If you don't want to speak German, just leave

Hello everyone, I passed this forum by accident and had to have a look at peoples' opinions. I am German, born and raised in Munich been here almost all my life!
I would like to say that I really had to laugh when I saw some posts on here...does it really bother people that much if people were Tracht?
I have to say actual "Tracht" and what they sell as Dirndl these days seems like something completely different! I think people from abroad or Saupreissn (as the Bavarians say ;-)) can just as well wear Dirndl and Lederhosen as everyone else! I mean people from all over the world celebrate St. Patricks Day for instance and dress up although they have nothing to do with Ireland.
The only thing I dislike is guys wearing Lederhosen with T-Shirts and Flip Flops and then think they are wearing a traditional Bavarian outfit (entweder ganz oder gar nicht).
What I dislike though is foreigners that moan and bitch about Munich or Germany but have been living here for a while (I mean there must be something those people like about the city), or people who are from abroad who have been living here for more than 2 years and hardly speak any German.
I went to a Toytown meet-up last year in summer because my boyfriend is from England and when people asked me where I was from and I said Munich the only thing I got was a dirty look!
I am sorry to say this but why move to another country if you don't wanna learn the language and don't want to meet people from that country and you only stick with your own kind, those people should bugger off where they came from!
Especially people who are from English-speaking countries who speak almost no German at all neither another language other than English should really not make jokes about the German accent!
Those f... should really get the hell out of Germany.

Topic split: Foreigners wearing Tracht, right or wrong?

Ausländer raus, gel?

I do not believe that for one second. If you got a dirty look it was sure as hell not because you said you were from Munich.

welcome to TT, sit back and enjoy the ride, it is going to be a bumpy one for you.

And ze germans wonder why we stick to our "own kind" ???

Also bashing expats, on an expat forum, probably not the smartest move ever.

wohoo everyone what the hell is going on here?
I was just saying that people who most obviously do NOT want to integrate should not even be here, especially not if they bitch about Germans or Germany all the time.
People are not forced to stay here if they don't like it!
btw keydeck I think you were one of the only people who was actually talking to me!

btw cabbage can't understand your opinion at all though!

There are people that are here because they have to be. Some people may be here for love (don't like the place just the person in it), others can't leave because they can't afford the airfare home etc

The reason I think you should bugger off with your expats should try harder crap is because alot of these people you are talking about probably do try. German classes are mighty expensive so I am one of the many who have been here two years and still speak almost no german. Even though I actually like the place I still get to bitch about it because that is part of the reason of why TT is here. So go ramble your we should all go home bollocks somewhere else.

Ditto exactly what cabbagefairy said!

You've gotten dirty looks for being from Munich? I doubt that... unless the TTers were trying to enjoy a German-free night out. Or maybe it was Germans from the north. I know my German neighbors here like me (an AMI!!!) better than they like Bavarians. Try living abroad being from Texas. Aside from the dirty looks, I can't count the number of times some idiot Germ has asked me if Bush is my neighbor or if I know him well or ... Yeah, I drove 16 hours (one-way) to visit him every month while we were kids. WTF?

By and large, I'd say it's probably mostly Germs designing, selling, and wearing Tracht. Don't blame the change in style on foreigners.

If you don't like moaning and bitching, don't come to TT. Everyone gripes about something. This is our place to join like-minded people in similar situations to discuss, gripe, vent, brag, praise ... life in a foreign (to us) country. I've sat in on German expats in the US while they moaned about something American. I am capable of understanding the difficulties and frustrations of living abroad. You don't seem to understand that. Too bad.

Now, go away.

InAction, you are telling expats to either become Germanized or get out of Germany, right?

Now, take a logical look at your train of thought and tell me who in the world would want to become the kind of person who says things like that.

Of course we will keep our national and personal traits while adopting certain customs from our host country that we like. And we are entitled to miss certain things from home and say that we don't understand other things here. Not to mention that German is one of the most difficult languages to learn, especially considering that neither the US nor the UK school system seem to be very keen on teaching grammar, the bones of any language. I am convinced that I have been in Germany longer than you have, I blend in perfectly down to the Dirndl compatible figure and Bavarian accent and I have still been called Ausländerin and told to leave the room. No frigging way that I want to be that kind of German. and that is the kind of German I avoid where possible.

