Munich Conference on Security Policy

The annual security conference will be taking place in the Bayerischer Hof on Promenadenplatz over the weekend 9-10th February 2008.

The themes are war and how to fight for peace.

Territorial warfare, armament policies (size of bombs used in Hindukush for example) and such like will be discussed. Afghanistan and how to wipe out the Taliban are current issues to be decided.

There will be demonstrations in central Munich which are completely legal and your right.

Find out more about them, check the papers and help do something to raise awareness of what really goes on behind closed doors in the name of peace and security.

OMGwaffles! BAD MILITARIES PEEPULS R CUMING TO MYOONICK!!! PROTEST! FIGHT DA POWAH!

NATO exists because the despite the cooperation of 1947's Treaty of Brussels, France, the UK and Benelux knew damned well they couldn't keep Soviet power in check without the US, who also brought in all the other countries bordering the Atlantic (except for Spain).

NATO kept detentes during the Cold War. NATO designed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. NATO prevented the Soviets rolling into Western European countries the way the rolled into Prague and later Poland. NATO stopped the Yugoslavian war and genocide.

But they're military and therefore something you should protest. Protest against in what way you don't really make clear, but a general protest sounds real neat-o. Plus, you'll be, like, you know, like, outside the mainstream or something, you know, because you're, like, you know, protesting. And stuff.

Go to Bosnia-Herzegovina -- a place which was bombed by NATO forces -- and ask them to join in your protest. Let me know if you manage to count to ten before you get slapped.

woof.

Ah, but NATO bombed Bosnian Serbs and not the other two warring parties. So while the Muslim-Croat Federation wouldn't welcome her proposal with open arms, I don't think she'd risk any "bitchslapping" in Republika Srpska.

Remind me again who Karadzić's and Mladić's Croatian counterparts were...

Had it not been for them and Milošević NATO wouldn't have ever bombed them to begin with. NATO's actions brought a much quicker end to the civil war than could've otherwise been expected.

woof.

Here's an idea. How about if you find out more about them and post the information or related links here. As it stands, I'll be joining the demonstration protesting the lack of information about the demonstrations. It's the least I can do...and never let it be said that I didn't do the least I could do.

Why make fun of something which affects a lot more people's lives in a serious way.

Sure, I could post more info but I don't want to. Get out and find out more. Who am I to tell? I know whose side I'm on.

It' not a question of protesting or being against something. It's about getting involved and not acquiescing. Just wanted to remind people about the conference in two weeks, since no-one had posted.

There's no need to bring in Karadžić, Mladić or anyone else, I'm just pointing out that the entire population of Bosnia-Herzegovina is not necessarily pro-NATO.

Without them my statement would've been pretty pointless, no? It was, you know, like, them guys who caused everybody to go, like, OMGPONIES!!! and like, get NATO involved to begin with, like you kno`w?


What? Do you speak English? Could you practice a bit before, you know, like, hitting the Post button?


If you want someone to even consider your position (much less join it), it's up to YOU to explain why.


Find out more about what? What side is there to be on? The side that wishes every country had nuclear weapons and hoped that the Soviet Union had won in Afghanistan and rolled into Japan?

A protest is not about protesting. Umm... yeah. What's your dealer's cell phone number? You clearly know where to get better drugs than I do.

Not acquiescing to what? What do you think people are acquiescing to (besides the first 60-year-long lack of war in Europe over the past 1,000 years)?

To sum up, you want to call a protest (which isn't a protest), against a military organisation (which has managed to keep peace for 60 years) because you think people are acquiescing (without being able to explain what they may be submitting themselves to [other than the peace NATO's kept for the last 60 years]).

Do you ever bother to think about stuff or do you just post every cockamamey idea that enters your noggin?

woof.

Hope that made you feel better, Monsieur Je sais tout.

I'm still waiting for you to explain yourself. You said it's a protest which... isn't a protest. This protest/non-protest is against an organisation which has kept the peace for the longest time in Europe EVER. And you want people to know all about it... by... not telling them anything about it.

Do you still not understand?

woof.

I've never heard this referred to as the 'NATO' Security Conference, so I'm gonna change the topic title. Nyah nyah nyah. And since no one has even bothered to post a link to the damn thing: 44th Munich Security Conference. You're all a bunch of lazy gits.

