Possible arson fire kills nine in Ludwigshafen

This on CNN:



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See pictures of the falling baby!

Poor baby I hope his parents survived.

CNN: Five children among carnival fire dead; others thrown to rescuers

Personally, I'm not sure I could toss a baby (let alone my own) out of a window to rescuers 4 stories (or any distance) below. I'd be requesting a ladder or something... anyone else?

It appears that all victims are Turkish, and the Turkish prime minister Erdogan wants to travel to Ludwigshafen in person to investigate.
Currently no indication that the Turkishness of the victims has anything to do with the fire, though.

I don't think at that stage they would have been too bothered about ladders

My God, to be faced with the choice of watching your child die in your arms, or hoping he or she would survive the fall... how horrifying. I think it would take amazing courage to act in such a situation.

Does anyone know what's up with the ladder trucks here in Germany - as in how high they go? I know (from having worked as a 911 dispatcher in the US) that the tallest in the US was 7 stories - though most cities only had ones that went up 5 stories. Is it possible that they just don't have the tall ones like this here?

Or maybe the fire took hold before the fire brigade got there? As I understand it, it wasn't the fire brigade that caught the kid.

In Turkish tv, they interviewed couple people from the same building and they were criticising the firemen for coming very late and praising police for trying to help. Also, an officer from turkish gov said that, they will send an investigation team as they suspect this is a Neo-Nazi attack.

According to German news reports, the fire spread very rapidly through the building. That's why people had to resort to throwing out children before the ladders had arrived. Of course Germany has appliances with long ladders. The speed with which the fire spread, and the fact that there was an attempt to fire the building in 2006, indicates possible arson. This possibility is being investigated with all seriousness. While it's correct that there are so far no indications that "Turkishness" played a role in the fire, you have to be one hell of an optimist to believe that "foreignness" is not the motive. I, for one, hope that this is not the case, but I'm not taking bets. I feel an impending and deep sadness approaching.

It's possible. Though I wonder: If somebody wanted to kill foreigners, wouldn't he boast about it afterwards (albeit anonymously)?

They did, god bless. Although the mother was admitted to hospital later on; but not for anything too serious.

Was it an Altbau tenement? They tend have that horrible design here of a central open shaft with winding staircase around the wall. Basically an enormous chimney flue which very effectively conveys heat and smoke to upper levels within seconds; nearly impossible to escape from inside.

It certainly looks like Altbau but I have no idea of the internal configuration.

I read somewhere that the central staircase was made of wood (not just the banisters but the stairs as well).

Yes, the central wooden staircase went up like tinder.
I think that sending in investigators from Turkey is a bit premature as the German investigation has hardly begun. Matter of fact, I think it's presumptious and not conducive towards a prosperous relationship. If the Turkish authorities are not satisfied with the results of the German investigation that's when they request that their own men have a go. Up to now the arson theory is based on one girl's statement. I do not say that she is wrong, but give the specialists time to verify the cause and the police time to follow up the clue before jumping to conclusions.

wood staircases are quite comon in Germany so not unusual in that way, and it was a Policeman that caught the baby

great catch - one would be a bit nervous waiting under that and watching it fall towards you

See for yourself here: Bilder des verheerenden Hausbrandes

It's not a wooden stairway burning per se that causes the immediate danger, but an open shaft up the middle of a stairwell on a medium-rise building, which greatly accelerates the stack effect and draft of hot air/smoke to the upper levels. In just seconds, the air can get too hot to escape. Think of a sauna Aufguß but completely debilitating. It's why modern buildings have stairwells without any (significant) open shaft up the middle. That design is a known death-trap.

Poor folks

I really agree, the thought of having to throw the baby send shivers down my spine. On the other hand there was a case in Australia, were 3 children died because they didn't dare to jump to their rescue. They would have survived if someone would have thrown them down.

I saw today in an update at:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/0...fire/index.html

Latest count was 60 injured - WOW. And

"The police officer caught the baby, Onur Celar, and he is now doing well. But the parents are still grieving because their 2-year-old son, Ilyas, was killed in the blaze. " And "Onur's father was also badly injured in the fire and remains hospitalized."

So, the uncle only tossed one baby down? (story from Uncle at http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/0...aved/index.html ) Interesting. Oh - and since they obviously (based on photos) had the ladder truck available - I wonder what took so long to get the truck on scene... and/or what the average response time in this area is (most places in the US have a 3-5 minute response time.) The details of this will be most interesting to see.

Also - according to the link above - they're saying that this same building had a molitov coctail thrown at it in 2006. Interesting - I mean who do you have to piss off to have your home not only the victim of the coctail but then this too (should it turn out to be arson)? Is it really all based on "racism" as the Turkish gov't says, or were they bad neighbors, or was it just an accident waiting to happen - too many people and a mis-tossed cigarette?

Guess we just wait and see...

Fire Investigation Continues

I remember seeing "7 minutes" response time in this case thrown around somewhere. Which isn't that bad.

Also, consider that the carnival parade was just a bit further down the street at that moment, which might have slowed them down somewhat still.

Why don't you share with us from where you got this "7 minutes response time"?

Gotta correct myself there, picked that number up somewhere.

BILD now says 2 minutes from call to first response team on site, 5 minutes until the second firefighting platoon (with the big ladder) arrived

On the ARD Morning programme this morning they also mentioned that the fire brigade made it to the scene within 2 minutes from the call being received.
I would trust them somewhat more than anything the Bild scum would come up with.

I read six minutes in the Süddeutsche Zeitung on Monday, seems that the fire engines were all gathered in a square somewhere near because of the Karneval celebrations.