Berlin public transport strike

I ride a bike and I rarely go anywhere outside of walking distance anyway unless I feel like it, but I speak for a lot of other people (friends that are students at F-U that have that business campus that is way the hell out there, elderly that have trouble getting around) and will say that this SUCKS.

I came into TXL and talked my way onto the ITB conference shuttle bus to the ICC Messe...

These strikes will bite the union and the transport companies in their own asses. People who used to be loyal customers of the public transportation will take notice of this and will use their services less, by switching to bicycle or car. The result is their own loss of income. Remember the 1988 WGA strike that went on for 22 weeks? After that, TV lost many of its audience members, and never got them back.

Errrm the way forward is communal transport.

good excuse to get on a bike

australis- mitfahrzentrale is for all of Germany. For your 9am flight I suggest Sleepinginairports.com so that you don't have to get up at the crack of dawn when not even sure if you can get all the way to the airport hassle free.

This might apply short term locally where there is a choice.
But not for a general unicersal monopoly good like public transport.

These transport "companies" are controlled by local politicians.

I'll support the people I know who drive the trams, rather than the likes of "Wowi" who can husch-husch around as trendy,
but is out to attack the living standard of the workers who provide you with services.

When I'm unhappy with how much I'm being paid I leave the company and get a new job with better pay. What's so difficult about this concept?

These are unskilled workers doing basic work, at what point should they be earning lotsa money?

Get an education, get some skills, earn good money - the concept is simple!

Striking public sector workers re not asking for "lots" of money.
They are asking for a wage that is decent and enough to live on.

Obviously their work is valuable for society or their striking wouldn't make a difference.

If a tax accountant that advises the ruling class on how to rob YOU by transferring their money to Liechtenstein went on strike, it wouldn't matter to society.
A tram driver, a kindergarten worker, a hospital cleaner DO make a difference to our lives.

Good people. Good services. Good wages.

I disagree! It might actually be a net gain to society.

The worst bit is how we'll just end up paying anyways for any wage increase as the extra cost will get passed to the customer. So we get jacked on the non-existant service right now, and we get jacked on higher fees in the future.

Sorry, I just don't have any sympathy for striking workers in a high unemployment environment.

The problem is that most of us, public employees or not, are facing a ising cost of living and falling real wages.
Public employees in a union are just doing something about it.

Not sure when the unemployed issue comes into the argument logically.
Many of these public sector jobs barely pay more than welfare benefits anyway,
Was a Munich Airport worker in the SZ earlier in the week saying he takes home only EUR 50 more a month tha he would get in unemployment benefits.

These nebulous platitudes don't tell us what exactly you think those striking should be making, i.e., what that "decent wage" is.

As for the value to society, that's your value judgement, but no one in the world can I think of a place where tax accountants make less than hospital cleaners, thus society has given its verdict. Keep in mind the preparation to become an accountant is much longer and much more strenuous, and frankly, not everyone is smart enough to be one, thus the supply of people who can do the job is much lower than those who can be a hospital cleaner, and that is bound to affect comparative salaries. Another reason why tax accountants make considerably more money than hospital cleaners is what most say is the world's most convoluted tax code. Reform it to a simpler system with moderate effective tax rates for both businesses and individual, and you will see a difference. Yet, it is much easier for some to enagage in the politics of envy...

As for the example of the airport worker, the other side of the coin is that unemployment benefits might be too high.

My parents are coming to town next Friday (I know, great timing!) and we were planning to go to Dresden by train (DB) on the 16th. I haven't bought the tickets yet...should I even bother?

When workers providing services we all rely on increasingly rely on welfare payments to top up their salary, the pay is obviously too low.

Average pay in Germany has fallen 3% in real terms since 2005; however, since then there has been a MwSt increase (which raised the cost to the consumer of everything subject to the top MwSt rate from 16% to 19%) which can only be blamed on government, not the private businesses that employ most of us. Furthermore, the computation of a fall in real wages assumes a static basket of goods, i.e., no change whatsoever in consumer buying patterns! What happens when the price of a good rises faster than your ability to purchase it? You buy smaller quantities or you switch to less expensive substitutes. Thus, inflation may well be overstated, and real wages understated.


Exactly which job, doing what, MT? Be specific, and what exactly is each position paying?

Yet another nebulous, unsubstantiated statement. How much are they making (break it down by each specific job position) and how much is each receiving in welfare payments, and exactly which sort of welfare payments are they receiving that they would not receive if their salaries were, say 10% higher than they are now? If you cannot provide this information, I don't see how we can simply accept your claims at face value. If you claim to know that they are underpaid, surely you must have some quantitative idea of how much they need, in your opinion, to get paid? After all, localities have to budget for these things, you know. How much, i.e., how much more than now? How to pay for it?