And this is what the conference is about, according to the official website (in case you're too lazy to even click the link I provided):


'Whether any strategies exist at all'? Christ I certainly hope so or else they might as well just cancel next year's conference and pencil in World War III instead.

Personally, I always enjoy the thing cos I work near the Bayerischer Hof and there's loads of hottie police officers all over the place while the conference is on.

See previous TT topics:
Munich Security Conference 2007
Munich Security Conference 2006
Munich Security Conference 2005

I don't care who is taking part in this conference or what they're discussing, but why does it have to be in Munich every bloody year? Why can't they take it somewhere else for a change? It's not as if Munich, or even Bavaria, or even Germany, or even Europe for that matter, is the only place concerned by the issues to be discussed. And why do they have to have it right in the middle of a big city where it must be hell to ensure the required level of security? Why not go to some remote location where they aren't bothering anybody and they can ensure nobody bothers them? If they have to come to Bavaria, how about that Schloss on the island in Chiemsee? Or up at the top of the Zugspitze? I'm sure this has all been discussed before, but I just feel like having a rant about it.

Is anyone organising a demo to protest about the citizens of Munich being denied access to their town centre for a whole weekend?

i like having the conference in munich. why not? they will meet somewhere, might as well be munich.

Anybody gonna answer the 'who's payin' for all this?' question?

Aktionskonzept

Proteste gegen die Siko 2008
WIR STELLEN UNS QUER

Samstag, 9. Februar 2008:
16.00 Uhr Zentrale Kundgebung auf dem Marienplatz
18.00 Uhr: Großdemo zur Münchner Residenz

Die NATO-Strategen, die sich im Februar wieder in München versammeln, werden diesmal hautnah und direkt mit der Protestbewegung konfrontiert werden. Wenn sie am 9. Februar in ihren Limousinen von der Militärtagung im Bayerischen Hof zum Gala-Dinner in den Kaisersaal der Münchner Residenz fahren, werden ihnen tausende Kriegsgegnerinnen und Kriegsgegner im Wege stehen.

Unsere Großdemonstration am Samstag, 9. Februar wird diesmal – nach der zentralen Kundgebung auf dem Marienplatz – zum Odeonsplatz ziehen. Wir gehen direkt vor die Residenz, wo am Abend die Veranstalter der NATO-Tagung ein groteskes Schauspiel aufführen, das an Scheinheiligkeit nicht mehr zu überbieten ist: die Verleihung einer "Friedensmedaille" an einen der Günstlinge der Kriegsmafia.

Wir werden dort sein. Wer werden den Kriegsplanern, den Kriegstrommlern und Kriegsprofiteuren lautstark und unmissverständlich klarmachen: Ihr seid die größte Bedrohung für die Menschen auf diesem Planeten. Ihr seid hier und überall auf der Welt unerwünscht. Wir wollen keine Kriegstreiber und Massenmörder in München. Krieg ist Terror.
Als Aktionskonzept in Ergänzung zum Aufruf vom Plenum des Aktionsbündnisses beschlossen

WIR STELLEN UNS QUER!

Class bit of protest hippy talk that. Kriegsmafia... He he he. Why dont these people grow up and do something more important with their time I don't know.

The German Union (Deutscher Gewerkschaftsbund) is showing the film JARHEAD - EIN LEBEN IM DRECK this Thursday at 8 pm. Entry is free, discussions can follow the showing. It's Schwanthalerstr 64 in the DGB Haus. Großer Saal.

This film highlights surgical operations by NATO as in 1990 the second Gulf War. It is a film without heroes or pathos.

Perhaps a good way to learn something about NATO tactics. There will be lost of grown-ups there! The film is in German but the pictures are universal.

Nato were not present in the Second gulf war. In fact the first NATO out of theatre offensive operation was Kosovo and then Afgahnistan. If you're going to protest about something at least get it right. Idiots.

Yes, sure, if they're going to launch a massive security operation, close off areas of the city centre, shut down tram lines and possibly other public transport services, close off parking lots, confiscate parked bicycles, drive away shoppers causing loss of turnover for shops in the area, cause massive inconvenience for everyone and turn the city centre into a battle zone between demonstrators and security forces, they will do it somewhere, might as well be Munich.