You have done Germany a Bärendienst.

InAction...

I lived in Germany for 6 years. Worked, with Americans where we spoke English from 7 to 7. So, up at 5:30 and home by 8. So no, with the few hours I had to myself, I choose to speak ENGLISH with my German husband. He didn't mind, and yet you do

Of course I wish I had the time and energy to get past my survival German...but twas not the case.

Do people on here even get what I am trying to say??? I never said that people should become German! I only said that if people from abroad want to live here that I think they should at least try to learn the language! I am well aware that it isn't always easy to learn another language especially German! Some people though don't even make an attempt. I have met various different people from other countries who have been living here for only a short while who speak German very well. I guess some people are also more talented with languages in general than others. I still think people should try to learn the laguage of the country they live in. I have never said that everyone who doesn't want to become "German" should leave the country. I think people who are living here who complain about everything over here all the time and don't want to learn the language are not forced to stay here! They can leave if it is bothering them that much.
I have no problem whatsoever with people from other countries hanging out with their "own kind". But on TT is also a German-speaking Stammtisch where people meet up to speak some German and maybe improve their knowledge a little!
I know as well that Germans build their opinions on tabloids like "Bild Zeitung" and then walk around and ask every American "did you vote for Bush as well". I can only speak for myself and say that I don't ask people from the States who they voted for or if they voted at all because I simply don't care on their political opinions. I mean I can't really say much, "my country" voted for Angela Merkel and ended up with a Grand Coalition!
Again I have no problem with English-speaking hanging out with other English-speaking people but it doesn't hurt anyone to make an attempt to learn another language!
I can also understand if people miss certain things about home...but missing things from home or discussing about differenties is not necessarily the same as bitching and moaning about everything over here.
I am sure that everyone who posted back does actually speak some German if not even well German, hangs out with German people or has German workmates / friends! I am pretty sure that you guys don't bitch about everything in Germany constantly, seeing that some of you have been living here for a while.
I seems though that people misunderstood my post I hope this makes it a little clearer now!
BTW I never blamed foreigner for the fashion Dirndls at all, I only wanted to say that this is not actually "Tracht" anymore!

a German-Free night out! So I am not allowed to show up, although speaking English, because I am German? Sorry to say that but it seems kinda racist to me!

The way you're carrying on, I don't think you'd be welcome at any TT get-togethers.

You are obviously new to this forum.
Maybe you should take some time and read some of the threads to get a better idea of what TT is all about. We do bitch and moan. It's part of who we are.

My german is crap even though I live with my german bf, he refuses to speak german to me because he says english is easier.I refuse to pay hundred of euros to learn german.

And I still think it is you who doesn't get the point. People do try, you have to or how else do you expect to be able to do anything here? If you haven't noticed it takes german to even figure out what the heck you are buying in the grocery store (and what lovely stores they are too ) So just because the small amount of people you saw were enjoying a good time in english with other english speakers, you can't now decide if they don't speak to you it's not there. Read what I said before...not everyone can just leave! I was meant to go last year but my bf hasn't finished studying, shall I just pack up and run off home because things are hard here? No, I shall dam well stay on TT and bitch, moan and rant while I wait for him to finish.

Ah that feels better

I work in a German office, with Germans, speak German, dealt with the KVR and the Arbeitsamt, shop in Germany, watch German television, deal with Telekom in German, and pay German Taxes, I have a right (imo) to bitch and moan about life here if I want, and if I want a night off from my german coworkers and speak my mother tongue without political discussions from opinions learned from the onesided news and explaining that I have integrated here, then I fucking deserve it. I met a german women at the TTFriday Beergarden, she was so fucking annoying, she is one of the reasons I choose not to go anymore... maybe you are her, maybe not, but I don't want to be used for English practice or be told that by reading TT I am not integrating into German life.

ps- maybe the mods can separate this from the mainthread, its gone way off topic.

