The smoking ban in Germany is simply pathetic

It is a fact though that these days peoples kids in restaurants can be fucking annoying. I dont smoke anymore really but someone lighting up after a meal is much much much less annoying than someone elses child screeching and running around.

so, to anyone reading this who likes taking their kids to restaurants:

people arn't interested in your children.

either
a ) teach them to shut the fuck up

or
B ) get a baby sitter

*end rant

Actually I find the under 30s even more annoying than screaming kids or smoke. Please before bringing an under 30 to a restaurant make sure he/she's learnt how to behave in a civilized society.

worm, I actually think kids should be taken to restaurants and other social settings MORE than is the case in Germany. I think German kids tend to be worse behaved than, say, French or Italian kids because they simply aren't used to behaving appropriately. Also people here tend to be less tolerant of kids which puts extra stress on parents and makes the whole situation worse.

And at least screaming kids don't give you lung cancer.

Not sure I agree with that last comment. What's worse... a slight chance of cancer because of passive smoke in 20,30 or 40 years... or an immediate migraine with nausea. Do I have to choose between the two? Think I'll just stay home instead.

The social trend away from smoking was on its way.
Everyone could see it.
Except of course the politicians who had the need to be seen to be "doing" something whereas to try and establish some kind of relevence and authority.

But specificly though, what SHOULD bars have done in Germany?
What should the bars in Ireland and UK have done that are now closed?

Bet you 10 quid they would if you crumbled them up into a massive rizla and smoked them.

Apart from the customers of your establishment and others like it apparently who still insist on puffing away ...


Followed the law for the appropriate region that they are based in? You are expecting society to support a 'community' where the 'community' (customers and business owners) itself is in disarray.


Had a better business model to start with? Used the 18 months notice to implement it? Stop blaming the smoking ban for their long standing bad business practice? Stop believing that since they provide a 'vital contribution to the local community' normal business practice does not adhere to them?

OK then, given that they don't provide a "Vital contribution to the local community", doesn't that indicate that there is no need for anyone to visit a bar? Ergo they should be able to decide for themselves whether smoking is allowed or not and those people who don't like it, just don't go.

Nope - all buildings and enclosed spaces that are open to the public should be smoke free. Quite simple really.

Next on the list is people peeing in swimming pools.

That's where my kids get their revenge on the smokers.

This was tried once, some stuff that turned red in the presence of urin, they stopped it after a while because it was too embarrassing

In your opinion...

I think the implementation of the smoking ban involves slightly more than just my opinion.

But it would be great if it did.

What about the bars that are surviving - how are they managing to do it?

From what I could see at home (Ireland), the bars that closed "because of the smoking ban" were the bars that were badly managed.

Applied to the National Trust to be taken over as 'historic artifacts' as a tribute the working class of years gone by?

That was probably the smokers then ... or vacationing members of the NRA ... right to arm bears anyone?

Please do tell how they didn't bring in the ban properly in England??

Not just his, mine too.

My bad - thought they had gone ahead with the smoking allowed in non-food serving pubs seems they realised that would be a silly idea. It really does have to be a case of all workplaces or it is a waste of time.

Is the german ban going to include all workplaces does anyone know?

urban myth. some people will believe anything

Shhhh! Don't tell people that, it's a good urban legend to keep alive.

We were at the Frühlingsfest in Munich yesterday. I had forgotten just how the smoky atmosphere hits you in the face and eyes (mine are still irritated) along with the warmth, the aroma of roasted chicken and the babble of voices. After three months of clean air I can hardly wait for the smoking ban in the tents.

Your concern for maintaining the post 1945 politcal consensus in Bayern is most admirable, but since most people on Toytown are unable to vote on a federal level perhaps you would be better placed campaigning for the CSU on a German speaking forum?

I wouldn't want you to think that your lack of direct action made you personally responsible for even a reduction of CSU votes in the state elections. Good luck with the campaign.

Monkstown as a CSU-member. Best laugh I had today.

Are you saying that he is not part of the establishment?

He seems to be terribly keen on keeping things just as they are.

Amen.

I think it is time to not smoke in public any more. It really is a pain in the a$$ for nonsmokers, there are more nons than smokers, and it is just unhealthy.

