Police ID checks at Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof

I have searched through the TT forums and saw that this topic has been discussed in depth by folks living in Munich and surrounds but no one from Frankfurt has mentioned this. Which makes me wonder even more.

I was on my way to the the U4 U-Bahn Station having just gotten off the escalators that are by the main entrance when I got stopped by two cops. Cop one proceeded to ask me for my Ausweiss which I happily produced thinking that they would see I am German and send me on my way. Which was not the case.

Cop one then asked me for my name which I gave(All German names). He then proceeded to give my ID to cop two who then started walking behind me muttering into he's radio. I followed where he was going and was instructed to look in front of me at cop one. Cop one began to inquire about where I was going. I was so nervous at this stage that I rattled off that I was on my way to ADAC in West Frankfurt to find out about changing my South African Driver License to a German one. Cop one then proceeded to ask me how long I lived in SA for and how long I have been in Germany for. I told him. He then made a comment about the fact that I speak with a German dialect which seemed to make him even more suspicious about me.

I started getting a bit fed up with this and and sternly inquired whether I had done something wrong. He told me no and cop two came back at this point gave me back my ID and sent me on my way.

I am by no means angry or upset about what happened. Just a bit freaked out as to why I was stopped in the middle of the passage at 12 in the afternoon. I'm not foreign looking at all and was dressed normally. I can understand if they thought I a bit young looking and up to no good but I was not searched neither was my backpack.

Was I just stopped cause they had nothing better to do with there time?

These things happen from time to time. Smile, say "thank you" and be on your way.

When I was stopped 50 meters from my house for 15 minutes during a random check, I had no complaints. My ID was researched, my wife's ID was researched, my car was researched AND searched. They were friendly the whole time and we had a nice chat during the whole process. No biggie. Random checks are exactly that, random

They picked you, to make the checks look random, instead of picking out all the ____________ (Insert races)..

Just like TSA searches an old Granny after ever xx amount of ___________ (Insert race/religion) looking people.

It could be something as simple as following up reports of a crime committed in the area by someone resembling you. After checking your id and comparing details with a closer look, they may have decided no search was necessary because you weren't the person they're looking for.

Maybe they figured you for an XTCFreak?

Naawwww, say it isn't so!

What does this have to do with anything?

Because I read through the Munich discussion about this topic and people were quick to brand the police racists etc etc.

I was trying to stay away from that.

Apologies if I caused offense.

What are the actual rights of the individual in such a situation?

Do you have to submit all of your details?

Do they have to give a reason for the search?

Or is it just back to the good old days of the SS.

You can resist. You can claim your "rights". Can I watch? I've seen this happen before and it wasn't pretty.

Looking for sensible answers with maybe some facts in them... as opposed to what you are offering.

You have the right to refuse. Do so if you wish, but do so tactfully. When doing so, be prepared to have your time wasted because you will be taken into custody and the ID check will be conducted at the police station instead.

In all seriousness, just show your ID and be friendly. It will only take a moment and then you can be on your way. There is no need to make things worse than they are. I'm sure the cops aren't looking forward to having to deal with some people wanting to test the system. The extra paperwork and headache of having to take someone into custody over a simple ID check is not appealing.

It's called "verdachtsunabhängige Personenkontrolle", or also "Schleierfahndung".

Legal in Hessen since 2000 (Bavaria since 1994), and according to statistics some 12,600 suspects have been framed between 2000 and 2006 by "Schleierfahndung" in Hessen.

German Law text here:
http://www.hessenrecht.hessen.de/gesetze/3...phen/para18.htm

They are exactly allowed to "establish your identity", not more, not less. This is officially finished when your identity is "established", and that doesn't necessarily end with handing over your passport (oh my, it could be forged - well, not very likely).
As part of the procedure, they can search you for "objects establishing your identity". They can also demand any licenses you'll need to officially keep with you (car papers if you're in your car; weapons certificates if you're transporting weapons etc pp). If your identity can not be "easily established" (ie no passport), you can be brought in and taken through identifying procedures as well (fingerprinting etc).

Technically, they will have to tell you the reason why they stopped you at some point during the procedure - in your case probably either "being in a place where illegal immigrants are known to pass through" (transport hub) or "being in a place where drug crimes are committed" (come on, FFM train station is known for that) or "walking inside/around a potentially endangered object" (read: the train station).

The entire thing is different again for Bavaria, afaik. Different state, different laws, of course.

The concept of "Schleierfahndung" is something viewed rather critical, and has been the subject of some court orders before - to the extent that in some states, the "reasons" for which these searches can be performed by police had to be tightened severely.

The fact that the ID check happened at the Hauptbahnhof indicates that it was part of the Schleierfahndung, which exists in several Länder. Police may check IDs randomly, without any specific suspicion or reason, near the borders, at airports, train stations and on national motorways. This has been increased with the Schengen treaty.

