don't want to talk to me any more, you will have to leave the forum, since I am not going anywhere. You may have a point that I am not very educated in world history. My degree is in literature. What you write is interesting and informative with lots of big words and "facts", but when you distill it down to its essence, it is bullshit. A basic rule of writing is that, if you write something that is not your own opinion, you should actually make the readers aware of that fact. You need to be aware of how you are coming across to your audience. To this member of the audience, you come across as a pompous ass who can't admit he made a mistake and goes on the offensive when cornered.

Of course. They are very successful, in Freiburg they have 20 Percent. But in the rest of the country it's around 5. When they did really well in Schroeder's governemnt they had between 8 and 10. Now they are heading back towards 5 to 7. I always though of 5 to 7 as fringe. It's 1 out of 20. I didn't know Germany was a five party system. Right now there are 8 parties-coalitions seated in the Bundesrat and 8 in the Bundestag, 6 if you dont separate the CDU CSU and you don't count 'other'. I guess then, it would depend on the definition of Fringe. But I understand what you are saying. It was a picture of a cat.


Thanks. Allow me to again state, I am not a "One Germany for the last 5000 years fanatic" I am not a proponent a crack pot nazi made up history and that I am not attacking multiculturalism or integration. I have also not said the HRE was a Nationstate. I didn't use the HRE as my starting point. I have not imagined anything pertaining to the Germanic identity. In fact I mentioned that there have been people called Germans since 47 AD and well before. Tactitus called them Germans, Pliny called them Germans. When mothers weren't using Hannibal to scare their kids, they were using the Germans. The Romans called the Whole area east of the Rhine Germania Magna. I didn't define them as a nation state. I didn't mix nation state i.e. Defined borders, sovereignty, etc, with the modern concept of Nation. A self idenitfying ethnic people or folk. And of course the Romans calling a bunch of thinly related tribes Germanic doesn't equal modern Germany. There has been migration upon migration upon assimilation. But the fact remains that the people in the area were considered Germanic for a lot earlier than just in 1870. Barbarossa wrote a letter (I dont have the book on me to quote it) where he tried to bluff Saladin out of Jerusalem by describing his Germans and how fierce they were. He lists each kingdom and it's attributes: red hair wild eyes etc etc. Saladin wrote back the equivalent of "so what, we have dromedaries." It commonly accepted in academic circles that the Germanic identity of the Eastern Frankish kingdom is firmly established in the middle of the 11th century. I think it's pretty well established that blood and descent mean the same thing to these folks. I don't think they ascribe actual characteristics to the blood anymore. I'm presuming its an expression meaning descent. It was a mistake to translate the German Expression, it's far too open to be being misinterpreted.

If you explained to a Prussian of the 18th century what modern mulitculturalism is, I don't think the Prussians would have agreed that they were multi culti. But I don't know. They are all dead you see. But I will agree that Prussian history is pretty unique.

Uh Huh. Project much? I'm not the one who was ignorantly using really nasty colonial terminology. You were. You didn't even know. And who got mad and started slinging the word stupid around when they were called on it? Not me, Ruthie. And when I've been cornered on this or any of the rest of this argument, you'll know, because I'll admit it. And when you personally corner me on any argument, hell will have frozen over. It's not so hard to read the things I posted, and figure out, that its a general argument about idenitity politics. And Im not german, it's not my identity. And if it wasn't obvious in the beginning then it should have been two or three posts in. And if you the audience weren't clear you could have asked rather than attack. But you were so busy being alarmed, and misquoting and running around the internet like chicken little, that you missed it. And now we have this shitty argument, where you look really fucking dumb and I look like an ass and we are no closer to discovering something new about the situation between the Germans and the Immigrant population as before. Great. Good job to both of us and to Jamie as well. Here's the esscence of what I said. Boiled down. Tell me if this is bullshit.

The Citizens of Germany have a problem. They have a large politically disenfranchised population of people who came here to work and stayed and reproduced while they were at it. Because of the way the majority of the citizens of this country Identify themselves and because of the way the large politically disenfranchised population identifies itself and is idenitfied by the citizens, they are not really integrating very well. Both groups are different culturally. I think the citizens of Germany will eventually have to make a decision on what to do about this situation. It is their right and responsibilty.

Corner that.

"Moslem" vs. "Muslim" -- I looked it up and did see that it "Moslem" can be considered rude by some. On the other hand, there is the Lebanese MOSLEM Association, the American MOSLEM Foundation (http://www.lma.org.au/, http://www.oz.net/~msarram/), both of which call themselves MOSLEM in a non-derogatory way -- and these are just the first two examples that popped up, there are many more. There is also no difference in the pronunciation of the two words. If I were talking about someone and said "He's muhzlum" -- my conversation partner would have to stop me and ask me how I would spell what I just said before deciding whether to get offended.

Rhyntyntyn, I went back and read the thread and realized I did get caught up in the context of it all. Bluedave was saying he is becoming more right-wing and thinks the Muslims need to be stopped. Then in your first post you said Bluedave is spot on. You probably meant just to support one point he made, but in introducing yourself to the thread that way, you immediately placed yourself on the anti-muslim side of the argument. What you just wrote makes sense. I personally, as an American and a German, don't think that getting rid of the Muslims and not accepting them into German society is a good solution.

I don't know how you can be considered politically disenfranchised by Germany if you live here your whole life, are the citizen of another country, are now an adult, but refuse to take on the citizenship of the country in which you reside despite being eligible for it. BTW, non-citizen males don't have to do national service in Germany, whereas (in theory) German citizen males do.

Noncitizens who want the benefits of German citizenship should obtain German citizenship.

Your little childish outbursts were so vile that they had to be removed by the moderators last night. I'm stepping away from this argument because you have dragged it down to the level of a bully and I want no part of it. But I am still waiting for a response to my PM. It was a very simple question but you seem unable to answer me.