Somewhere on an island in a lake like Schloss Herrenchiemsee or whatever it's called would be ideal. The conference participants can talk waffle in magnificent surroundings that they perceive as well suited to their bloated egos, the demonstrators get a nice day out in the countryside, the security logistics are far simpler, and ordinary folk in Munich can go about their business in peace. Everybody wins.


Isn't there a forum rule that says no posts entirely in German?

Here you go...

www.nato.int

Check operations and missions.

well, whenever i happen to be in the city on those days, i find it rather amusing. it usually the demonstrators that get in my way.
looking at the demonstrators is funny, especially when splinter groups suddenly start running in the side streets. I just have to wonder if they actually have nothing better to do.

as to preparation and security measures. I am sorry but i have to say it: stop moaning, this is a few days in the year. you can shop roughly all year around ( if you deduct bank holidays and sundays.) what is the big deal?
i have done my shopping on those days and it was only the demonstration that made the shops close while it passed by. so it's not really the conference but the demonstration that makes shops close and lose (that all so important) business.

why not munich? maybe as a münchern kindl i rather have a big event in munich than hamburg, berlin or somewhere else. it gives the city a special buzz.

as to the suggestion of herrenchiemsee, i thought herrenchiemsee is an unfinished old palace and doesn't really have any facilities for a modern conference centre.

Here's some food for thought in English

http://www.socialistaction.org.uk/archive/99europeNATO.htm

I hear some dreadful lefties are organising a "white block" and asking for more police powers, more surveillance and fewer civil rights.

MT, would that be the lefties that are always trying to restrict economic freedom and personal liberty?

I'm sure Nokia workers are chuffed to bits about the "economic freedom" they'll have on Hartz IV and if they decided say, to occupy the factory to stop it closing, Schäuble's little green elves would soon show them the limits of their "personal liberty".

What did they and the NRW/Federal governments think, that when the bribes, er, subsidies ended, that Nokia was going to stay around? If the plant were competitive cost-wise it would never have needed subsidies in the first place. I feel a lot of sympathy for the workers, but that was a failure of government with the subsidies. The company is also to blame for not creating the promised number of jobs but I think that was swept under the rug until Nokia pulled the rug out from underneath stakeholders' feet.

You might, MT, want to remind yourself that there aren't any job guarantees unless there is a contract signed, and even that can be overruled by bankruptcy. I know that is probably one of your reasons for disliking capitalism, but that is how the real world works. As for occupying the factory, I think that would be most unwise, not just because it would be illegal and cost the workers far more pecuniarily than it would gain them (besides who would hire them after such wanton disregard for private property) but also because the factory will go dark. If they do so beforehand, they will lose paychecks as well as facing charges. Now what sense does that make? Property rights protect everyone, but particularly the less powerful in our society, a point you would do well to remember.

What should you have learned here, MT? At a minimum, that subsidies have some nasty side effects and generally shouldn't be paid to companies in order to get them to locate plants in your jurisidiction.

MT, I have a German-English Wirtschaftswörterbuch that was published in the former DDR in 1986. It's really a good read (it was intended for East Germans studying the US and UK economies). It would probably be perfect for you.

Eh? Whatever gave you the idea I'm a fan of a state capitalist economy as was run in the Stalinist GDR?
News to me there guv!

Subsidies is a funny one and to be viewed with caution.
Everyone is supposedly against them till it's their local area.

The hypocrisy of both the CDU and SPD is galling over Nokia.
Both parties praise the capitalist market economy to heaven but then moan and bitch when Nokia acts natually within that system based on profit motive.

The financial system is another one. the markets bitched about subsidies for years.
When they totally fucked up on the housing market all of a sudden they come running for state subsidies and bail outs.

Anyway, back to the Siko rather than economic policy.

All of which is under direct supervision by NATO.

What, are pigs flying over Munich? MT is talking some sense (with of course the glaring exception of nonsensically claiming the former DDR had a capitalist system)! You may actually understand one day why the free market is a poor person's best friend.

Someone really needs to explain to you, though, MT, that to have capitalism, you need to let the price mechanism actually operate, which of course was not the case in DDR Schlaraffenland.

Recognising how market capitalsm works doesn't mean universal approval!

But sometimes it has a positive role. I'd break the link between the breweries owning property in unich (espeically Spaten!) and pubs being forced to sell their beer.
More choice for the consumer, lower prices quite likely. But cuts back on the "economic liberties" of the breweries.

