Do Britons have an outdated view of Germany?

BBC News: Germany rejects 'goosestep' image

I'd agree with him.

Fawlty Towers though...nah not to blame.

seems like the Germans are outdated if they still think these shows are current. They are at least 20 years old.

Still hear them being quoted daily by Brits.

cos they were funny. not cos they are up to date.

I have a German colleague who is continually quoting Monty Python and Faulty Towers. He just loves classic humour. doesn't meen he either believes the sterotypes or thinks they are the "current" view.

In my opinion, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" is actually quite positive about Germany and Germans (despite being obviously out of date).

As for Blackadder...

Lieutenant George: The war started because of the vile Hun and his villainous empire-building.

Captain Blackadder: George, the British Empire at present covers a quarter of the globe, while the German Empire consists of a small sausage factory in Tanganyika. I hardly think that we can be entirely absolved of blame on the imperialistic front.

now THAT is humour.

If you say things now, that keeps that memory fresh and current. But that's just semantics.

Grab a Brit off the street and say "Germany" and the first images that spring to mind won't be of the Reichstag covered by Christo or the nightlife in Hamburg or the beauty of the Alps at Garmisch. And that's because there isn't anything to replace the images that are constantly being "kept current" by shows like the ones listed or the innumerous documentaries about WWII. C'mon, show the collapse of the Berlin wall, the forming of the one currency league, something else for a change.

i don't disagree that the image is outdated. I disagree that is down to the three shows listed in the article because they themselves are outdated.

If you read the article again, you'll see that Fischer blames the media in general. It's the BBC who gave the examples.

Lets not forget who runs a large chunk of the worlds media. And lets also not forget who has an interest in keeping Nazism fresher in peoples minds than it otherwise would be, in part to justify their own atrocities in the present day.

German history is so rich, interesting and complex, that the fascination with one particular period can only be artificial and deliberate.

The rest of the world (not just the UK) has an outdated view of Germany because theres a lot of money being spent to keep it that way.

why would the Australians have an interest in perpetuating such stereotypes?

To make sure through that UK voters don't move towards greater European unity / the Euro / a "continental" view on tax and business regulation all of which Mr Murdoch would rather not have.

Strange how much influence he has in Britain.
How much tax did his companies pay in Britain last year?

ah seems he not a bad a chappy as i once believed.

personal opinion:

yes, brits and the world for that matter do. However i think the german people can blame themselves to some extent. How can other peoples have a positive image of you when you dont have a positive image of yourself ( eg why are so many german youth clothing themselves in brazilian shirts, union jack handbags etc). old sins long shadows. unfortunately germans still cower under the shadow of the war. until the collective guilt of the country is bred out through succesive generations then they have no hope. Poor buggers.

Makes me think of pork-based snacks, beer, cinnamon and porn.

What was that classic Fawlty Towers sketch? Ah yes

(Basil babbling on about the war to the table full of Germans. Woman on table starts crying)

German man: "Will you stop talking about the war!"
Basil: "But you started it.."
German man: "No we didn't!"
Basil: "You you did. You invaded Poland."

Get's me every time

but to turn the coin around, germans often have an outdated view of britain too.. ie that we all watch faulty towers.

i mean i know fischer is a lying unfaithful scum bag but he should at least check his brit tv shows.

auf wiedersehen pet had i think very little real german content and was concieved as a group of unemployed builders getting of their arses to find work in a foriegn country and the problems that accour from it. (probably the bit about getting of your arse and finding work is the bit that really offends him!)

faulty towers and monthy python are funny but socialy and politicaly irrelevant to todays britain as getting a job in the indian civil service is. in fact alot of the jokes are 100% old class values (the middle class son who wants to be a miner etc) and rip the shit out of britain as much as they do germany. but fisher to busy shagging wife nr. 15 to actualy go through it properly.

and again with the blackadder, in which the germans play no role whatsoever as apart from being the 'guys in the other trench' and is a real play up of britain and the bloodiest family dispute in european history than anything else. but again mr fisher is getting to much distraction from pratikant nr 17's blowjob, to sit his ever increasing fat arse down and go through a series.

what he didn't mention was 'allo 'allo, probably because it ripped the shit out of everybody concerned and portrayed the germans as normal people trying to avoid any form of war, and also because its so well written and obscure to confuse the average german brain.

so mr fisher zip up your fly and by some dvds, or post in Toytown for a bit tv comedy show night.
the germans are portrayed as arrogant prussians because alot are very ill mannered when abroad. americans are portrayed as lould fat and ignorant, canandians are polite, the french are skirt chasers the italians big babies and the brits hooligans or effet upper class shirt lifters. stereotypes exist, live with it. i work with enough germans who laugh about invading france again, scream 'ab fünf uhr fünfundvierzig wird zurückgemailt' etc in a very dodgy accent i may add. and as too axchange students, when i worked in london i used to hate bus loads of em getting on my nerves and in my way.

funny though, come to think of it, which polititian has lived more than a year in another european country? they all talk about harmony etc but have got the fucking foggiest about being a 'real' european.