I agree as well, but the general opinion here seems slanted towards the disenfranchised argument. Maybe the immigrants really dont want cititzenship because it would mean becoming German to them. I have met quie a few people whop weren't treated so well when they were here as guestworkers or students, and becoming a German wasn't an option.


They were, and I apologized both to the mods and to yourself. Take it like a man and stop whining about it. And if you step away it's because you had nothing of value to add and you have nothing to add and it would have been better had you never stepped into it. You'll get no answer from me to your PM. I am most definetly able to answer. I choose to be unwilling. Good Riddance.

You did not apologize to me, you tried to worm your way out of your own mess. You called me a "bastard who has no respect for the dead" lastnight and I wanted to know what you meant by that. You can't answer my PM as you haven't got a leg to stand on, prove me wrong by answering my PM, otherwise shut your mouth and step well away from me.

Bleed a little more why don't you? I admitted calling you a bastard was uncalled for and I said I was sorry. There's no mess here. Unless you're standing in it. As for your PM, I have nothing to prove to you. Didn't you say you were done?

Just one more thing...

Nice. Were you up all night getting that one ready? Can you think for your self? Or is all you have to offer sound bytes and internet macros? Pathetic.

If the effect of its campaigning on this forum is any indicator of its broader impact, I'd say Pro-München's advertising is having the desired effect. Well done.

I have to second that. While not the largest party in Germany, the Greens are a very influential party in urban Germany. In Munich they regularly have a solid 10% of the vote in local elections, and in many of the more "fashionable" downtown districts their share of the city council vote is closer to 25%. That is many times more than all of the "far right" and other crazy political parties combined and then some. In addition, they often form coalitions with the SPD and therefore are part of the ruling majority in the city councils of most big cities in Germany most of the time! Not exactly what I would call a "fringe" party either.

I can't really comment on the rest of this discussion as some of you seem to be getting caught up in some serious academic debating. Just wanted to contribute this bit.

Incidently the (NPD) Bürgerinitiative Ausländerstopp has been postering in 80469 München the last couple of days.
Seems quite a few late night revellers keep losing their footing, grabbing out for support and they keep falling down mind.

There are various reasons why immigrant eligible to apply for citizenship in Germany don't.
There is a kernel of truth in what you say "guestworkers" (stuck in the 60s there dear) get treated better when they are non Citizens.
Becasue on becoming citizens they still face racism and xenophobia as being "not really German".

This map, containing few surpises, shows which areas of Munich are especially supportive of which parties:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Hochburgen-Muenchen.gif

The map you are showing is very interesting. Note, however, that it shows the national election results, which are always closer to the mainstream political parties. In the upcoming local elections the Greens' share is even higher, and the CSU's share is utterly pathetic and the right-wing parties, who are gaining a lot of talk equity on this thread, will rightly turn out to be utterly meaningless.

Sure, that's the 2005 federal elections.
In the council elections, the Greens, SPD and possibly the Linkspartei will do slightly better.
But the trend and the geographical distribution of the parties best results will be broadly the same.

The 2 far right parties will pick up spme votes.
They MIGHT win a seat or two.

You can say right now where they will pick up votes:

The estates of NW Munich, Neuperlach and possibly parts of Giesing.
And a band of more genteel voters perhaps going for the ProM rather than the BIA ticket from Pasing to Harlaching via Laim, Westfriedhof and Sendling.
We can look in the paper in a couple of weeks.

Sorry, these aren't great quality photos, but it was 1am, and they'll be cleaned up and gone by the time I'm awake enough to be out tomorrow, when the light's better.

I also saw some with black spray paint over the kid´s face. Illegal vandalism, but I can´t help thinking "good for you" about whoever did it.

Me too! I stood there for about 10 mins just trying to get a decent picture of it... and then along comes a group of very drunk locals... yeah. they wanted to know what the I was taking pics of a dead poster for. my German just isn't up to explaing.

This morning I noticed some posters saying "kriminelle AUSLÄNDER RAUS!" with a picture of some threatening hoodlums. Don't know exactly what that was about (for which party) -- but also yucky to see.

It's utterly dreadful that someone would commit criminal damage on a political party's posters oder?

As this is the most active thread on elections, here's a story from the UK's Independent on the Linkspartei:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/g...ess-785610.html

Absolutely. What can a poor, inanimate object possibly have done? Last time I checked they don't even have the vote. A total waste of the effort that could have been better directed at the people (and I use the word advisedly) responsible for the generation of the poster. Ausländer Raus, my arse. I came here. I planted the flag. It's ours now. All the others can just piss off... to the UK. That includes YOU, da Sepp.

Indeed.
The Munich CSU claims to be on the way to becoming a genuine "Grossstadtpartei" under their supposedly young radical leadership of Schmidt.
I was at a meeting last week of various stadtrat candidates and the CSU guy said "oh we're trendy and groovy with 'Seppi" once too often:
In a breach of protocoll, a very big assertive "lady's lady" council candidate of my aquaintance bellowed across the stage with a bit of finger pointing.

"I am SICK of hearing this "Seppi" rubbish. DON'T try and come across as all cuddly and friendly.
With his inflmatory anti-migrant campaigning he is attacking Münchners to gain votes from the far right."

<massive audience applause>

Pro München and the BiA wouldn't even be on the ballot paper if "Seppi" hadn't decided to use the awful attack on the U-Bahn as a chance to campaign against migrants. The word was from inside the Rathaus is that it was only then that they started getting enough signatures.

What exactly is their political platform? Other than wanting to get rid of the foreigners, of course. That much is obvious even to me (which is saying something, since I'm damn near oblivious to almost everything going on around me most of the time)