I guess you don't really get the point. I was saying that people should try to learn some German and I know a few people who have never learned German ever before and been here for half a year and speak pretty good German. It doesn't matter if people make grammar mistakes or they speak with an accent or don't know a few words. If your bf doesn't wanna talk German to you that's okay but there are other people out there who do and there is a German-speaking Stammtisch as well which costs nothing at all to only name a few things. I don't mind if people talk about differenties from their country in comparison to Germany or moan occasionaly about train-strikes or whatever but I have met quite a few people who always moan and bitch about something over here so I think to myself if it's really that dreadful over here why do they stay??? I have even heard from people "ugh there are so many Germans over here"! I am not generalising, I know that there are a lot of nice people out there who don't speak a lot of German but they at least try!
And going to TT meet-up talking to people and then getting looked at in a weird way because I am German is not really nice! You are in friggin Germany!

Hi Carm
AGAIN I have no problem if people wanna go out and speak their mothers tongue. I think you misunderstood what I said! To me you ARE integrated! You are capable of dealing with institutions like the KVR Telekom or whatever. You talk to your German colleauges and probably some other people! If you feel like going for a dinner or a few beers with an English-speaking crowd why not go. This is NOT what I meant.

FFS you just don't get it do you. We are well aware of where we are, we get people like you all the time going on and on and on about how we should speak better german, or how we should intergrate more, or how we should wait at the green man

I doubt the looks were because you were german, maybe you had something on your face? Or maybe you were already in the 'oh this is just wrongwrongwrong to do in my wonderful country' mindset that you were the one that started of the nasty look game?

And for the last time...not...everyone...can...leave. It's not as easy as you may think to just pack up your entire life and move overseas. When people move here, their lives at home do not go on standby. This is it baby, for better or worse and people like you aren't helpful.

Edit: I don't go out with german collegues as I have none, Germany won't give me a work permit. I also don't take german classes, they are overpriced for what they are. The only germans I socialise with are my bf and his friends, who I am myself only just getting to talk to after a year of knowing. I did have one other german friend who then called me a thief so I don't particually fancy her anymore. I think I may be exactly the type of person you are talking about, and if you want to go and make life in germany easy peasy and with nothing to complain about I would love you too.

I'm sure Carm will be delighted to know that she has earned your permission.

I think InAction is making a fair point tbh

There are lots of people here who lean on other people to do everything for them cos they couldn't be bothered to learn a few basic phrases or at least try and understand the way society here works.

I don't think IA is advocating that we should all integrate totally and they maybe framed their response a little badly but i somewhat agree with the sentiments.

@bluedave - Good lord, man, don't get in the way of the rampaging villagers. Lock your door, shutter your windows, and in a few hours the streets will be quiet and the scary opinions of one individual will be but a distant memory.

It's the noise they make with their pitchforks scraping against the cobbles and the light pollution from all those burning torches that bugs me JJ.

It's also an intercultural thing here; Germans aren't exactly the world's greatest diplomats, so their opinions tend to come across as rather brusque, as is the case here. I think that InAction has a couple of valid points, but has taken a bit of a bull-in-a-china-shop approach to presenting them.

Personally I'm not convinced by this, it's easy enough to practise it without having to go to lessons. I'd say my German has gotten much better as a result of practising (though still shit) over the 7 months or so that I've been back here and I've not spent a cent on lessons.

And also, I'm not convinced that it's one of the hardest languages to learn. English is pretty much a complete mess of a language anyway and the German language is very very much typically German in that it's largely just functional, straightforward and follows rather rigid rules. Bavarian though, that's another story.

InAction's probably gone a bit too overboard, but like bluedave said some of her points are pretty valid.

You need to have a certain standard of german already before you can practice alone. Books can teach alot but they are also really boring. Who wants to spend hours a day learning german anyway? My german is ok but I prefer to learn as I go along than force it all in like it's a test.

Bavarian is great fun! My bfs family speaks it and I have a hell of a time practicing on him at home, for some reason he tells me it just sounds wrong with a kiwi accent...don't understand why?

Agree with bluedave. IA makes some good points, just phrases them incredibly badly.

