Jewish community complaint alters Fasching parades

After a long period of non-eventism the Munich Fasching parade staged by the Fasching society Damische Ritter has become more and more popular in the last few years. Its traditional route is from Hofgarten via Odeonsplatz to Karolinenplatz, down Briennerstrasse and finishing up at the Löwenbräukeller at Stiglmaierplatz where everyone has a big party, smokes outside and gets drunk. This year, however, the chosen date coincides with the international Holocaust Memorial Day on 27 January. The Jewish community has protested against the parade passing the memorial at Platz der Opfer des Nationalsozialismus at the junction of Briennerstrasse and Maximiliansplatz.

The members of the planning committee and the municipal offices involved in the approval of the parade hadn’t realized that the chosen date, forced on the society by this year’s extremely short Fasching season, was also one of the most sombre days of the year for various groups, most of all the Jewish community. The Munich Jewish Community itself didn’t react until alarmed by Josef Schuster, head of the Bavarian Jewish Community, who had noticed that the parade in Regensburg was planned for the same day.

The Damische Ritter immediately reacted to the alert and are re-routing the parade - pending the city's approval - to march north on Ludwigstrasse, turn west on Theresienstrasse and south again on Barerstrasse, thus reaching Karolinenplatz. This route is, of course, longer than the original one and will cost the society more in free candy and treats for the crowd.

Charlotte Knobloch, president of the German Jewish Community, calls the disregard with which some groups treat a national day of commemoration “frightening� and hopes that City Hall will find a route sparing the Holocaust Memorial.

But Munich got off easy: The parade in Regensburg had to be cancelled completely.

Question: Am I allowed to have a birthday party in public on U.S. Memorial Day? After all, all those dead Civil War soldiers and their descendants and relatives might feel offended.

Source: Süddeutsche Zeitung e-paper 18 January 2008

In a non-offense causing manner unlikely to endanger public health


But only in moderation and under medical supervision.

Jesus, there are some killjoys amongst us aren't there. Move on people, life is continuing without you...

Jewish community leaders in dyslexic fasching/facist mixup embarrassment.

To be fair , I'm all for moving on from the past , but the sight of a couple of thousand celebrating shit-faced Germans on the Jewish day of commemoration , especially close to their monument could be a little much.
Doesnt cost much to be , at least a little sensitive.

@SB: You wouldn't really have your party at the mall in Washington at one of the memorials dressed up as a clown, pirate or cowboy singing songs of joy and throwing candies and stuff all over the place with a couple of thousand others people, wouldn't you?

Update: It has been re-scheduled for 3 February.
@ Helterskelter - After lighting some candles and sticking some Stars & Stripes in the grass with my guests and remembering just what the Civil War means for the U.S. I would have no problems throwing a big party right then and there, no.

Dressed up in costumes, with motorized wagons and carts, singing songs, being pissed, throwing candies on the very memorial day... you may have a picknick with a couple of friends but if you'ld turn up like that Fasching bunch, you'ld most likely be arrested on the spot!

I find the term 'block' in the headline a bit melodramatic. as soon as the faschings people recognised their mistake, they were happy to reroute the parades. the parades still take place, just different route.

The Jewish Community has effectively blocked them from taking place on the date or along the route planned for the last several months. Topic titles are a question of combining information and available space and can be edited.

Can't find the article on SZ...

E-paper only, sorry.

Curious what the reaction would be if a Jewish group were asked to do the same in reverse?

Why has the Regensburg festival been cancelled completely?

There will be a public event in Regensburg on 27 January including speeches at the Ghetto Memorial. Having a Fasching parade at the same time in the vicinity would be grotesque.

Which seems fair enough.

So bit of a non story. Two groups of people who've come together and negotiated a good compromise for all.

I, for one, find it absolutely understandable that some people feel like this. I mean, regarding and respecting the feelings of other people, even if they themselves have none such feelings for any commemoration day that doesn't affect them personally (i.e. US memorial day, if they have no members of family who have died in service for the US armed forces), violates their right to party whenever and wherever they want.

Seriously, I mean weigh the circumstances here - who cares about a bunch of old Yids who are long dead and forgotten now, compared with partying on the streets where and when we want to? I mean, the audacity. Aren't we living in a free country? It's the principle that matters here. First they tell us not to party on some cockamamie memorial day, next they'll tell us not to piss on their memorials too. Remember, this is the day freedom died.