"British hooligans Ritchie! Best in the world!"

Maybe, but the first was an Irishman.

"Fat men in leather shorts burping to the tune of 'she'll be coming round the mountain'"

Captain Blackadder

Interesting conversation...I can only say that, after four and a half years of being over here, I have a negative view of the Germans unwillingly, but as a result of how the Germans behave in their society.

For example, I have been playing basketball for 19 years and with all nationalities (Brits, Scots, Americans, Italians, Brazilians), often where I'm the only female and have never had any problems. I have played over here with an all German group of men for 4 years. I have never seen men behave like this. They spend the whole time blaming each other for their own mistakes (is this a consequence of the German's feeling of guilt of being German?), taking their anger (derived from their own highly regulated lives) out on their teammates (no holds barred here...hitting women is OK!), have no team spirit...almost as if they don't know how to be nice to each other...

I guess I just don't feel the 'Menschlichkeit' in German society...exactly as Rudolf Hess said 60 years ago (report in SZ a few weeks ago) that he first experienced 'Menschlichkiet in a Polish prison'...and I think...why didn't he learn about Menschlichkeit from the society around him, like I did back home...OK the war was 60 years ago...Hitler is gone... the Nazis are gone...but how has German society, which (in my opinion) gave rise to these people, changed? If I think about the Germans and German culture in a negative way today it's because they behave in a way that shocks me TODAY and reminds me of what I have seen on films and documentaries... Schade, ich finde, dass ich so denke.

Does'nt it come down to the fact that every nation has a stereotype of every other race or nation and once obtained stereotypes are hard to shake off or change?

Its not a case of asking any Brit what he/she thinks off when asked 'Germany' but try other countries as well e.g. USA, Australians, the French, Japanese, Italians. Most people have a limited or non-existent personal experience with people from other nations so rely on trusted sterotypes and images fed to them ny the media. And the media always have an easier job repeating a stereotype than trying to change it.

Its human nature to be suspicious of things we are not used to or familiar with and this includes other nations. Most people handle this by attaching labels (or stereotypes) to whatever or whoever they are thinking of - that way they are more familiar with the subject and more at ease. Its probably more than national, but also regional, within your own country. Try asking an Englishman about the typical Scot (and words like tight with money' will come up)

We are perhaps the lucky ones by living in a country to which we are not native, so we see beyond stereotypes and see the real German/Germans (good and bad).

For the record, I like Blackadder, Python, Towers for the laughs they give but appreciate they are entertainment and not real life.

Oh, and I have a friend in the UK (aged 40) who refuses to buy German cars, even though they are the best, simply becasue his Dad was injured by the Germans when fighting in the war. Feelings can run deep.

I guess one of the main issues is that nobody from the UK really comes to Germany do they? - i mean for holidays and so on. The british chattering classes decamp to Italy and France every year while the normals go to Spain, Greece, Portugal etc.

But no bugger comes to Germany - there was a big ad campaign in the uk to attempt to change this last year. The perception is that it's cold, the food is bad, its all industrial, no beaches, expensive usw. Germans seen as dull, unemotional and regimented. Grain of truth i suppose, but...

German is also the least learnt of the major euro languages in uk schools - no good for holidays, more difficult to start with (cases, wtf?)

So people don't have any other experiences of Germany to replace the war thing. And it is very easy to lapse into that victor mentality (as i found myself doing in the presence of that neo-fascist we encountered at M.Freiheit recently - i do feel genuinely ashamed now, but at the time it just came out).

The Germans are genuinely pretty much strangers to most British people I think, in such a situation false impressions are inevitable.

If they do come, they go to the hoffbrauhaus or the oktoberfest. What do they see, fat men in tight leather shorts?!?!?!

When I was about to come over here I told the odd passing acquaintance back home that I was emigrating...and then said "but guess where?".

As you can imagine apart from those that knew I was married to a square-head it is impossible for an English person to guess Germany as a destination.

More likely once they have exhausted the obvious France/Spain/Australia/New Zealand/Canada options they get increasingly desperate with answers like:

Rhodesia? Dubai? Thailand? Norway?

then you say Germany...and they go very quiet with a blank expression on their faces.

Which is usually followed by the question 'Why would you want to do that?'

well good news - i may hqve found some common ground. I am sitting in brussels right now and it seems they hate the lot of us - yanks, brits, germans we all independently and collectively suck...

