TT logo
You are viewing a low-graphics version of this page. Click the headline to view full version:

Disabled U.S. spy satellite intercepted by missile

USA 193 shot down on Thursday 21.Feb.2008

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Themes > Space
thefirelane
Full Article from Yahoo! News: Disabled spy satellite threatens Earth

QUOTE (Yahoo! News)
A large U.S. spy satellite has lost power and could hit the Earth in late February or March, government officials said Saturday.

The satellite, which no longer can be controlled, could contain hazardous materials, and it is unknown where on the planet it might come down, they said. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the information is classified as secret.

As for possible hazardous material in the spacecraft, Pike said it might contain beryllium, a light metal with a high melting point that is used in the defense and aerospace industries. Breathing beryllium can lead to chronic, incurable respiratory problems.
Editor Bob
SatTrackCam Blog: Decay of the failed reconnaisance satellite USA 193 (06-057A)

QUOTE (Dr. Marco Langbroek)
USA 193 was launched on 14 December 2006 as NROL-21 with a Delta II rocket from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California but somehow failed and went "dead" shortly after launch. There is no sign that its orbit has been under control since. ... The orbital inclination of the satellite is 58.5 degrees meaning it roughly covers all locations between 60 degrees north and south latitude.

Given it could land anywhere between 60' north or south, meaning an area of ~340,048,000 km²; and given that Germany has a surface area of 357,021 km²; I give it a ~0.1% (1 in 1,000) chance of landing in Germany. Chances of it landing in a TTer's back garden are about 1 in 4 million.

sharpe
why dont they use a treadmill to slow down the satellite?
BadDoggie
This thing is no threat to the Earth. Since it was intended to be in a 28° LEO trajectory the satellite couldn't weigh more than 5 tons. That's about 1/12 of the largest found meteorite, and those things burn up in the atmosphere, just as this satellite will be busy doing.

Our planet has survived being hit by a rock which weighed around 7.35x10E19 tons (although that was probably a very bad weekend to be outdoors). The only threat is to -- at the absolute most -- fewer than 1,000 people, and that's only if the remains of the satellite manage to hit a fully loaded Airbus 380 in flight and completely remove the tail or a full wing. You want to make serious money? Be a bookie and take all bets from people insisting it'll hit land. Give them 10:1 odds on it hitting any particular country (4:1 for US and former USSR), and 100:1 odds that some person will be injured and you could retire on... I think I need to start a new thread here on TT.

woof.
thefirelane
QUOTE (BadDoggie @ Jan 28 2008, 7:18 pm) *
only if the remains of the satellite manage to hit a fully loaded Airbus 380 in flight

Which then nose dives into a nuclear power plant whose resultant mushroom cloud triggers a fault line deep in the earth... awakening Godzilla!
DrivinWest
I'm disappointed by Toytown's conspiracy theorists. C'mon people! Read between the lines! What really happened?
DrivinWest
Little known fact: A Toytowner's father is the only person to have shot down a satellite from an aircraft.

I don't think that's a very good option in this case.
Sin
Is that right? What ever became of the US Oxygen-Iodine laser project?
DrivinWest
Still in use I believe.

Wasn't my dad. She wasn't a regular poster but went out to TT Tues from time to time.
QUOTE (Sin @ Jan 28 2008, 8:40 pm) *
How come Geezers see these things straight up on the quick like, and yer rocket scientists need a crack round the back of the skull

Rocket science is still rocket science. It's hard. American rocket scientists remain second to none. ADMINHIDE-->
GreenTea
Good article about this on BBC News: Why the spy satellite won't fall on your head

QUOTE
In reality, a spy satellite heading uncontrollably towards Earth is not an uncommon event, says Dr Ruediger Jehn, a space debris analyst at the European Space Agency (Esa). ... "When they re-enter they usually burn up in the atmosphere because a lot of heat has developed and there is a lot of friction," he says.

Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing ... all that beryllium evaporating into the air that we breathe. Is it an infinitesimally negligible amount, or are we all being slowly poisoned? Anyone have a clue?
QUOTE (Sin @ Jan 28 2008, 7:48 pm) *
Buggers then, ain't they these NASA people? They could have had a far better material at a cheaper price that is non-toxic

Who cares if it's toxic when the James Webb Space Telescope is going to be stationed 1.5 million km out in space (that's 5 times the distance of the moon) where it won't bother anyone?

QUOTE (Sin @ Jan 28 2008, 8:03 pm) *
The best ones are the ones that explode on the launch vehicle. Money in the bank AND a repeat order.

Nah, the best ones are the really big ones that stay on planet Earth and need spare parts from time to time. tongue.gif ADMINHIDE-->
Sin
BBC News: US 'to shoot down spy satellite'

QUOTE (Sin @ Jan 28 2008, 8:40 pm) *
Tell your father to get his trigger finger trained up again.

Took you long enough. rolleyes.gif

ADMINHIDE-->
QUOTE (BBC News)
The operation to destroy US 193 will have to try to avoid damage to other satellites. There is also the chance that after being hit by a specially-adapted missile, large pieces could remain in orbit, posing a threat to other spacecraft

Never thought about it before, but it stands to reason really. You go blowing up satellites out there in space where the oxygen ain't and you're more than likely to end up with big chunks flyin' about everywhere with big zilcho guidance systems.

Oops! There goes another one.
dooblie
You'd better make sure that you are not flying over the USA when they launch the SM-3 missile at the satellite. Remember what happened in 1988...

QUOTE (Wikipedia)
On July 3, 1988, USS Vincennes (CG-49) shot down Iran Air Flight 655, an Airbus A300B2, using two SM-2MR missiles from her forward launcher,[9] killing 290 people. The aircraft was apparently mistaken for an Iranian F-14.
djgrazy
apart from the fact that blasting it will leave large pieces in space which can do harm to other sats. Why are we worried about this? It is carrying hydrazine, doesn't hydrazine decompose at 800+ degrees c? Surely re-entry would take care of this hazard? The fuel tanks aren't designed for re-entry.

Seems to me this may be a cover for something else, in a TWA/Missile kind of way, remember the stories we were told about the debris being infected by deadly bacteria and no one was to come in to contact with it? Back then the FBI and NTSB did not want anyone looking too closely at any of the wreckage.

I bet it or the missile lands on Iran!
Mapleleafdude
Can they just shoot a "disabled satellite" out of the sky. Thats so US, the Germans would have sent up a team to see how "disabled" it is (10%,50% etc.) and send it in to "early retirement" (disability pension 10%,50% etc).
BattalionBoy
I would imagine that to shoot this thing to pieces it requires a missile designed specifically for that purpose. I can only imagine that this is all a set up for the US to test such a missle and make it look like it is doing everyone a favour. A missle system that can knock out other enemy spy satellites would be an extremely useful tool should the occasion necessitate.
Editor Bob
The missile intercept is now set for 04:30 CET Thursday 21.Feb.2008.

Curiously enough, this is during the lunar eclipse. That, however, is thought to be pure coincidence. The timing was chosen because it was about the soonest possible date after the Space Shuttle returns from its current mission to the ISS (TT topic link).

Although mainstream media is mostly referring to the operation as "shooting down" the satellite, it won't strictly speaking be shot down. Rather, the missile will intercept the satellite, the force of impact will break the satellite up into lots of smaller pieces, all of these will continue to orbit for a while, and then after a few days the bits will fall back to Earth. Nobody knows where they'll fall, but the smaller pieces (perhaps all the pieces) will burn up in the atmosphere.