It seems pretty logical.

btw, went to Munich (from Vienna) a few weeks ago and the smokeless experience was glorious. Went to a jazz bar and didn't have to peel the clothes off and hang them on the balcony afterwards. And who knows? Mazbe that jazz bar owner will live a few more years. It is just great to not have to breathe smoke. Well done.

btw2, from a tourist perspective, the mingling of smoking clients outside of almost every establishment had a very magnetic draw and made us really check out the places. Munich seemed like a big partz because of that. So maybe the smoking groups outside of pubs, etc. has a significant marketing effect.

Thanks for not smoking (albeit it not being your choice), this is really appreciated.

Here in British Columbia, we banned indoor smoking 5+ years ago and most places have adjusted well after the first year.

I was amazed when I first came over in October that people still smoked in restaurants and in some of the little places, the wall of blue-grey fog when you walked in the door. It's also not nice to taste stale smoke when you want to eat a nice meal. As for nightclubs, I certainly don't miss getting cigarette burns in my clothing from people dancing with a cig in their hand.

I think the ban is great. I think there should be provision in it for smokers restaurants- IE ifyou want to have a special permit for a destination restaurant for smokers with higher powered ventilation, etc. and make it clear when you go there that this is an establishment for smokers. That way they have places to go and smoke, but as a general rule, non smoking is nicer.

The KVR now says there are 700 smoking clubs in Munich, the law is not working in Munich as it was intended and they can't do anything about it.
They have asked to take Bavaria for action, but they have declined to do so:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/artikel/761/169269/

I love sucking on a fag when I'm out having a beer, but that said, the smoking ban don't bother me atall.

They could refuse to let the clubs operate like pubs and have reduced opening hours.

Bavaria has 23 hour opening now and it would require new legislation to change that.
How many politicians in Bavaria are going to vote change the liscencing law to restrict the hours of pubs that operate as Geshlossene Gesellschaften?


Yep, agree 100%. But the nons weren't going into the pubs to make up for the business lost when the smokers stayed away.
I'm not having a go at individuals, but people who complained about smoking in small pubs, didn't put their money where their mouth was.

do you mean that you're not bothered about the smoking ban because you're too busy sucking fags?

I find it so hard to understand that they couldn't foresee the private-club loophole. The Brits considered it and included them in the ban for precisely this reason. It's just unbelievable how amateurish this law is. I am still reduced to tears at the stupidity of forcing smokers outside for the first time in their lives on an evening when it's -12°C outside.

I've lost all understanding of why anyone is still talking about this shit.
Cannot smoke in pubs. There we go, non-smokers happy.
Can say that your pub is actually a club - where people smoke. Smokers happy, non-smokers need not apply.

Bish bash bosh, job done son. Can't please everyone? Bollocks, you blatantly can, just do the above.

I smoke cigarettes - I have to, or otherwise my lungs would not be nice and leatherly, and I'd not be able to smoke massive joints without coughing - so I think of smoking cigs a bit like Fitness-Studio, you know, preparation work, training. If I have to go outisde into the cold early morning air to smoke, because I'm in a no smoking bar, I just see myself as Rocky Balboa, from Rocky, running through the neighborhood in the cold morning air, before being followed by a small group of children like a pervy pied piper.

Actually, that all sounds weird now I read it back. Oh well, who cares. Still makes more sense that half of you idiots do.

Maybe cos it was a stupid law from start to finish and badly thought out?
As we errrrmmmm... said from the beginning!

But isn't that just for public bars? I was told by a bar owner that the smoking clubs due to their membership requirement no longer fall under the blanket laws for pubs.
If thats the case then I think the KVR should make these places decide whether they want ti be bars or really private clubs with a different set of rules and opening times.

No, they are bars operating on a standard 23 hour licence.
Just because they are that evening (cough) operating as a private function, they don't fall under the smoking ban.

The KVR's hands are tied without legislation (see SZ link) and the Bavarian politicians are scared as they know they are in a corner, they've painted themselves into.

No the inability to abide by the current legislation some pub visiting residents of Bayern is stupid. The law has worked in other countries with far less hysterics. Quoting a figure of 700 'Smoking Clubs' in Munich or whereever (too lazy to look back) only adds weight to the OP's point of view. The fact that the local politicians are allegedly also taking a hammering for this is also simply embarressing. It is not the laws that are pathetic but sadly the interpretation of them.