I do think you can (if you want to <-- important!) learn German without spending hundreds of euros on language lessons, especially when you are living in Germany. And if I do remember correctly there have been man occasions even here on TT where someone complained that they were screwed over signing a contract they didn't understand (so they were not really screwed over, they just didn't read the contract beforehand) or similar situations where someone expected business A or store B to be able to explain everything perfectly in English, and a lot of times people (expats on TT, not just the Germans) would say, well learn some German, you are living in Germany, you cannot expect everyone to speak your language while you do not even try to learn the language of the country you are living in!

As for the bitching, gosh, everyone does it. I can see how TT topics make it seem like it's all TTers ever do, and that they must be very very miserable living here, but I understand (now, maybe I didn't always as it sure takes some getting used to), that maybe the forum is an outlet for them to whine about something when they know others will agree with them, but that does not mean they hate Germany or whatever. And which German has not ever moaned about the Telekom? Just because someone is an expat doesn't mean they do not have the right to criticize what bothers them in the country they live in!

And about wearing Tracht, well, if someone wants to combine a dirndl with flip flops, it's their right to do that. You might roll your eyes and vomit on the inside, but they can do it anyway... if you care so much about upholding tradition, you need to do it, do not expect expats or non-Bavarians to uphold the Bavarian traditions because it matters to you. My roommate here (a Catalan) told me, "I really hate how all these foreigners come here to learn Spanish and then destroy our Catalan culture." I am not sure if she realized I am precisely one of those foreigners who came here to Catalunya to learn not Catalan but Spanish (how dare I?!), but I was just thinking, you know, no foreigner is destroying your tradition. No one is stopping you from practicing your culture, so don't blame foreigners that your culture is vanishing, it is not my job to uphold your culture, I respect it as long as I am being respected but it is your job to make sure it doesn't die. That is xenophobic bullshit, same as "the foreigners are taking away my job".

And I will not deny that there hasn't been a person or two on TT where I just thought, my God what are you still doing in Germany if you hate it so much, but in the end, ya know, it's them who are miserable, not you, not me ... Some people may actually enjoy being miserable, ya know.
And a lot, I find, is what you make of it. Some people may already come to Germany thinking, "I'll hate it here" and most likely they will. If you move to a country with a positive attitude and an open mind, and do not crawl back into your shell as soon as someone acts differently from what you are used to in your home country, chances are much better you'll enjoy living here.

Racist?! Precisely in the same way a "girls-night-out" is sexist. Ladies want to get together without their husbands/boyfriends... to gripe about said husbands/boyfriends. This doesn't mean they hate them, just that the women would like some time (as stated before) with like-minded people to bitch about those things unique to or annoying about the opposite sex. When someone's husband shows up to the event, he may feel a bit unwelcome.

In both cases, it's inevitable that some good qualities of the excluded parties are mentioned also. I'm sure if you look, you'll find plenty of positive comments about Germans and Germany. Obviously, those who have the choice to stay stay because they LIKE it MORE than where they were.

And don't forget that there are plenty of Germans on the Deutsche in London forums whingeing about aspects of Britain or asking where they can find Bitburger. That doesn't mean they hate Britain though. I personally much prefer living in Germany to Britain, but I reserve the right to moan about the aspects I don't like, like Deutsche Post or the traffic-light phasing for pedestrians. In fact, it's precisely because I find life better here that I find the things that are wrong all the more whinge-worthy.

To be honest mate, no one likes bloody Deutsche Post, the mail stealing bastards.

okay okay people you guys got a point there. I have to say I didn't really express myself nicely...I guess that's got something to do with me being German and being a little straightforward.
I can totally understand if people who live here complain about the usual stuff like publib transport being delayed or train strikes or telekom or one of the things that are better in other countries. What I was actually trying to say was that people who move to another country should at least try to learn the language of the country of their residence!
I often heard phrases like "oh this is better back home and that is better and so on" which does give the impression that people don't actually like to stay here but still do and that really bugs me.
A very good friend of mine is from Croatia and has to go back there because they won't extend her residence permit although she has a job and an apartment and speaks almost perfect German. She feels pretty gutted about leaving as she loves it here!
It was never my intention to offend anyone, neither did I want to say that people should leave if they can't speak German! I only find it fair if people try to learn some German. If I would go to an English-speaking country I would have to be able to speak at least some of the language as well to even get a job there.
To come to the actual Dirndl and Lederhosen topic...I don't know if you really read what I wrote but I said I don't care if people from abroad wear Dirndl or Lederhosen. I just said that the 50 Euro Dirdnl they are selling in shops these days are not actually Tracht by definition.