Reasons for the intercept thought to be:
  • a chance for the U.S. to test such an intercept on the cheap (target practice)
  • a chance for the U.S. to prove to other countries (most notably China) that they can do this
  • smaller pieces make it less likely that secret technology could be retrieved by foreign governments
  • preventing a full tank full of hydrazine from landing intact and posing a hazard to humans on the ground
Further details:
James_Runner
The International Herald Tribune (on Feb. 18) highlights Chinese objections to shooting it down, due to the resulting pollution and debris in space. There is also the question of motivation: Is shooting down the satellite to protect public safety or US military/technology secrets?

QUOTE
"In my opinion, this decision is imprudent and ill advised," said Li Bin, an arms control specialist at Tsinghua University in Beijing. "If this satellite is shot down, the toxic fuel will still be there. Therefore, the pollution still exists." But, Li said, destroying the satellite would be an effective way to prevent sensitive technology from falling into the wrong hands.
TexMunich
CNN: Navy missile hits dying spy satellite, says Pentagon

...or not, for all those conspiracy types.
Genie
Yoohoo!

Satellites 0:1 USAians
Sin
...says Pentagon

And who are we to ever know?

One thing that I did pick up on was the Russian reaction. They're not altogether happy, are they? They've been bandying phrases like "Cold War" about all morning, which I suppose, if you've got your money tied up in arms industry shares would be a very fine thing indeed, wouldn't it?

Expect the Russians, Chinese, and possibly even the Iranians to be 'shooting' down satellites over the coming months in a show of 'tit-for-tat'. You can call me a cynic. I don't really care.
Sin
However, I've just seen footage which suggests that the missile hit something, and that a gas cloud (indicating the Hydrazine) was released.
Editor Bob
The footage was broadcast on CNN. Here's a copy on YouTube: U.S. Spy Satelite Shot Down - Ballistic Missile Intercept.
Genie
QUOTE (Sin @ Feb 21 2008, 3:17 pm) *
Expect the Russians, Chinese, and possibly even the Iranians to be 'shooting' down satellites over the coming months in a show of 'tit-for-tat'

Can you name a date when we can look back, as we did so many times before, and call your FUD for what it always is?

They shot down a satellite, get over with it. There were good reasons to do so and even if there were also some other dickwaving involved, you would probably be shrieking and crying murder if they'd have let the thing fall in your back yard.
jml
QUOTE (Sin @ Feb 21 2008, 3:17 pm) *
'shooting' down satellites over the coming months in a show of 'tit-for-tat'

Tit for tat? They're going to go shoot down their own satellites and hope that the debris might hit something valuable? Sweet, I'm pretty sure I saw that footage on space invaders.
jml
Aagh more satellites. The Japanese are angling for super speed internet. I wonder if the satellite has hello kitty on it. You reckon the Chinese will go send up some evil pokemon spy satellite to destroy her?
DrivinWest
Five myths about the satellite smash-up

Myth No. 1: The Navy missile shot down the satellite.

Reality: Hitting a satellite with a missile is not at all like hitting a bird with a bullet and watching it plummet to the ground. An orbiting satellite stays in orbit not because of its power or guidance, but merely because of its forward speed. An attack that does not substantially change that orbital velocity cannot drive the satellite out of orbit, no matter how much physical damage it does.

The only practical way to remove such targets from orbit is by slowing them down. In practice, that occurs as a result of air drag, an effect that can take hours, weeks, or centuries depending on the thickness of the air at the satellite’s altitude. Breaking a big spacecraft into smaller pieces does increase the effects of air drag — as demonstrated dramatically last week — but it is the key role of air drag that makes the critical causal link between "shooting" and "downing" the target.

Myth No. 2: Falling satellites aren’t really hazardous, and since they’ve never hurt anybody before, they were unlikely to hurt anybody this time. Hence, there must have been a secret "real reason" for the missile mission.

Reality: First, counting on a string of successfully dodging bullets is no open-ended guarantee of being bullet-proof forever. The odds have a way of catching up with you, and defying them is an all-too-common fallacy called “normalization of deviance.� At NASA, this attitude laid the foundation for the Challenger and Columbia shuttle disasters.