I don't think it's a good idea to refuse to comply. One could file a complaint afterwards if one felt treated without the due respect. I think the police should explain on which grounds they do the ID check each time they stop someone.

What exactly constitute "objects establishing your identity"? I don't have a driving licence, and I don't carry my passport around with me for fear of losing it. (For me, losing it here in Germany would be a big headache...and I'm almost tempted to say I'd rather be taken to the police station and be "thoroughly identified" rather than go through the process of getting a new passport.) I do however carry a copy of my passport and my company ID on me. Do you think these would suffice if I were checked?

are you turkish?

I never carry my passport unless traveling more than an hour or two from home. Basically Hasan the answer is white skin => No problem. Not so white skin =>Might just be a problem.

Could you elaborate more on that part please? I'm actually curious.

Nope I'm from Pakistan and brown skinned

and why would being Turkish be a disadvantage in this case...the Turks have got consulates in every city!

try going to turkish consulate any day. there are like thousands of people queing every day

Actually, i was wrong - the numbers are only for 2005.

In 2005 in Hessen, in 89,000 separate (!) "Schleierfahndung" incidents/operations, a total of 123,000 cars and 230,000 people (!!) were checked:

- 1,500 convicted/sought people caught
- 300 cars confiscated
- Due to leads from "Schleierfahndung", some 12,600 cases forwarded to criminal proceedings (out of those: over 5,200 for drugs, 453 for theft, 228 for illegal weapons, 23 for human trafficking).

http://www.faz.net/s/RubFAE83B7DDEFD4F2882...n~Scontent.html

What would happen if you were asked for your ID and you didnt have it on you? I never carry my passport unless I leave the city.

Is there a sirt of german ID for foreigners so we dont have to risk getting our only means of leaving the country stolen?

You would be cuffed, and transported to the station or your house, and held until such time as you can produce the required documents.
There is no German ID card for Foreigners (Its called a Passport). The German ID cards are not issued to non-germans.

If you don't want to carry your passport around with you, then make a color copy of the Picture page, and keep it in your wallet.

Under current law, to my knowledge, you are not required to carry your official identity documents with you. Just to own one.

Personally, i usually make sure to at least have my (German) Driver License on me, which has been enough in such "spot checks" for me before. Driver License is a good choice for that, since it's an official document that has your name and a picture on it.

Notarized copy of your passport would likely do the trick too

If they'd be really bent on getting your identity, they could in theory:
1) cross-check pretty much each and any document (including inofficial) you have on you to cross-reference your identity from these
2) drive you to the station, get your fingerprints, pictures, DNA (... depends on state i think) and stuff, and compare them to any databases they have.
3) drive you to your home, have you get your passport and show it to them.
4) require you to - if possible - call someone to get your passport and bring it to the/a police station.

I've been asked for ID twice and didn't have anything but a credit card. Haven't been cuffed yet.

Thanks for the laugh. Absolute rubbish. I have been stopped and not had any ID on me at all, nothing. I answered a couple of questions and was on my way. The police had more interest in my dog than me (and he had no I.D either). Once again, thanks for the laugh.

I carry and have used a color copy of my passport, plus I've also used my driver's license.

@canaryman / Danhessen

They can do that if they want to be assholes about it and follow the law as its written. Just because they didn't do it to you doesn't mean it can't happen..

Just like if you get caught for speeding, they can give you a ticket (By Law), or they could let you off with a warning. Doesn't mean everybody gets off with a warning.

So, I should not go out for the next week because that satellite that is falling can hit me? Just because I have never been hit by a falling satellite before now does mean that it can't happen.

Okay, I see your logic...I will stay indoors, in the cellar. I think that this is a good idea for you to follow too.

Who's being the unrealistic, whiny LIEberal now?

1) The reason the topic was talked to death in Munich is because ToytownGermany was, for its first few years, ToytownMunich (because Munich really is a "Toytown" and other than the population size has little in common with real cities). This shit happens in all large cities on a regular basis. It was talked about to death because people were incredulous that it happened so frequently.

2) The reason the cops spoke to you in the manner that they did is because they're suspicious and trying to trip you up. It's not what you answer nearly as much as how you answer: the words you use, the body language, your eye movements. They harp on anything that seems out of the ordinary (like a foreigner speaking dialect) and then press on looking for some sort of "tell"; having one cop whisper your info into his phone to confirm your residence status while the other distracts you and asks questions is a game designed to make nervous illegals and other criminals bolt. It's quite effective.

They can stop you at any time and ask for ID. It's not nearly as bad as it is in France where you can always be physically searched without cause because you're "within 50km of a 'port of entry'" thanks to how France defined "port of entry". Show them respect, never call a cop "Du" and they'll show you the same respect and let you get on your way quickly.

Note: If they stop you at a train station and your train is about to leave, tell them so and continue wlking slowly toward your track. They'll normally call the station master and hold the train for the couple minutes they need. I've was once stopped outside an unpopular U-Bahn entrance and went through this shit even though I'm white, was in a suit that cost more than the cops made in a month combined, and had my high-security work badge clearly displayed.

woof.