How many Brits/Americans/Australians/etc. are upset that German Fasching starts with big outside parties on Armistice Day? We've discussed this before. Days mean different things in different countries and we ex-pats are told to accept it. I think that the same applies in this case.

30 odd years of watching Northern Ireland , the worst bit being walking though Manchester two days after the IRA exploded one of their largest bombs, tells me compromises rather than confrontation is the only way forward.

Well said!

The memorial itself (i.e. the one pictured) is a joke - hidden away, easily forgotten. The real shame here is that the parade organizers didn't know that January 27th was Holocaust Memorial Day. Maybe if the city memorial was actually visible in the first place we wouldn't be in this mess. Time for a long overdue rethinking of the Holocaust Memorial methinks.

Charley Garlic of the Munich Jewish Comittee in any chance to get her name in the paper shocker!

That she's hitching on this is true (and an obvious lay-up for anyone who's familiar with her M.O.), but has no bearing on the real issue.

Call a spade a spade, Monky hon, she is president of the German Jewish Community, not just Munich any more.

Says the man who classifies all Sinn Fein supporters as child molesters ah but I forgot he is all for moving on from the past so that means he does not generalise all catholic priests as child molesters as well, being the good catholic that he is. Don't worry parnell (shame on you you steriod fuck for choosing that name; he was a fuck but not a droggie) i am coming back to you on slagging us lower class big time...

Keydeck in reprehensible racist remark.


I suppose you think she should have waited for a scourge of Jews such as some of the anti-Semites on Toytown to raise the issue, eh?

BTW, I am an afficionado of Fasching and normally attend this parade.

Would that be the same anti semites who have pushed within the LGBT community to have some sort of recognition within the CSD Parade
(Munich's largest regular event after the Wies'n) of the victims of fascism in Germany that should this year come to fruition?

Although not the only ones, European Jews were in brutal number terms, the largest group that perished in the Holocaust.
Europe, including Germany as we have seen in the last couple of weeks, still has issues with racism and xenophobia, including anti-Semitism.

But Charley Garlic & Co DON'T have the moral right to play to the gallery every time she fancies getting invited to the Rathaus for a "free" lunch that I have to pay for.

I have a question: Why is it only a few of the more extremely mind-buggered jews that have brought this up? I don't hear the relatives of the gypsies, or the slavs, or the gays, or the political opponents or the relatives of all the millions of ordinary Germans who suffered in the concentration camps going on and on and on and bloody on about this lightyears after it fuckin' happened. If we're commemoration Holocaustâ„¢ Day we should damn well also set days aside for rememberance of the Amalekites and the Midianites. This ain't a fuckin' monopoly is it?

Sin, I have a question too - you seem to think that the accidental deaths of a group of 23 athletes warrants a memorial 50 years after it happened. Why do you have such a problem with people wishing to have one day to mark the calculated murder of six million of their people just over 60 years ago?

She does not have only the moral right but also the obligation to open her mouth in such cases being her the President of the German Jewish Community. I wonder why it bothers you that much.

As far as I understand this was brought up by the President of the German Jewish Community. Could you elaborate your thought?

This is probably a stupid question. But which came first--The Fasching parades, or the Holocaust memorial date? I know Fasching parades have been going on forever. Holocaust memorials as far as I know havent. Don't mean to sound unfeeling, but would they cancel Mardi Gras if it coincided with the same?

That is a (unintended) falacy. The objection were not the Fasching parades, but one passing by the Holocaust memorial site choosing the Holocaust memorial date. Rerouting or redating made everybody happy. Well, almost... I see it upsets a few .

I'ld feel awkward and personally insulted if some drunken clowns, cowboys, princesses and monkeys would be singing ad dancing on the memorial, plus it's easy to reroute. But then I also just can't stand Fasching/Karneval...

"smear first, think later", accusations of anti-Semitism on Toytown shocker!

There was a clash of dates / locations.
It was not appropriate.
It was sorted.


Who and where on here objected to the re-routing of the parade?
It's a particuarly tight Karneval season this year becasue of how the calendar is - or is the way moon rises and sets an anti-Semitic conspiracy now?

Not the re-routing but the original complaint in itself, which got your very acid reaction.