Funny that you make Berlin public sector workers your case celebre- a couple of years ago Berlin wanted the rest of the country to help pay its bills despite the fact its public sector workers made 50% more than their counterparts in Hamburg. Surely the cost of living in the former doesn't outstrip that of the latter, least of all by 50%?

Been there the other week Conq. when I posted links showing that a qualfied, experienced Kindergärtnerin could be on as little as EUR 2000 brutto.

Funny how those who condemn employees fighting against declining real wages alswa<s seem to be on more themselves...

You give the example of one job's salary (and it is an unskilled job that many women can be trained to do) yet you make sweeping claims about every worker? Please. That's your entire evidence?

2000 euros a month (in most cases as a second salary in the family) starting salary for that work (which is what you claimed) is not bad. Perhaps you should find an online tax calculator, especially for Tax Cat V, and then progressively move in 100 euro increments from 1500 euros upward to 3000 euros. You'll notice diminishing returns in terms of Netto salary after taxes and social contributions are taken out. Know what that means? The government would in the case of those in Tax Cat V, be taking a majority of any pay raise out of one government account to pay that public sector Kindergärtnerin and (broadly speaking) putting in right in other government accounts (the infamous tax wedge at work). And that's not counting any MwSt on any increased purchases made by the Kindergärtnerin. Exactly how much should this Kindergärtnerin make, MT?

If you want to see the pay scales go an look for them yourself Conq.
You asked for an example, you got one. End of.

I've got friends who work in the public sector and their pay isn't great.
And that's after training or studying and many years experience and doing work that is socially valuble.
Real pay has been falling in Germany and here are one bunch of workers who aren't taking it lying down.
Good luck to them.

OK, Deutsche Bahn have just announced that they will be going on strike from Monday so the S-Bahn in Berlin will be affected - I think they've said there will be some trains but what with the BVG strike and the reduced S-Bahn service, it looks like it's going to be pretty hard for most people to travel.

I asked for something comprehensive to back up your claims. I recall you discussing the Kinderpflerinnen and Kindergärtnerinnen, but do not recall a link. Please post it and I will give it a close look.

Your intent, as I understand it, MT, is noble, but does not take the big picture into account- and you stubbornly ask that a flawed benchmark be rigidly observed. There is no free lunch in economics...

So, what would you pay the Kindergärtnerin, MT, in order to meet your criterium?

As for my own situation, since you aren't my Steuerberator I don't see how you could possibly know whether or not my real wages are increasing or not. I have found TTers' knowledge of my personal situation to be badly lacking- e.g., garibaldi, for one, once deemed me an "unemployed foreign guest worker" (sounds like an oxymoron, BTW).

How to pay for it? Tax the rich!

Ah, MT, the simple Marxist solution. Of course, they aren't as numerous as you seem to think, and besides, I think they would decamp as much as they possibly could to more wealth-friendly locales if you started to soak them. Look how many make Monaco their official residence. Doesn't Franz Beckenbauer live just over the border in Austria?

I think we could learn from the American expereince there Conq.
If Herr Beckenbauer doesn't want to pay German tax, he could post his passport back to the KVR at any time.

The US isn't a real Vorbild for Germany in terms of international taxation, and not just because of geographical differences. You would be surprised just how many US citizens do give up their citizenship (particularly those who were able to acquire Irish citizenship). Germany can ill-afford to lose its wealthiest, most successful, and most productive people, i.e., those with the most options elsewhere... Taxes are already high on those in the middle class. Just imagine if they had to shoulder a yet heavier burden? I think they would not be very supportive...

Oh the rich can stay, not a problem with it.
Just they should pay towards the society they are in.

For anyone interested in figuring out how to get around the city rather than arguing about the politics behind the strike, here's the link to the S-Bahn emergency timetable, in effect from Monday.
http://www.s-bahn-berlin.de/aktuell/2007/3...chen_streik.htm
Most lines are running 1 S-Bahn every hour, except the S41/S42 Ring (1 every 30mins).

The DB has also cancelled or restricted/shortened a lot of their ICE/IC etc routes.
http://www.bahn.de/blitz/view/static/pdfli..._2008-03-10.pdf
Neither of them have put a time limit on the strike - both emergency timetables are effective from Monday 10.3.2008.

So you think the "underpaid" public sector workers pay all the taxes to fund Hans Eichel's 7684 euro-a-month retirement? Keep dreaming...prefect example of the politics of envy. I support changes in the tax code (especially reducing the regressive MwSt) but you need to get real, MT.

I support the workers who are striking. Suing is ridiculous, not surprised an American brought that up but oh well.

I think its interesting to see how people react to situations such as this.
Too bad most people just want to complain rather than trying to come up with some solutions.
We should be pulling together and supporting the workers, rather than bickering back and forth.