@ 3 Lions: Usually said by people who drive a VW Golf (but crave a Porsche, BMW or Mercedes), drink Beck's, spray Hugo Boss oder Davidoff behind their ears, eat frankfurters bought at Aldi after having styled their hair with Wella gel and smeared Nivea on their faces, yeah, I know the type.

@ jml:
How do you know when a Belgian is dead?
He drops his chips.

@Katrina - That doesnt bode well for me, I've done 4 of those things!!

But surely not Aldi Frankfurters (i.e. you are not dead yet)?

bertelsmann from guetersloh??

That might be true, but you should at least check the facts before posting something like that. Joshka didn't mention any TV show names

To quote the great Stan Boardman,

"The Germans bombed our chippy!"

Posted before:
http://www.ex.ac.uk/german/abinitio/whygerm1.html

YES. THE VIEW OF GERMANS IS OUTDATED.
Update the view then...
does he want germans to be viewed as a nation who basically won't work over 35 hours even though the economy is crying out for this, a country that does not want labour reforms which are needed, a nation who want high wages, high unemployment benefits and fat pension but are too thick to work out how they are going to pay for it.

STICK TO THE GOOSE STEPPING STEREOTYPE - at least they did have some good ideas in those days unlike now

Yeah, but France has the same shitty labour concerns (worse, in many ways), yet they are viewed as great lurvers and culture vultures.

They did an audience poll on Wiso last week and over 90% of the people in the audience were willing to work more hours for the same pay for the sake of the economy. Just try getting it past the trade unions though.

They hate all foreigners equally.

No, they don't - there are different classifications of Ausländer. A Turk is going to get far more hassle than a Brit, for example. There are even different classifications among the Germans themselves, depending on where they come from.

yup. the lowest of the low as far as Germans are concerned are the Spätaussiedler. Germans who emigrated a few generations ago and are now limping back to Germany with their German passports claiming pensions to which they never contributed. Next rung up the ladder are the Ossies (NOT Aussies).

As far as foreigners are concerned, the less you look like a German, the more foreign you are and the more hassle you get.

Yeah hacks me off how the Romanian Siebenbürgers can come here and claim citizenship 700 years later, but decendants of germans who emigrated to australia only 150 years ago cant. Well it doesnt hack me off that much but it would be nice if we had it as easy as the Siebenbürgers!

I guess they did the "right thing" by not integrating with the local culture as the emigrants to aussie did.

The conservatives love the "Spätaussiedler" as they almost never vote for the SPD. Funny how they are much less "integrated" into standard German society that (say) a Turk born here but get all the rights the Turks don't.

What is this? Someone born here, who happens to have turkish parents doesnt get full rights here? That cant be right can it? What exactly do they miss out on that other germans get?

it can be worse than that...

quote from my boss last week

"its so good that we have X typing that, it better to have a german on it"
in this case Y is "turkish" ie born in germany, schooled in germany writes german like a german, but because she cant type, its because she's turkish ie cant speak german.

but this is also a guy who said i couldn't use the word "start" as in flmstart, because it as an english word and are a german company...

BINGO!

So they can't vote, can't get certain jobs, have to have "permission" to be here, are more likely to get worse education/housing jobs and in an extreme case can be deported back to a country they weren't born in, have never lived in and don't know at all: eg The "Mehmet" case.

Yeh, but Mehmet deserved it!!

Here's quite a good explanation of how German citizenship works (in German).
Here's a summary of the main bits.
Pre-2000 German citizenship was purely bloodline-based, you could be born anywhere but if your parent(s) were German, you could be German. If you were born in Germany but had no German bloodline then you weren't.
Now things are slightly different:
If you have a child in Germany (must be physically in Germany) and neither one of you is German, the child can only have German citizenship if one of the parents has lived legally (with full papers) in Germany for over 8 years.
Children who have dual nationality has until their 23rd birthday (must apply before their 10th birthday though) to decide whether to become German or not, should they become German they must give up the other nationality.
If you hold an Aufenthaltserlaubnis for 8 years you may also apply (this is how Owen Hargreaves could have played for Germany).
The law is quite complex here so I've probably missed something but I'm sure that someone will shout.
Katrina

Mehmet WAS a little shit. He had a string of juvenile offences as long as your arm.
He was born and grew up in Germany, it was THIS society that produced him.

Deporting a juvenile him was quite simply racist populism and was subsequently found to be illegal.

Gave great succor to all those neo-nazi groups who scream
"Deport ALL foreign criminals!" with a deliberate blurring as to they mean all "foreigners" who commit crime or that all "foreigners" are criminals and should be deported.

Mehmet is back in Germany, last I heard he was living in a half way house out in the country. I hope he gets his life together and becomes a usefull memeber of society.

Well I am one of the ten per cent who DON'T want to spend half an hour extra in the office per day for nothing. It means half an hour less with my child. So fuck that idea.