Sin, perhaps you need to realize not only the larger significance of The Holocaust but also the fact that Jews were Hitler's primary targets. Frankly, I wonder how much your views have been shaped by the notorious anti-Jewish leanings of many people in your native England (although admittedly England is far from even the worst European country in this regard, much less the entire world).

To remember The Holocaust is to remember a lesson learned by many, but far from all. Perhaps if you had witnessed the aftermath of the brutal genocide in the former Yugoslavia and talked to some of its innocent victims you would have a greater appreciation of the vital necessity of the words "never forget".

Eh?
I object to media selbstdarsteller Charley Garlic whipping up accusations of latent anti-Semistism to get herself in the paper.
Lets have a look at how the story went:

Quote from the OP:
----------------------------------------
The Munich Jewish Community itself didn’t react until alarmed by Josef Schuster...

The Damische Ritter immediately reacted to the alert and are re-routing the parade - pending the city's approval -

Charlotte Knobloch, president of the German Jewish Community, calls the disregard with which some groups treat a national day of commemoration “frightening� and hopes that City Hall will find a route sparing the Holocaust Memorial.
---------------------------------------

The Karneval club immediately made a re-reoute proposal.
They, alongside Munich's Jewish Community itself hadn't noticed the innaproriate clash.
So isn't it also a bit "frightening" that the official representation of Munich's Jews hadn't noticed themselves?

Of COURSE Munich City Council is going to approve a parade route that avoids the memorial on that day.

I think re-routing the parade is 100% correct for ALL the victims of 12 years of fascist horror in Germany.

Eh? "What bank do you use Gerry , the Northern Bank ?" , wrong thread pal ... I've never met an honest/decent Sinn Fein supporter in my life , how could they be when Sinn Fein are no more than career criminals hiding beneath a political veil? So I'm a steroid fuck huh? Ah what exactly is a "fuck" in your context?

Nice to have you out in the open tho... must get lonely and bitter out there.

I might be wrong, but isn't Armistice Day on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month - as in November 11? Or was that the OTHER Armistice Day?

Anyway, SINce some people name themselves on this website by moral infractions they may or may not commit, perhaps an alternate username here or somewhere else for someone else could possibly be RACISM.

Anyway, Fasching is simply too close to Christmas. I mean give us a break already, we need peace and contemplation periods in life, especially after that whole holiday madness.

And when I see those hats on elderly men, it reminds me of Musikantenstadl (be sure speakers are set on low - fekking idiot webmasters).

And while the rant is still on, does anyone ever watch Musikantenstadl and think: "Six million Jews had to die for this culture. With its echo music, horns, drum machines, and contrived body poses and smiles." ?

It's really amazing how many people turn up for Zillertaler Schürzenjäger. It makes you wonder about the collective mind of Germanic tribe.

(btw, check out the Schürzenjäger drummer, he really wants to rock. Alternatively one could play AC/DC Thunderstruck in the background http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvoeeq-BH4w and watch the Schurzenjäger video with no sound. Rock the House!)

OK, that is my frivolous, lunatic post for the month. See ya in February...

Don't be fucking daft!

Well, she is not Charley Garlic, she is the President of the German Jewish Community and thus, it is her duty to open her mouth and be in the media when some event is, as you yourself called it, "not appropriate".

I do not know, I would never call media whore and do name calling when the President of the Lesbian and Gay Association appears in the media to comment MOTSS issues.

Charlotte Knobloch's remark was translated from the article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung. She is not only upset that the parade was going to pass the monument, she seems to be upset that any Fasching event is planned for that day. I am convinced that there will be more such incidents in the Rhineland as well, and I marvel at the intolerance of a person whose job it seems to be to remind Germany of the lack in tolerance towards her religion and its followers in the past and sometimes present.
To put this dilemma on a personal level: Scogs' mother died on my birthday. So do we pass it in private, mourning for his loss, or do we get together with friends and celebrate, keeping her memory alive with a toast?

What a load of bullshit, sb. Intolerance? Did she say Karneval shouldn't be celebrated because celebrating other religions' happy days is an offense to hers? Did she say that people of the creed that celebrate Fasching should be deported or gassed? How on earth is it intolerance to ask of the government to honor and respect the day the government itself declared as a national day of remembrance of all victims of National Socialism, by holding other festive days on other dates?