I was stopped by the polizei for crossing the street when the light with the Red man was lit. When he asked for my passport I didn't have my passport on me as I only carry it when I'm traveling out of the country. I told him I didn't have ID. He then took my purse and searched it only to find no ID. I told him to either take me to the police station or let me pay him the fine, but don't continue to hold me on the street because I had a very early train in the morning to Munich and it was already 2230 and I was very tired. He gave me a warning not to jaywalk again and let me go.

@kato... I guess I was curious about the "framed" part. I think that's just a misunderstanding though. The way its written, I thought 12,000 people were charged with crimes they did not commit.

Go right ahead. Have Fun. I'll be going about my business as usual. Should I be stopped/checked, I have valid ID with me at all times
when I'm out and about. So, except for the 5min it takes for them to do their checks. I have no problems with their checks and have never
had an issues with cops.

Not me.

You were probably stopped because you wear cheap suits, it is a dead giveaway. Wear one of these.

http://www.canali.it/frame_index.jsp?lingua_id=2

By the way, if your tailor does not like the one you try on the hanger, he will have it hand cut for you (as opposed to laser cut on a machine). The police also like 8 month old boxer dogs (even without ID)

Well, just because proceedings were opened doesn't mean they're guilty of anything. *cough*

The fact that "55.7%" (FAZ) of those against whom such criminal proceedings were launched were foreigners is somewhat suspicious in its own right.

... in particular in Hessen under Mister Koch, who managed to have 208 people arrested on rather dubious charges in a single incident the night before the election.

(Does that sound too bitter? Ah hell, we're rid of him. Finally. Probably.)

Sure, 100% agree, that is pretty obvious. That isn't what the meaning of the word framed is

Just out of curiosity ... since Mister Koch is neither a judge or public prosecutor nor a cop, how could he possibly have "managed to have 208 people arrested" ?

An election he lost. I wonder why?

FYI, he was the undisputed winner of the election, albeit by the slimmest of margins (approx. 3,600 votes, or 0.1%).

Huh.. I read in the papers he lost out to the other parties candidate.. Are you sure?

DK, the CDU got 36.8%, and the SPD 36.7%.

Ah

The media, the media, the media...

I also had this happen to me once. I was riding my bike (on the correct side of the road), and they pulled me over. After asking me where I got the bike from, and whether maybe I'd just "found it on the side of the road" they let me go.

You know, I don't really have a problem with being stopped, but coppers over here really need an attitude adjustment. If I've done something wrong, I can understand them being very stern. But if they are stopping me for no reason, they should be overly polite and friendly. When you walk away thinking "Asshole cop" then they have completely failed in their job.

The general public prosecutor ordered the police to arrest them (despite protests from the police, as they weren't prepared to take in that many people that day).
The arrests were a direct followup to the exact same group of people ridiculing Koch in public on Thursday. Except a couple bystanders also got caught.

Let's just say... separation of powers? A joke in the German system. Seriously. The general public prosecutor is a political post tightly bound to the government. And his boss is a very good friend of Koch - part of the "Tankstellen-Connection" from the early 80s whose members currently jointly rule Hessen under Koch's leadership.

... forgot to mention, a second page with a color copy of my unbefristet Aufenthaltstitel.

Wow! I just finished reading this entire string and am totally dumbfounded. If this ever happened in the US - i.e. a cop stopping you and searching your person and/or your vehicle without a warrant or probable cause, s/he would lose his job. Call me naive, call me American, but the whole idea of "Schlierfandung"makes my skin crawl and smacks of the days of the SS. I love Germany, but little things like this make me second guess. As a German-American with dual citizenship and being of a darker skin color (I can pass for Italian, Spanish, or Turkish depending on what part of the world I am in), this just plain freaks me out.

IF you want to start talking about a police state let's analyse such legal wonders as PATRIOT Act and Guantanamo. Lighten up bud and lose the US predeliction for emotional overkill. This is Germany in 2008 not 1938.

Statement of the obvious: Germany is not the US just as many other countries are not...

As someone who has spent their entire life between the German and American cultures I am totally aware that Germany is not the US and the the US is not perfect when it comes to anything. I don't think it's emotional overkill to balk at the thought of the government having the right to just stop and decide that I have to prove who I am - and then cuff me because I insist on my rights. On many levels I can understand why this is done, but on a few other levels I find this personally intrusive and an invasion of privacy. There have been volumes written about the sociological and psychological impact of such occurrences on the individual and group psyche. I am and always will be skeptical of any government ordained invasion of privacy because I believe such things have to be closely monitored to insure that the government does not go overboard and violate people's rights. Because once it is thought of as normal to violate someone's rights in the name of public safety, it's a slippery slope. However I guess this is the price we pay to live in a developed country in a time of uncertainty, violence, and unknown threats.