The fact that you gleefully seem to revel in this situation is also quite sad.

I for one am not gleefully revelling in this situation, since I fully support a smoking ban. But there is no denying that the politicians have completely fucked it up. Undermining your own legislation by repealing parts of it (smoking at Oktoberfest) is amateurish. Introducing the ban in the depths of winter was outright stupid. And allowing smoking at private events should have screamed "loophole", but the politicians were in too much of a hurry to pass the legislation to notice. The smoking clubs exist not only because the law was full of holes, but because the legislation expressly permits them.

The City of Munich KVR, who are not known as the most flexible of institutions claim in the report above that apert from a few minor infringements, the law is being applied in Munich.
It might not be the spirit of the law that most bars round here are still smoking, but it is the letter of the law.

Whether the law is loosened, tightenend or stays the same reamins to be seen...

The "patheticness" is not particular to Germany. The issues is the same in Ireland and the UK: BANNNING smoking in small pubs at the lower end of the market that rely on beer sales is a contributory factor to the decline of the traditional local.

Well, looking at the headlines of todays papers it looks like the KVR is getting ready to ban "Smoking clubs".
Perhaps the KVR was reading this thread.

The KVR does not make the law and can thus not ban smoking clubs. They are merely the enforcement agency.

I wasn't sure about this (since I don't live in the UK anymore ... ) so I went ahead and called the 'regular lower income clientele' to see what they thought.

They said that they weren't sure what you meant by 'the decline of the traditional local' in the context of 'the lower end of the market'

By 'traditional local' do you mean the friendly pub by the town square that could do with a lick of paint but has an excellent landlord and has been round for donkeys years or do you mean that concrete eyesore in the precinct with the landlord with the drink problem and the rottweiler?




Oh 'the regular lower income clientele' would like to thank you for your concern but they said that they were getting a bit sick of these 'do-gooders' telling them that they should be sticking with tradition and only socialising in nasty cheapo venues. Apparently they've got seats for 'Cats' and have managed to get a table at the 'Ivy' for granny's eightieth. Things have moved on from the day were a Bank Holiday trip to Margate or Southend are all you could wish for.

But the KVR works for/with the city. If the city decides to ban the smoking clubs, then the KVR will enforce the law.
Grab a copy of one of todays papers and have a read.

Was back in England recently down in Warminster which is in a rural area in Wiltshire. Asked pretty much in every pub I went to what they thought about the smoking ban and except for one pub that was always a non smoking pub, every other one complained about lost trade.

I also noticed a couple of pubs had closed and according to several people I spoke to they all said that the pubs are a lot emptier these days.

It doesn't seem to have made too much difference in London but outside in smaller towns and villages it does appear to be having an impact.

Yes, but the smoking ban is only one problem faced by landlords. Continually-rising duty (a massive 4p this year alone), rising beer prices due to grain and hop shortages, and supermarkets selling booze at below cost-price are all encouraging drinkers to stay at home. Meanwhile, continually-rising property prices (well, until a few months ago) make it increasingly tempting for landlords to give up and sell the property as a private dwelling, assuming he can get planning permission to do so.

OK, that would work. Maybe I was just being pedantic about your post which states that the KVR will be doing the banning


In any case, I can't see it happening at the moment. They just relaxed the laws somewhat, so why would they turn around and ban smoking clubs? Worse would be if they forced bars to shut at 2am because of the ban - which was also discussed recently...

Less pubs cant be a bad thing. Theres far too many in UK as it is. Less boozing, less binge drinking, more healthy all round!

The number of pubs has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the amount of alcohol being consumed – something that Alastair Darling forgot when he stunned the industry by whacking on 4 pence of duty onto beer. It is better to have people drinking in pubs, where they can be watched over by the landlord, their peers and the police, than buying booze in the supermarket and getting wasted at home or in the park. The British pub is a unique institution and it is utterly depressing to watch New Labour destroy it.

You will presumably be pleased to learn that 57 pubs close down for good every month in the UK.

You seem to be arguing that the current legislation is badly thought out and implimented and are now saying that further measures will not be taken because the german legislative machinary is so good ...