Swings and roundabouts.

How are the pubs thus forced to sell the breweries' beer (doesn't sound like economic freedom as I know it)?

Munich breweries own a LOT of property. If you rent a pub of them, you have to sell their beer and X litres a month.
And they charge you over the market rate.

If the breweries had to sperate their business of renting out property and brewing, the market would be more free, there would be more choice and prices should fall.
Alles süpi oder?

BUT, forcing that through would be a disadvantage to the breweries and restrict their ability to extract maximum profit frm their legally owned property.

So there is a conflict of interest and government getting involved would be a restriction of the natural functioing of the market in itself.
So, swings and roundabouts.

Although I think that is a poor business pratice, it's apparently a voluntary business relationship. You don't have to do business with the breweries as landlord, right (i.e., they do not have a monopoly on properties which can be used as pubs)? And they don't insist that the pub sell only the beer brewed by the brewer/landlord, right?

Seems to me that the issue is whether or not there is anti-competititive behavior and a restraint of trade, not whether or not the breweries would be illegally kept from maximizing profit.

Oh hippy one. Once you've put out your josh stick check out the same website yourself. You'll see that Nato has had no offensive role in anay of the Gulf wars. In fact if it wasn't for NATO your life aould be one hell of alot different.

What is interesting is which weapons were used by NATO .The A-10 "Warthog" jets were deployed against targets in Kosovo "a danger to the people and environment of the entire Balkans."

The A-10s were the anti-tank weapon of choice in the 1991 war against Iraq. It carries a GAU-8/A Avenger 30 millimeter seven-barrel cannon capable of firing 4,200 rounds per minute. During that war it fired 30 mm rounds reinforced with depleted uranium, a radioactive weapon.

There is solid scientific evidence that the depleted uranium residue left in Iraq is responsible for a large increase in stillbirths, children born with defects, and childhood leukemia and other cancers in the area of southern Iraq near Basra, where most of these shells were fired. Many U.S. veterans groups also say that DU residues contributed to the condition called "Gulf War Syndrome" that has affected close to 100,000 service people in the U.S. and Britain with chronic sickness.

TWINKIE ALERT! TWINKIE ALERT!


That's how the US equips the A-10, along with up to 7 tons of mixed ordnance, drag bombs, incendiary cluster bombs, combined effects munitions, mine dispensing munitions, AGM-65 Maverick missiles and laser-guided/electro-optically guided bombs; infrared countermeasure flares; electronic countermeasure chaff; jammer pods; 2.75-inch (6.99 centimeters) rockets; illumination flares and AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles.

And do you know why the GAU is used? No, because you're looking for something to whinge about. Heaven forbid you learn any facts. The GAU is the only weapon in the world which can penetrate a fucking modern tank's armour. And what is the only sort of mission an A-10 is ever used for? Ground attack... to stop tanks and other armoured vehicles.


No there's not. There's a lot of speculation but the only claims to the veracity of DU health danger are coming from steaming piles of shit like Indymedia. Right on PubMed you can see for yourself that no conclusive epidemiologic data have correlated DU exposure to specific health effects. No proof. NONE. And then there are the Gulf War veterans who also show similar ailments except they were rarely on the receiving end of DU munitions. If you're going to complain about DU, you really ought to learn a few things about it, like the fact that it's hardly the most poisonous heavy metal out there and it's not terribly radioactive either.

You didn't put much information in your profile but you've outed yourself as having been born after 1977 because by the time they hit 30 people stop trying to find something to protest against just for the sake of it (and, if they're lucky, piss off mommy and daddy at the same time). You're doing everything possible to avoid the facts so that you can be mad at NATO and globalisation and, I'll bet, capitalism in general. Because command economies work so well.

woof.

I do not often disagree with you, especially when you are debating with the unrealistic, namby pamby, rose-tinted glasses wearing liberal lefties (Eurovol does not count as he now owns a BMW and has rejected his liberal roots, BUT you are incorrect. The following report uses the word "penetration!. There is an error in the report, according to the interview with the tank commander in that the penetration was from a shoulder launched missile that he saw coming and not a roadside bomb.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6583607.stm

T

Sorry, I should've written "only airborne-delivered munition which can penetrate". While a shouldered rocket launcher can take out tanks, it's better to to take care of business from the air than on the ground. You lose so many fewer of your troops that way.