Umm, no, I am German too, there is a being straightforward and there is what you did.

And you know, some things may actually be better "back home". Because not everything is great in Germany. Not everything is great in the UK. And not everything is great in the US. Or in Spain for that matter. Some things may be better here, some things better there. Does not mean one wants to move "back home" or that one hates Germany (or the UK, US, Spain etc.).

So that means that even though my English is pretty good and my boyfriend as previously mentioned is English does that then mean that I'm excluded simply because I was born here? To me, that sounds a little unfair.

@ RL - I have learned four languages from scratch: Bavarian, German, Latin, French (in that order), afterwards Italian, some Russian and ancient Greek as well as Spanish. German was by far the hardest and I didn't really get a grasp on it until I took up Latin and grammar and cases and conjugations and declinations and all that awesome fundamental basic crap. Ok, Russian and Greek were difficult as they have no common ancestry with Romanic languages as well as two frigging different alphabets (three counting ancient and modern Greek), but German is not very logical and I repeat: German is one of the hardest languages to learn from scratch. Basta.
InAction, I am really inerested in meeting up with you, seriously. I don't know what kind of people from this forum you have met before (and count yourself lucky for meeting Keydeck) but we could have a good talk together. Come take me be the hand, I'll lead you through the pubs of Munich, I'll show you people who make you understand.

No that I was to start off with as you might have read in the previous post.

That may be the case sometimes. Just as being born with an extra appendage between your legs would exclude you from a "girls-night-out". Those particular women won't always exclude the men, just when they want a girls-night-out. On other occassions, they'll welcome the guys with open arms. TTers won't always bitch about Germans, but there are times when that's exactly what they want to do. They don't want a German interfering to "correct" opinions or defend German heritage/government... They just want to let off steam.

You are not, by default, excluded from TT events because you are German. But you can't expect TTers to love you for showing up or for their frustrations with the country to magically dissappear when you walk in the door.

With that said, maybe you should go to another event. This time, expect to have your ways attacked, but remind yourself that it's just our frustration, not hate.

A friend of mine dates a German guy. Everytime we get together ang gripe about stuff, he gets a bit down until we remind him of just that. We're frustrated, but we're still here because we like it. We try not to be so negative when he's around, but sometimes we just have to let off steam here and now. By the way, that also means that, to spare him the negativity, we exclude him simply because he was born here.

or legs.

InAction makes some very valid points.

Did you just call German functional and straightforward? And you say it follows rigid rules? Good joke.
Or were you being serious?

German grammar is full of exceptions and special cases, just like English.

Out of the languages I have learned and can still speak, Russian probably has the most regular grammar. Not that that makes it an easy language.

Apart from the tone, I also agree with what InAction has said in a lot of the points. I get sick of other foreignors who only go on about what they hate in Germany. I didn't really have the feeling she was getting at the natural rantings an ravings we all have, even though realy a lot of us love it here.

And I do agree about the language thing too; it' not about being perfect, but about making the effort one can. I didn't feel she was making a real dig at people for not achieving perfection.

And finally, sarabyrd, shoot me down if you will , but I found German easy. This is not to say it is easy for someone coming here as an adult, maybe working, busy, in a social structure etc. But as a language per se; I had the "easy" way; I learnt it at school and studied it before coming here, which is a focussed environment. also learnt French, Spanish and Italian. And I personally would say German was the easiest. Maybe it's just the way my mind works?

Yes, it is just the way your mind works, I found Spanish a lot easier to learn than German.

Last week I took a German friend and there was a German woman there , possibly more. Everybody was made to feel very welcome and mixed. I also find this a little difficult to believe.