Either way, I live about 1blk. from Hermannplatz. I have an empty room here that people are welcome to stay in during this strike time if it
helps out to not have to travel so far to and from work. There is plenty of floor space, you should bring a sleeping bag, unfortunately I just moved in
less than a week ago and there are no extra mattresses as of yet.

Just send me a mail and I will write you back. ;-)

After this week many people will just buy a car and pollute the air rather than wait around for the public transportation to operate again.

I don't think there will be a long term increase in the use of cars in major cities becasue of these strikes.

That's your example of a low wage? 2000 brutto goes a lot further in Berlin than it would in Munich. I know plenty of people making less than that (including myself up until a couple years ago) and they manage to have their own flats, go out on the weekends, take holidays...

Yes it would be great if everyone got paid vast sums of money for low level jobs. But you don't seem too concerned about the small businesses that are suffering due to these strikes...sorry but I don't find bus/tram drivers on the whole any more noble or deserving of a break than the poor people dependent on public transportation. Most bus drivers here are surly bastards anyway.

Of course EUR 2000 goes further in Berlin than Munich.
Some of the discussion around the pay issue has been about weighted pay in some geographical areas.

I'm a heavy public transport user and am also effected if they strike.

...and meant as such, you humourless splat!

Thanks mate. I chuckled.

If they keep striking every two months or so, yes. People who have to get to work every day or else get fired will not use public transportation anymore, because the risks are too high for them.

However the number of people who will get fired becasue they couldn't get to work becasue of public transport strikes is not going to be big and wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Long term the amount of car traffic has to be reduced in the larger cities and I'd say that the number of journeys wosened by strike action on public transport is FAR less than those due to either weather or congestion on public transport or by car.

I understand that strikes are an inconveience for people. However much I support the strikers, it's an inconveneience to me too.
But it needs to be put in perspective.

Hear Hear!

People don't just go out for work. They go out to meet with friends, go to the gym, to the stores, et cetera. If they can't depend on the public transport system for a week, they might still tolerate it. A month, it starts to get on your nerves. After that, they'll take action and just drive cars. Would you still buy the BVG Monatskarte if they keep striking? Would you pay for 30 days of free ride but only getting 15? For one month, maybe, but would you keep buying the Monatskarte after that?

You know what would be great? If we could have a discussion that addressed the issues actually at play in this particular strike, rather than a duel "unions are evil" vs "I support workers". I'm just sayin'...

Indeed, we rely on public transport for loads of things.
It's obviously worth a lot more than it being "just" an unskilled area to work in.
Long strikes in the public transport sector are rare.
You can probably count on one hand the number of days when people have been seriously effected in the last 20 years.
Unlike with weather or congestion

Most definitely seconded.

It would also be nice to hear more about the specific situation in Berlin rather than hakneyed platitudes which appear to be hurriedly copied out of a borrowed, dog eared copy of the Socialist Worker during a General Studies A' Level class sometime in the early eighties onto the back of an envelope. Presumably there are gaps to fill in random, always to be taken out of context, 'statistics' to illustrate such a vision?

More about the specific situation in Berlin ...

...which is exactly why I said "If they keep striking every two months or so." If the Ver.di and GDL get what they want this time, and they're arrogant enough, they'll demand something else next month and strike again like a spoiled brat if they don't get it.

So how much do these guys actually earn? I can't find it anywhere. If they want more money, I'd suggest education and finding a new job.

Can anyone provide a quick summary of the article in English? Is there any new info?

The GDL arent happy about the collective agreement so they have thrown their toys out of the pram, They meet for last minute talks to try and stop the strike at the same time trying to get a court order to stop them, they will strike anyway apparently and the court order, if it does happen, wont happen in time.
Oh any everyone is criticising the GDL.
I havent seen any news about the U Bahn etc

Also, the GDL claims that their strike coïnciding with Verdi's strike against the BVG was not deliberate, it just turned out that way. I'm confused why they're suddenly taking such drastic measures; back when they were doing one-day strikes with a day of warning, it didn't seem like things would get resolved soon, since there was a fundamental difference of perspective: DB didn't want to give them a separate contract, and they insisted on it. Now I guess the details are falling through, but you'd think that would be easier to sort out with a little less pressure than they're applying.

My vague recollection is that the Verdi strike is about the government trying to lengthen the work week from 37.5 to 40 hours, or something like that. But what I don't know is if there's some expiring agreement that the BVG is about to replace. It seems a bit extreme to screw up an entire city for ten days without going through some sort of escalation of pressure first.

They're not going to publish their income, because then people will find out that they indeed earn quite a lot compared to their education level, and won't symphatize with their demands anymore.