BTW, you do realise that I AM a "liberal leftie", right? I just happen to prefer not being made the fool in a debate by clinging to stupid ideas simply because they sound good. You know, like ethanol production subsidies? Shit that's incredibly wasteful, can't help deal with our energy needs, but is very effective in raising food prices around the wold, starving additional millions every month. But it fucking SOUNDS wonderful: "green" energy from "renewable resources".

woof.

Well, apparently, the US has rigged up a 2000kg JDAM that can hit a moving target, specifically a tank. It is fully laser guided and actually works but 2000kg seems a little sledge-hammer vs the walnut.

There is nothing wrong with liberals (except the hypocrisy and the NIMBY) which is so prevalent with them.

Anyway, this is all off topic, what are "we" protesting about this week? (a Toytown boycott of which store? Blood diamonds from Peckham? A right to riot wherever we want or going to some remote town in Bavaria to stick up posters of some bloke that supposedly abandoned his wife in Australia (I cannot remember the thread title for that one)

OK, let me give this one to you in very fiscally conservative terms:

Do you have any fucking idea how much fucking money you can save (not to mention esteem you can earn by appearing "sensitive") when you point out the blood cost of a diamond to a woman as she contemplates how much of your cash you should piss away to make her look more sparkly?

You're welcome.

woof.

Good thing that I purchased my wife a ring with diamond that was from Russia. (Not as glamorous as coming from Peckham, I will concede)

Oh well, I guess I could go along and watch for the free entertainment value then. I don't have a fetish about policemen in uniform though, so that bit will be lost on me. Unless some protester nutjob sets fire to the hotel. Mmm - firemen in uniform - now that could be worth a look.


Oh, I also moan when I find my bus routes disrupted due to stuff like Blade Night and the Streetlife festival and God knows how many other events that interfere with the normal functioning of the city. I may be exaggerating, but last summer it seemed like there was something nearly every weekend. There are only 52 weekends in the year - less if I deduct the ones when I'm out of town - and every one is precious to me.


Herrenchiemsee came to mind cos I seem to recall it having been mentioned in an earlier discussion on this subject. Don't know if it actually has the facilities for an event like this. But if not Herrenchiemsee, there must be quite a few places around Bavaria that would do the job. I'm sure it would make more sense for them to go to some out-of-the-way place, rather than in the city centre where the security aspect must be a nightmare. Still, they do it every year, so I guess they've got it nailed. Just need to draft in enough security forces, at whatever cost. Hey, I wonder if I can get a few percent reduction on my Isarcard for Feb, since I suppose the 19 tram won't be running through the city centre that weekend?

Well done BD! I am so impressed with your resourcefulness. Obviously the kinda guy the world can't do without! But fact-mongering is one thing, interpreting realities is another. Perhaps a glance beyond the end of one's wagging tail?

Makes him sound like he's looking out of his arse.

Oh!

I see now.

The film is on tonight and free!
Schwanthaleratr 64
8 pm
Großer Saal

"Filmnacht zur Sicherheitskonferenz": Jarhead (in German, no subtitles)

No to wars in the name of security

There's an option to voice opinion and pose questions after the film...

I must be missing something...Jarhead as an anti-war flick?

How do you figre that?

I saw it as a pretty decent representation of the life of an infantryman, and some of the absurd, but somehow comical, moments of war. I especially like the explanation of how to pass the time, and the wife break up video scene was right on. (What are you doing?...I'm going to watch the video.)

No heroes? The Jamie Foxx character seemed heroic to me.

By the way, who answered the questions which were asked after the film last night? Was the author of the book there? The director of the film? Any of the characters portrayed in the film? Anyone connected in anyway to the Marine Corps during the Gulf War?

I agree, the film is pretty crap. but the discussion about the security conference would have been well worth going.

Most people do not realize that the Security Conference is funded via the armament industry and the ministry for defense.
There is no official protocol.
It is not a democratic setting.

I say no to guns. Let men argue it out with their fists if they need to fight.

Leave guns and bombs out. Give the money away to help people who need it.

Wait a minute...you didn't go?

I went but you missed something.

I would have been worth going to if you had gone.

OK. I'm still not informed. Does anybody know who actually foots the bill for this conference to be held in Munich, together with the costs of policing?