I cannot speak for how easy it may or may not be to learn German, though most people I knew who learned it as a foreign language found it pretty hard, and (seems the most common comparison) a lot harder than Spanish. But I do think if you have a thing for languages, and have experience with learning them, like you ruapehu (or me too), learning some things is very easy because they are the same or at least very similar in most Indoeuropean languages. Like sarabyrd said, knowing all that fundamental basic crap (through Latin) does help a lot, and oh how I loathed Latin. But it helps a lot.
My sister did not really pay a lot of attention in school and essentially knows no English. She told me, what she did for her exam (for an English class she recently took) was to memorize all sentences. Of course like that you cannot get very far, because there is only so much you can memorize. If you cannot apply grammar you'll never be very good at speaking a language. And if you have never learned how to do that for a foreign language, it will be incredibly hard, no matter which language you are trying to learn.

from scratch = without former knowledge
You, being a fellow cunning linguist, found German easy.

I suppose 'Inaction' has a point but then again at the end of day , if you are working here earing a fortune, living the life and watching sky tv and drinking barrels of beer in irish pubs who gives a carlsberg XXXX about Germans or Germany. Its just a means to an end. Any country in the world has it expats earning loads , living like kings and couldnt give a toss about learing the local language.

Its globalisation man. I think the days of learing a language and intgegrating are gone. I take O2 as an example , hundres of foreigners there and you could count on one hand the number who speak German !!! Sure they miss something not learing the lingo but at end of day the old days are gone. If the money is right people will work anywhere regardless of integration or language or meeting the locals !! Not saying its right, but its the way it is .

The reaction when an Asian comes to the UK and 'doesn't learn the language' seems somewhat different though.

Until someone can logically explain why a young girl is an "it" in German, then I'll continue to keep getting my der die das all mixed up and refuse to believe that there's any logic in the language. A boy is "der", a man is also "der" and a woman is a "die" so it drives me up the friggin wall that a girl is "das".

And then there's stuff like "butter" which is "die" in hochD but "der" in Swabian. Aaarrrgggghhhhh!

When I first arrived in a German speaking part of Switzerland, the first sentence I learned and memorized was "Please excuse me, but my German is horrible and I'm just starting to learn it". Like a parrot I would start any interaction with that sentence, and then switch to English with lots of pointing and hand signs. Most folks were extremely patient and understanding and helpful.

As I started learning and attempting to use more German, the most common attitude expressed by folks was that I shouldn't apologise, I'm doing fine, keep it up, and the kicker phrase something like "I know some Turks who have lived here 40 years and still don't have any German and you've already got more than they do."

Perhaps that last sentiment is what the OP was trying to express? The point, perhaps, isn't how good (or bad) your German is, but just the fact that you are making an effort to learn and use it.

I'm personally >5 years in Germany. After a Goethe Institut cram course, I took a job with a german company. After working my ass off trying to learn the local lingo despite the official language of the company being English, I was recently told at work recently to stop speaking German because people thought my grammar was so terrible it was undermining my authority!

I then boycotted German for a few months, strapped a second satellite dish to the mast to get british programming (a step I in retrospect should have taken years ago), but now I'm back on the horse ... simply because if you don't it gives the locals too much smug superiority to think that all foreigners can't learn their "secret handshake club" language. If toothless german morons can manage it, so can I.

I touched a nerve with my (German) wife's mother the other evening when she got a bit pissed off that my (fully-bilingual) children were speaking English with each other ... I said "right now, Germany has 82 million people slated to be cut in half in the next 40 years; there are more people in China learning English right now than speak it fluently worldwide; analogously, should I make my kids drop C++ training and program henceforth in Pascal, COBOL or some other dead language because the local hardware hasn't kept pace with world standards?" She got really angry ... but acknowledged my point.

I hope c++ isn't the language of choice over the next 40 years but a fair analogy.

InAction... don't you have anything more interesting to do!!

Anyway just wanted to point out that you mentioned RACISM, what you meant was probably XENOPHOBIA.
A bit out of topic but people tend to mix up these two words. They do not have the same meaning.