And how on earth does your MILs regretful death have anything to do with this? Was she murdered? Was she murdered because of her race? Was she murdered because of her race in a plan to wipe it off the face of the earth? It's all grand and jolly to celebrate her memory with a toast, but is that the way you think people should remember the victims of the Nazis? By a costume parade where people get drunk and women hit on men randomly out of fun? What if I was running some kind of costume parade and decided to do it in NYC on 9.11.? What do you think the responses would be then? Would you call those responses intolerant and told people to celebrate the murder of those people by having a drunken parade on the streets, passing Ground Zero as we go?

I have nothing against Fasching and I enjoy that day as the next person, but if you decided on a memorial day for the actions in the not-so-faraway past of your country, the least you can do is respect it. Looks like the only intolerance in this thread is coming from you and people who hold similar views about disregarding a national memorial day.

Not in Munich, to be honest. There hadn't been a parade in Munich for over 35 years until the "Damischen Ritter" brought it back to life in 2006 (Holocaust Remembrance Day was established in Germany in 1996). As mentioned in the link sarabyrd provided, this year's parade will be the third. It's not that well-known yet, unlike the München Narrisch (Mad Munich) open-air parties on the last Sunday, Rosenmontag and Faschingsdienstag (Feb 3-5, 2008).

Fasching shifts around each year, depending on when Easter falls, and is very early this year, so this is the first time where the dates for the memorial and the parade have coincided. I'm not surprised the organisers didn't notice the clash immediately: although January 27th is now the official date for International Holocaust Remembrance Day it's not mentioned as a notable date in various diaries I've looked at. Once they were aware of the problem, however, the parade organisers found an easy and amicable solution.

I'd be interested in seeing the German wording of the complete SZ article, if anyone has it.

FWIW, I think that Stadtrat Thomas "Niederschwuchtel" of the Rosa Liste is a media whore too.

As mentioned above, the problem is that Fasching is a short season this year, there were only a very small number of days when a parade could be held.
You have to negotiate months in advance to get agreement with the city for events and it all has to be planned so as not to conflict with other stuff.

The organisers are 100% right to ask the city to change the route and I'm sure the city will. End of story.

Should Holocaust Remembrance Day be turned into a "quiet" public holiday perhaps?

See my former quote, Charlotte Knobloch seems to be upset about any observance of Fasching on 27 January.
No, Genie, you didn't say that we never respected it or any other imporant Jewish Day of Remembrance.
I said that the anniversary of Mum's death was a very personal anniversary. For Scogs and me it is a very personal question of mourning or celebrating, and Scogs and I have always given her a toast, either in private or in public. I never met her but a part of me reaches out to her every year on a day that I considered mine until I met him. But this is my birthday all the same, and most people that know me have heard about our dilemma. It is our private decision on how to deal with a death and birthday anniversary. I hope that we can show others that both belong together, no matter how negative they may appear. It will not change a mite about how we handle it.

I'll say again, your handling your MIL's passing away is indeed a private business and I respect anything you would decide about her. If you want to go to her grave and put flowers on it, if you want to sing and dance and have cartoons made in her name, if you want to piss her name in the snow in remembrance - I couldn't care less. It's your business and nobody but you and the rest of her loved ones has any bearing on it.

But this has absolutely no bearing on the discussion about this parade, as I tried to make clear before. Because in this land, observing a national memory day of the large list of victims of its previous regime is not a private issue. It's a national and social issue. Keeping this afloat and in memory will serve the best of this society for many different reasons (a discussion which is slightly tangential here so I will not enter it), and it's exactly these gestures, such as rerouting a parade like this or simply and easily moving it to another day, that broadcasts to anyone involved - we still remember, there is something to remember there, and we won't forget that easy. So it won't happen again. It's all cheesy and cliche-ridden, but it sound like that because most people don't need simple things like this explained to them.

Genie, I agree in rerouting the parade in Munich and re-scheduling it in Regensburg. I am against one group amonst many who are commemorated on that day kicking up a fuss. As I said, we can expect similar problems in NRW. And: Why have the Roma not protested against children dressed up as gypsies? I am surprised at the Jews monopolizing a common day of commemoration.

100% support the re-routing.
Don't know when the clash of dates became apparent but I suspect a move of the dates completely might not have simple or easy to do.