Second, it’s not true that past safe outcomes always occurred even when countries let their big satellites randomly fall to Earth. Just the opposite is true — for decades, major spacefaring powers have taken deliberate and expensive steps to mitigate the ground-impact hazards of satellites.

All Russian spacecraft and U.S. military satellites heavier than 15,000 pounds are deliberately steered into untraveled expanses of the far southern Pacific Ocean. NASA steered its Compton Gamma Ray Observatory into a precisely planned atmospheric re-entry in 2000, and tried (but failed) to do the same with the Skylab space station in 1978.

In last week's case, the Pentagon said it resorted to the missile-intercept option because the spy satellite's guidance system was inoperable. Now, the mix of motivations for making the missile attack can be debated — but the up-front official claim about mitigating hazard cannot be glibly dismissed.

Myth No. 3: The hydrazine on the spy satellite was unlikely to reach the ground in any concentration worth worrying about.

Reality: Space officials were so concerned about the satellite's full tank of hydrazine fuel because they believed it had frozen solid, due to the low temperatures aboard the spacecraft. They feared that the titanium-shielded "toxic iceberg" would survive intact all the way to the ground and disperse around the crash site, not in the upper atmosphere. Safety officials had never been faced with this type of falling material before.

How dangerous is hydrazine? The chemical is considered toxic as well as flammable. U.S. space workers have indeed survived massive short-term dosing by the chemical during fueling accidents, but they did so due to the immediate application of pre-deployed safety measures.

The U.S. might have been held legally responsible for damage following the impact of such a hazardous cargo in a region with active agricultural exports or tourism.

As with the Palomares incident 42 years ago, in which two U.S. nuclear weapons fell to earth in Spain after an aircraft accident, people outside the region might be so spooked that they stop buying the regional exports and stop visiting its recreational facilities. The lost business alone could have cost hundreds of millions of dollars — compared with the estimated $60 million cost of the missile intercept.

Myth No. 4: The missile was aimed directly at the fuel tank, in order to pierce it and let the hazardous contents leak out.

Reality: Sure, the fuel tank was the missile's main target — but the missile didn’t have to hit the tank to crack it open. It’s hard to imagine how the warhead’s guidance system could have spotted the tank anyhow, inside the blob that was the image of the entire satellite. Hitting the target dead center and thus smashing the entire satellite to smithereens was the easiest way to ensure maximum damage to the tank.

Myth No. 5: The satellite disintegrated into more than 3,000 pieces because the fuel exploded.

Reality: Some Pentagon officials seemed to imply this, as evidence that they had achieved the goal of destroying the tank. But the kinetic energy involved in the ultra-high-speed collision was more than enough to impart enough force to cause the violent shattering — it certainly was orders of magnitude greater than the chemical energy that would have been liberated from the ignition of the entire fuel supply, even assuming it wasn’t frozen. That collisional energy was also the reason that some pieces of the target satellite got thrown forward so energetically, even though the missile hit the satellite from the front.

Most of the pieces fell through the atmosphere and burned up within a couple of days of the intercept. As of Tuesday, the Air Force Space Command was reportedly tracking 17 fragments that were still in orbit.

What's the harm in just letting all these myths lie?

The danger is that the topic of weapons in space is a serious one requiring serious debate, especially in this election year. Hanging onto the technical myths could lead to misconceptions on one side of the debate ("our missiles were so accurate they could make a precision strike on the fuel tank") or the other ("the shootdown created a cloud of toxic debris that's still in orbit").

If we can "shoot down" the fuzzy thinking that has frustrated a serious exchange of views on this important national security issue, that would represent a much more enduring contribution to the safety of this planet than just protecting one random spot from half a ton of plummeting poison.
Punchbear
Why all the shooting? Couldn't they have just put it here?

perdido
what satellite? Will this affect TT Tuesday?
perdido
Other than that "Killl them all" was an awesome Lp, and that I wish katrina would send me a random PM.
You are viewing a low fidelity version of this page. Click to view the full page.